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Will Kemba and Fournier add wins?

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Will Kemba and Fournier will add a lot to our squad

No they wont add much to our winning percentage, we'll be about the same.
15
20%
No they will actually make us worse.
3
4%
Yes they will make us a little better with our winning percentage.
40
53%
Yes they will make us a lot better with our winning percentage
17
23%
 
Total votes: 75

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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#81 » by DLTGWH » Mon Sep 6, 2021 11:55 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
Our defense didn't suffer that much against Atlanta if we look at the numbers, although it felt like every Trae PNR led to a bucket.


Tell that to Clint Capella who had a much easier go of it bercause Mitch wasnt there to check him. Its easier to look good against older s,aller less mobile center ....


Chanel Bomber wrote:
The problem was that our centers couldn't make a play with the ball in their hands. That enabled McMillan to have Randle's primary defender take away his left hand, and funnel Randle to the help (Capela). We did not address that issue in the offseason. Mitch cannot make a play either, he's a rim finisher..


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..


Chanel Bomber wrote:
More shot creation helps, but doesn't address the biggest issue, which was Randle being taken away because of our centers' lack of versatility. If we replay the series now, the Hawks could still double Randle and stay home on our perimeter players. Fournier is not dominant enough as an ISO scorer to tilt the balance in our favor.

Which is why Obi needs to see minutes at the 5 and be developed as a 4/5 rather than strictly a 4 imo. More versatility, better spacing, more playmaking, more speed.



Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.

I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...

Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.


I know this is a Forny/Kemba thread -
But…Although Mitch and nerlins might fit within the same archetype as a rim runner, Mitch is significantly better at it. Mitch played half the games as nerlins last season but still finished with more dunks (84 to 76). He also completed at a higher % (.528 to .390). In your video at 5:05 in there a clip of nerlins being wide open with a lane to get to the rim for an dunk pass from randle but he just stands out in the wing. If you want you can verify stats if you want here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_shooting.html

So yes Mitch might and nerlins are similar but i think Mitch puts a lot more pressure at the rim than nerlins and would losen rhe hawk def a bit more than your probably giving credit for. Then obviously the def effect Mitch brings to halting the hawks P/R which is an entire different conversation.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#82 » by RHODEY » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:15 pm

DLTGWH wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..





Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.


I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...

Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.


I know this is a Forny/Kemba thread -
But…Although Mitch and nerlins might fit within the same archetype as a rim runner, Mitch is significantly better at it. Mitch played half the games as nerlins last season but still finished with more dunks (84 to 76). He also completed at a higher % (.528 to .390). In your video at 5:05 in there a clip of nerlins being wide open with a lane to get to the rim for an dunk pass from randle but he just stands out in the wing. If you want you can verify stats if you want here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_shooting.html

So yes Mitch might and nerlins are similar but i think Mitch puts a lot more pressure at the rim than nerlins and would losen rhe hawk def a bit more than your probably giving credit for. Then obviously the def effect Mitch brings to halting the hawks P/R which is an entire different conversation.



Dont think anybody would disagree. You last sentence sums it up. The point is we'll get his production back along with Kenba and Fournier in our starting lineup. The question is how much better (if at all) will that make us in comparison to the rest of the East.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#83 » by Capn'O » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:47 pm

FlashFlood wrote:Yes Kemba and Fournier will result in more regular season wins. Removing Elfrid's 20% 3pt shooting from the floor will open up the floor immensely. In fact, I would actually say that the team as currently constructed (4x40% 3pt shooters, and a 70% FG C) is an analytics wet dream. How many teams in the league can keep up with that kind of lineup if the Knicks decide to run and gun?

So, bold prediction, the Knicks are a top seed in the east next year. Even with the East's improvement and everyone returning healthy.

Now the real question is do Kemba and Fournier add post-season wins?


I think it's the opposite. We're a tougher postseason team now with more talent but we may not overachieve to the same extent in the regular season. We're probably capped at the 2nd round but who knows.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#84 » by Barcs » Mon Sep 6, 2021 5:03 pm

Kemba > Payton. Fournier > Bullock. They will improve barring injuries.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#85 » by rajajackal » Mon Sep 6, 2021 5:37 pm

Barcs wrote:Kemba > Payton. Fournier > Bullock. They will improve barring injuries.


usually this sort of logic is insufficient, but in this case, it really applies. neither kemba nor fournier seem to be chemistry killers. bullock was integral to the team identity last year, but hometown kemba is probably going to be way better to have around than sulky payton
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#86 » by RHODEY » Mon Sep 6, 2021 7:12 pm

HighRyzer83 wrote:Last year Knicks win percentage was .569, that equates to approx 47 wins in a full season.

You would think a healthy Mitch alone is worth about 2,3 more wins. I don't know how many games should result from upgrading the 1 dimensional Bullock, who's a streaky spot shooter, to a legit 3-tier scoring threat and even a better shooter.

But replacing that bum elfrid for a legit PG borderline all star, is worth at least like 5 more games.



Great point..and the new additions...Grimes and Deuce are x-factors that could push us even higher.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#87 » by Chanel Bomber » Mon Sep 6, 2021 8:02 pm

DLTGWH wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..





Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.

I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...

Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.


I know this is a Forny/Kemba thread -
But…Although Mitch and nerlins might fit within the same archetype as a rim runner, Mitch is significantly better at it. Mitch played half the games as nerlins last season but still finished with more dunks (84 to 76). He also completed at a higher % (.528 to .390). In your video at 5:05 in there a clip of nerlins being wide open with a lane to get to the rim for an dunk pass from randle but he just stands out in the wing. If you want you can verify stats if you want here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_shooting.html

So yes Mitch might and nerlins are similar but i think Mitch puts a lot more pressure at the rim than nerlins and would losen rhe hawk def a bit more than your probably giving credit for. Then obviously the def effect Mitch brings to halting the hawks P/R which is an entire different conversation.

You make a good point BUT where I disagree is that you seem to assume that Mitch is some enhanced version of Noel because of his finishing (and his vertical spacing I reckon).

Mitch does possess skills that Noel doesn't have, but the opposite is true as well.

Noel is a far better free throw shooter, whereas you can't trust Mitch at the line. At 49.1%, Mitch can be hacked and sent at the line for inefficient end-of-possession free throws. Noel also has a semi-reliable baby jumper, which Mitch hasn't yet attempted in the NBA, let alone proven to master. Mitch obviously has far better hands than Noel, but in terms of putting the ball on the floor or making a pass, they're pretty much on the same level.

Mitch would've done a better job defending the Hawks pick-and-roll but we didn't actually get killed on defense in that series. It's the offense that went completely dark according to our series offensive and defensive ratings. Noel is a pretty good defender himself when he doesn't have to guard post-up bigs that are stronger than him (like Jokic or Embiid).

I really don't think Mitch would've affected the Hawks gameplan to stop Randle in a significant way. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right. Hopefully he stays healthy and we can see how he performs against Atlanta on Christmas.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#88 » by HighRyzer83 » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:28 am

RHODEY wrote:
HighRyzer83 wrote:Last year Knicks win percentage was .569, that equates to approx 47 wins in a full season.

You would think a healthy Mitch alone is worth about 2,3 more wins. I don't know how many games should result from upgrading the 1 dimensional Bullock, who's a streaky spot shooter, to a legit 3-tier scoring threat and even a better shooter.

But replacing that bum elfrid for a legit PG borderline all star, is worth at least like 5 more games.



Great point..and the new additions...Grimes and Deuce are x-factors that could push us even higher.

Yeah the rookies look strong, they enhance our depth and defense but also our sophomores like toppin/IQ, had another year to develop and the team as a whole had another year to gel. Anything less than 47 games would factually be a regression, which I find unlikely considering the vast improvements we've made to our weaknesses.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#89 » by FlashFlood » Tue Sep 7, 2021 4:46 am

Capn'O wrote:I think it's the opposite. We're a tougher postseason team now with more talent but we may not overachieve to the same extent in the regular season. We're probably capped at the 2nd round but who knows.


Well, it certainly depends on the coach. The Knicks have enough firepower to go up-tempo in the regular season and coast. A top offense wrecks bottom feeders, and should result in (at least) a 50/50 split against playoff teams. Big offense also means big blowouts, which means more rest for the Knicks' work horses.

But it's Thibs, and who knows if he decides to play that way. Playing slow means less fast breaks against the Knicks too.

Agreed that there's enough talent here to get to the second round.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#90 » by aggo » Tue Sep 7, 2021 7:46 am

dude

kemba 17/6 is replacing a guy who put up 10/4
fournier 18/4/4 is replacing a guy who put up 10/1


the real question is whether kemba is completely shot or if he can play 70+ games but only at 25mpg.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#91 » by DickGrayson » Tue Sep 7, 2021 9:41 am

Kemba averages less than 2.2 turnovers for the season, Fournier also a guy who averages a lot of points without turning the ball over. This is a big reason why I loved acquiring these guys because we don't force our offense to be stagnant, the ball will be moving a lot with Barrett/Randle/Burks/Toppin/Rose to have scorers/shooters like Kemba and Evan is a vital strength not every team in the East has.

We potentially have a rotation where 3-5 guys can shoot 40% while Randle and Barrett feast. Not just role players, but legit 17-20 ppg guys.

I'd like for us to kill the NBA narrative you need an NBA superstar to win. I really want to see this core win it all as much as I did with Knickstape back in the 2010s.

We in good hands.

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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#92 » by Clyde_Style » Wed Sep 8, 2021 1:31 am

DickGrayson wrote:Kemba averages less than 2.2 turnovers for the season, Fournier also a guy who averages a lot of points without turning the ball over. This is a big reason why I loved acquiring these guys because we don't force our offense to be stagnant, the ball will be moving a lot with Barrett/Randle/Burks/Toppin/Rose to have scorers/shooters like Kemba and Evan is a vital strength not every team in the East has.

We potentially have a rotation where 3-5 guys can shoot 40% while Randle and Barrett feast. Not just role players, but legit 17-20 ppg guys.

I'd like for us to kill the NBA narrative you need an NBA superstar to win. I really want to see this core win it all as much as I did with Knickstape back in the 2010s.

We in good hands.

Knicks win 50+ games.


The NBA is wide open and there really is no superstar team that is a lock to go to the finals. Giannis is the closest thing to that now and even then I don't feel he guarantees they will get back to the finals. The Lakers are old. If ever there was a time to break through without going all in on a massive trade and sign deal for some perceived difference maker I feel the time is ripe for a team to go all the way just by virtue of building a deep roster that plays well together. If this team stays healthy enough they will be shooting for one of the top 3 slots in the East.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#93 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Sep 8, 2021 12:52 pm

aggo wrote:dude

kemba 17/6 is replacing a guy who put up 10/4
fournier 18/4/4 is replacing a guy who put up 10/1


the real question is whether kemba is completely shot or if he can play 70+ games but only at 25mpg.


This.

It kind of irks me that people don't think they'll make the Knicks better. With health being a concern for Kemba, which you covered.

But it's not just the stats, which I know that you know, I'm just expanding on your post.

Bullocks better than Fournier on defense. I get that. But Fournier isn't a terrible defender. But on offense, it's just not close, and it's not about the points, and I wouldn't care if Bullocks averaged 15 and Fournier 18, though Reggie didn't average 15 because he CAN'T.
Bullocks is basically a Novak at the 3 with D. A lesser Kyle Korver. A better Ellingthong. He does one thing well and it's shoot 3's. Mostly better at the spot up, but he'd cut some, but no one is confusing him with Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, Hondo Havlicek or even Doug F*cking McDermott in that regard. Fournier is a much more well rounded bball player. At least at the level of THJr, but with an actual bball IQ. He does a bit of everything and does them all well, but especially moves the ball and moves himself. And he can score and get his in a variety of ways. Bullock got his points one way. Well, about 98% of them. That alone makes the team better.

Then add Kemba over Payton? A dynamic guard capable of scoring all over the floor over a guy who couldn't shoot?

Team will be much better. Again, the wins might not jump up, because the east is better and maybe the Knicks got lucky in their streak etc. As Clyde_Style stated, a Thibs team should be prepared every night so maybe those regular season wins weren't so flukey after all.

Anyway, Knicks would have won 47 games if they went .500 in the 10 games not played. I'd say the new players are worth 3-5 wins, but again, lots of variables. Knicks will win between 47 and 52 games.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#94 » by Knicksfan1992 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 1:33 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
aggo wrote:dude

kemba 17/6 is replacing a guy who put up 10/4
fournier 18/4/4 is replacing a guy who put up 10/1


the real question is whether kemba is completely shot or if he can play 70+ games but only at 25mpg.


This.

It kind of irks me that people don't think they'll make the Knicks better. With health being a concern for Kemba, which you covered.

But it's not just the stats, which I know that you know, I'm just expanding on your post.

Bullocks better than Fournier on defense. I get that. But Fournier isn't a terrible defender. But on offense, it's just not close, and it's not about the points, and I wouldn't care if Bullocks averaged 15 and Fournier 18, though Reggie didn't average 15 because he CAN'T.
Bullocks is basically a Novak at the 3 with D. A lesser Kyle Korver. A better Ellingthong. He does one thing well and it's shoot 3's. Mostly better at the spot up, but he'd cut some, but no one is confusing him with Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, Hondo Havlicek or even Doug F*cking McDermott in that regard. Fournier is a much more well rounded bball player. At least at the level of THJr, but with an actual bball IQ. He does a bit of everything and does them all well, but especially moves the ball and moves himself. And he can score and get his in a variety of ways. Bullock got his points one way. Well, about 98% of them. That alone makes the team better.

Then add Kemba over Payton? A dynamic guard capable of scoring all over the floor over a guy who couldn't shoot?

Team will be much better. Again, the wins might not jump up, because the east is better and maybe the Knicks got lucky in their streak etc. As Clyde_Style stated, a Thibs team should be prepared every night so maybe those regular season wins weren't so flukey after all.

Anyway, Knicks would have won 47 games if they went .500 in the 10 games not played. I'd say the new players are worth 3-5 wins, but again, lots of variables. Knicks will win between 47 and 52 games.


I also think not only did the starting lineup get an upgrade, but people are forgetting that the Knicks may have had the best 2nd unit in the league last year and that whole squad is still here and had major growth potential with IQ/Toppin in their 2nd years.

The Knicks projected unit this year is likely to include the below 4:

Rose
IQ
Burks
Toppin


Last year that group posted a net rating of a whopping +14 together over a not insignificant 352 possessions...

Taking a macro look at it if you just filter lineups for when Rose and Quickley shared the floor, then the Knicks absolutely murdered teams...They shared the court for 893 possessions and had a net rating of +16.5! :o So even if Kemba and Fournier are having rough nights you can put in Rose and Quickley and expect the team to not miss a beat on a given night.

Basically the Knicks found a way to upgrade the starting unit while keeping one of the best benches in the league together around.

I think the depth of this team is the biggest reason to be bullish on them going into this season while hopefully they can squeeze the last bit of juice out of a former all-star's legs in his late prime.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#95 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Sep 8, 2021 2:00 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
aggo wrote:dude

kemba 17/6 is replacing a guy who put up 10/4
fournier 18/4/4 is replacing a guy who put up 10/1


the real question is whether kemba is completely shot or if he can play 70+ games but only at 25mpg.


This.

It kind of irks me that people don't think they'll make the Knicks better. With health being a concern for Kemba, which you covered.

But it's not just the stats, which I know that you know, I'm just expanding on your post.

Bullocks better than Fournier on defense. I get that. But Fournier isn't a terrible defender. But on offense, it's just not close, and it's not about the points, and I wouldn't care if Bullocks averaged 15 and Fournier 18, though Reggie didn't average 15 because he CAN'T.
Bullocks is basically a Novak at the 3 with D. A lesser Kyle Korver. A better Ellingthong. He does one thing well and it's shoot 3's. Mostly better at the spot up, but he'd cut some, but no one is confusing him with Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, Hondo Havlicek or even Doug F*cking McDermott in that regard. Fournier is a much more well rounded bball player. At least at the level of THJr, but with an actual bball IQ. He does a bit of everything and does them all well, but especially moves the ball and moves himself. And he can score and get his in a variety of ways. Bullock got his points one way. Well, about 98% of them. That alone makes the team better.

Then add Kemba over Payton? A dynamic guard capable of scoring all over the floor over a guy who couldn't shoot?

Team will be much better. Again, the wins might not jump up, because the east is better and maybe the Knicks got lucky in their streak etc. As Clyde_Style stated, a Thibs team should be prepared every night so maybe those regular season wins weren't so flukey after all.

Anyway, Knicks would have won 47 games if they went .500 in the 10 games not played. I'd say the new players are worth 3-5 wins, but again, lots of variables. Knicks will win between 47 and 52 games.


I also think not only did the starting lineup get an upgrade, but people are forgetting that the Knicks may have had the best 2nd unit in the league last year and that whole squad is still here and had major growth potential with IQ/Toppin in their 2nd years.

The Knicks projected unit this year is likely to include the below 4:

Rose
IQ
Burks
Toppin


Last year that group posted a net rating of a whopping +14 together over a not insignificant 352 possessions...

Taking a macro look at it if you just filter lineups for when Rose and Quickley shared the floor, then the Knicks absolutely murdered teams...They shared the court for 893 possessions and had a net rating of +16.5! :o So even if Kemba and Fournier are having rough nights you can put in Rose and Quickley and expect the team to not miss a beat on a given night.

Basically the Knicks found a way to upgrade the starting unit while keeping one of the best benches in the league together around.

I think the depth of this team is the biggest reason to be bullish on them going into this season while hopefully they can squeeze the last bit of juice out of a former all-star's legs in his late prime.


It also doesn't hurt that IQ has McBride and Grimes potentially pushing him for playing time. Also Burks, though Burks had to fend off Austin Rivers for a bit. Meaning, quality depth breeds competition, which makes everyone better, even if the rotation stays the same regarding IQ and Burks backing up the 2 and 3, mostly.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#96 » by Knicksfan1992 » Wed Sep 8, 2021 2:14 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
This.

It kind of irks me that people don't think they'll make the Knicks better. With health being a concern for Kemba, which you covered.

But it's not just the stats, which I know that you know, I'm just expanding on your post.

Bullocks better than Fournier on defense. I get that. But Fournier isn't a terrible defender. But on offense, it's just not close, and it's not about the points, and I wouldn't care if Bullocks averaged 15 and Fournier 18, though Reggie didn't average 15 because he CAN'T.
Bullocks is basically a Novak at the 3 with D. A lesser Kyle Korver. A better Ellingthong. He does one thing well and it's shoot 3's. Mostly better at the spot up, but he'd cut some, but no one is confusing him with Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, Hondo Havlicek or even Doug F*cking McDermott in that regard. Fournier is a much more well rounded bball player. At least at the level of THJr, but with an actual bball IQ. He does a bit of everything and does them all well, but especially moves the ball and moves himself. And he can score and get his in a variety of ways. Bullock got his points one way. Well, about 98% of them. That alone makes the team better.

Then add Kemba over Payton? A dynamic guard capable of scoring all over the floor over a guy who couldn't shoot?

Team will be much better. Again, the wins might not jump up, because the east is better and maybe the Knicks got lucky in their streak etc. As Clyde_Style stated, a Thibs team should be prepared every night so maybe those regular season wins weren't so flukey after all.

Anyway, Knicks would have won 47 games if they went .500 in the 10 games not played. I'd say the new players are worth 3-5 wins, but again, lots of variables. Knicks will win between 47 and 52 games.


I also think not only did the starting lineup get an upgrade, but people are forgetting that the Knicks may have had the best 2nd unit in the league last year and that whole squad is still here and had major growth potential with IQ/Toppin in their 2nd years.

The Knicks projected unit this year is likely to include the below 4:

Rose
IQ
Burks
Toppin


Last year that group posted a net rating of a whopping +14 together over a not insignificant 352 possessions...

Taking a macro look at it if you just filter lineups for when Rose and Quickley shared the floor, then the Knicks absolutely murdered teams...They shared the court for 893 possessions and had a net rating of +16.5! :o So even if Kemba and Fournier are having rough nights you can put in Rose and Quickley and expect the team to not miss a beat on a given night.

Basically the Knicks found a way to upgrade the starting unit while keeping one of the best benches in the league together around.

I think the depth of this team is the biggest reason to be bullish on them going into this season while hopefully they can squeeze the last bit of juice out of a former all-star's legs in his late prime.


It also doesn't hurt that IQ has McBride and Grimes potentially pushing him for playing time. Also Burks, though Burks had to fend off Austin Rivers for a bit. Meaning, quality depth breeds competition, which makes everyone better, even if the rotation stays the same regarding IQ and Burks backing up the 2 and 3, mostly.


Also it means that with Grimes and Deuce here there is almost zero chance Knox sees the floor in any scenario which is probably a good thing lol. Only way would be if Obi or Randle got hurt and there were some spare minutes at the 4 but even then you could likely bump RJ up to the 4 for a little bit or get away with playing Taj there for a few minutes here or there...
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#97 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Sep 8, 2021 2:19 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
I also think not only did the starting lineup get an upgrade, but people are forgetting that the Knicks may have had the best 2nd unit in the league last year and that whole squad is still here and had major growth potential with IQ/Toppin in their 2nd years.

The Knicks projected unit this year is likely to include the below 4:

Rose
IQ
Burks
Toppin


Last year that group posted a net rating of a whopping +14 together over a not insignificant 352 possessions...

Taking a macro look at it if you just filter lineups for when Rose and Quickley shared the floor, then the Knicks absolutely murdered teams...They shared the court for 893 possessions and had a net rating of +16.5! :o So even if Kemba and Fournier are having rough nights you can put in Rose and Quickley and expect the team to not miss a beat on a given night.

Basically the Knicks found a way to upgrade the starting unit while keeping one of the best benches in the league together around.

I think the depth of this team is the biggest reason to be bullish on them going into this season while hopefully they can squeeze the last bit of juice out of a former all-star's legs in his late prime.


It also doesn't hurt that IQ has McBride and Grimes potentially pushing him for playing time. Also Burks, though Burks had to fend off Austin Rivers for a bit. Meaning, quality depth breeds competition, which makes everyone better, even if the rotation stays the same regarding IQ and Burks backing up the 2 and 3, mostly.


Also it means that with Grimes and Deuce here there is almost zero chance Knox sees the floor in any scenario which is probably a good thing lol. Only way would be if Obi or Randle got hurt and there were some spare minutes at the 4 but even then you could likely bump RJ up to the 4 for a little bit or get away with playing Taj there for a few minutes here or there...


Unless the Knicks feel that there is some secret level of Knox to unlock, if that Josh Jackson for Knox and a 2nd is true, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and that's knowing that Josh Jackson won't play much at all either and that he has the most resting b*tch face of any NBA player. Knicks have a sh*t ton of future 2nds and again, if their internal scouting on Knox is correct that he doesn't have a higher level to unlock, then it combines two assets of low-ish quality (Knox and a 2nd round pick) into a decent, if not good, basketball player. Josh Jackson isn't great, but it's possible as inclusion in a trade, a team might value him more than Knox. It's an extremely small incremental upgrade asset wise, but it exists, plus JJ is actually more useful to the Knicks in the present, albeit in a very limited role.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#98 » by BugginOut » Thu Sep 9, 2021 12:31 am

thebuzzardman wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
It also doesn't hurt that IQ has McBride and Grimes potentially pushing him for playing time. Also Burks, though Burks had to fend off Austin Rivers for a bit. Meaning, quality depth breeds competition, which makes everyone better, even if the rotation stays the same regarding IQ and Burks backing up the 2 and 3, mostly.


Also it means that with Grimes and Deuce here there is almost zero chance Knox sees the floor in any scenario which is probably a good thing lol. Only way would be if Obi or Randle got hurt and there were some spare minutes at the 4 but even then you could likely bump RJ up to the 4 for a little bit or get away with playing Taj there for a few minutes here or there...


Unless the Knicks feel that there is some secret level of Knox to unlock, if that Josh Jackson for Knox and a 2nd is true, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and that's knowing that Josh Jackson won't play much at all either and that he has the most resting b*tch face of any NBA player. Knicks have a sh*t ton of future 2nds and again, if their internal scouting on Knox is correct that he doesn't have a higher level to unlock, then it combines two assets of low-ish quality (Knox and a 2nd round pick) into a decent, if not good, basketball player. Josh Jackson isn't great, but it's possible as inclusion in a trade, a team might value him more than Knox. It's an extremely small incremental upgrade asset wise, but it exists, plus JJ is actually more useful to the Knicks in the present, albeit in a very limited role.

I disagree. We are better off keeping Knox so that he can be used as a throw in for a trade mid season if needed. Similar to how we trade DSJ and a 2nd for Rose.

Josh Jackson isn’t going to move the needle, but having Knox here to trade as a “young player with potential” will allow us to use his contract to match salaries and save us from potentially having to burn multiple picks if we need a trade.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#99 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:21 am

BugginOut wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:
Also it means that with Grimes and Deuce here there is almost zero chance Knox sees the floor in any scenario which is probably a good thing lol. Only way would be if Obi or Randle got hurt and there were some spare minutes at the 4 but even then you could likely bump RJ up to the 4 for a little bit or get away with playing Taj there for a few minutes here or there...


Unless the Knicks feel that there is some secret level of Knox to unlock, if that Josh Jackson for Knox and a 2nd is true, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and that's knowing that Josh Jackson won't play much at all either and that he has the most resting b*tch face of any NBA player. Knicks have a sh*t ton of future 2nds and again, if their internal scouting on Knox is correct that he doesn't have a higher level to unlock, then it combines two assets of low-ish quality (Knox and a 2nd round pick) into a decent, if not good, basketball player. Josh Jackson isn't great, but it's possible as inclusion in a trade, a team might value him more than Knox. It's an extremely small incremental upgrade asset wise, but it exists, plus JJ is actually more useful to the Knicks in the present, albeit in a very limited role.

I disagree. We are better off keeping Knox so that he can be used as a throw in for a trade mid season if needed. Similar to how we trade DSJ and a 2nd for Rose.

Josh Jackson isn’t going to move the needle, but having Knox here to trade as a “young player with potential” will allow us to use his contract to match salaries and save us from potentially having to burn multiple picks if we need a trade.


Fair enough. We have to trust they have enough intel on how other teams view them. Knox was drafted 9th, right? So his salary this year is around 8 million? Not a bad piece to include with someone else, true.
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Re: Will Kemba and Fournier add wins? 

Post#100 » by FreeSpiritNY » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:25 am

DLTGWH wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
RHODEY wrote:


Ehh but with better defense on the floor its less of a "problem" I think the problem was that ATL has shooters from the swing positions up the wazoo.... Meanwhile we only had burnt out Randle and burnt out Rose..





Yeah that's where we disagree I do think it addresses the biggest issue. Mitch or Noel not being more offensively versatile isn't the biggest issue(to me) . I think its actually pretty minor when you consider what they bring defensively and all the scoring we have on the team this year.

I also think to you selliingn Fournier short. I believe dude is just what he need and when you consider all the other 20ppg options on this team he's a perfect fit. He's alpha enough to get his but he also plays well within the team framework with his heady play . Just watch the videos I left in this thread...

Noel's defensive contributions didn't matter much when Capela was doubling off of him to basically double Randle.

Even when Rose and IQ were sharing minutes at PG after Payton got benched, the Knicks were playing 4 shooters around our centers and it still didn't matter.

Watch this video:



Mitch doesn't solve this issue. He can't make plays with the ball either, and he actually has less range than Taj and Noel, and he's a worse free throw shooter than both of them. Yes, Mitch has better hands than Noel which helps with the catch, and he finishes around the rim better than Taj, but he's not putting fear into anyone's hearts offensively. The Hawks' gameplan would be the exact same with Mitch on the floor.

Fournier helps in that he can create his own shot - but that doesn't change anything about the fact that our best player (Randle) was rendered ineffective because of our lack of skill at center.


I know this is a Forny/Kemba thread -
But…Although Mitch and nerlins might fit within the same archetype as a rim runner, Mitch is significantly better at it. Mitch played half the games as nerlins last season but still finished with more dunks (84 to 76). He also completed at a higher % (.528 to .390). In your video at 5:05 in there a clip of nerlins being wide open with a lane to get to the rim for an dunk pass from randle but he just stands out in the wing. If you want you can verify stats if you want here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_shooting.html

So yes Mitch might and nerlins are similar but i think Mitch puts a lot more pressure at the rim than nerlins and would losen rhe hawk def a bit more than your probably giving credit for. Then obviously the def effect Mitch brings to halting the hawks P/R which is an entire different conversation.


So your telling me that if Mitch was on the floor and basically zero’s out Clint along with being a better offensive rebounder and a bigger lob threat doesn’t solve our problem?

Did you really just say fourneir snd Kemba won’t help?

Our problem was everyone standing around and waiting for someone to do something. That isn’t happening this year.

We would dominate the hawks if we had this team last year.

Bullock did 0 in the playoffs. If Randle still sucked he has someone to iso or create and he likes to move around and so does Kemba. The thing is also now for the whole game you got a attacking guards who not only can attack but they can shoot and have amazing vision. I would rather them get 4 assist each than the lam me pass to the side assist where there is no creation.

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