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HerSports85 wrote:So unlike DSJ, Frank got an actual contract, not a camp invite.

MadGrinch wrote:The wild thing is Thibs did what is expected of him which was be a defensive guy ...but did it much better than expected , he turned the Knicks into a defensive powerhouse , they went from 23rd to 3rd in defense ...without Frank, so what did he need to play him for?

the team only went from 28th to 23rd on offense and most of that improvement was Derrick Rose.

The Mavs on the other hand are led by a generational talent on offense in Luka who literally had the most efficient offense in nba history at the time in 2020, but also a defense that 18th in the league , last season that defense slipped to 20th .

in addition KP has been mediocre , a sore spot for the Mavs especially in the playoffs,

as a player Frank's skillset matches up, he can sit in a corner and make 3s and has been among the league's best in corner 3s the last 2 seasons , he's good defender and the Mavs have poor defenders at the point guard , in addition KP has proven chemistry with him, the player line ups featuring them both were the Knicks best. KP was even campaigning for Frank to start as a rookie alongside him.

I honestly think whereas Frank was superfluous as a Knick, he starts for the Mavs, or he doesn't play at all, it makes little sense to play him with Brunson with whom they would need more offense from other spots and Ntiikina provides that inconsistently , but with Luka and KP he wouldn't need to do anything offensively besides shoot corner 3s and feed KP the ball,

so i think it works out for him and them.

MadGrinch wrote:The wild thing is Thibs did what is expected of him which was be a defensive guy ...but did it much better than expected , he turned the Knicks into a defensive powerhouse , they went from 23rd to 3rd in defense ...without Frank, so what did he need to play him for?

the team only went from 28th to 23rd on offense and most of that improvement was Derrick Rose.

The Mavs on the other hand are led by a generational talent on offense in Luka who literally had the most efficient offense in nba history at the time in 2020, but also a defense that 18th in the league , last season that defense slipped to 20th .

in addition KP has been mediocre , a sore spot for the Mavs especially in the playoffs,

as a player Frank's skillset matches up, he can sit in a corner and make 3s and has been among the league's best in corner 3s the last 2 seasons , he's good defender and the Mavs have poor defenders at the point guard , in addition KP has proven chemistry with him, the player line ups featuring them both were the Knicks best. KP was even campaigning for Frank to start as a rookie alongside him.

I honestly think whereas Frank was superfluous as a Knick, he starts for the Mavs, or he doesn't play at all, it makes little sense to play him with Brunson with whom they would need more offense from other spots and Ntiikina provides that inconsistently , but with Luka and KP he wouldn't need to do anything offensively besides shoot corner 3s and feed KP the ball,

so i think it works out for him and them.

Gravy wrote:

MadGrinch wrote:The wild thing is Thibs did what is expected of him which was be a defensive guy ...but did it much better than expected , he turned the Knicks into a defensive powerhouse , they went from 23rd to 3rd in defense ...without Frank, so what did he need to play him for?

the team only went from 28th to 23rd on offense and most of that improvement was Derrick Rose.

The Mavs on the other hand are led by a generational talent on offense in Luka who literally had the most efficient offense in nba history at the time in 2020, but also a defense that 18th in the league , last season that defense slipped to 20th .

in addition KP has been mediocre , a sore spot for the Mavs especially in the playoffs,

as a player Frank's skillset matches up, he can sit in a corner and make 3s and has been among the league's best in corner 3s the last 2 seasons , he's good defender and the Mavs have poor defenders at the point guard , in addition KP has proven chemistry with him, the player line ups featuring them both were the Knicks best. KP was even campaigning for Frank to start as a rookie alongside him.

I honestly think whereas Frank was superfluous as a Knick, he starts for the Mavs, or he doesn't play at all, it makes little sense to play him with Brunson with whom they would need more offense from other spots and Ntiikina provides that inconsistently , but with Luka and KP he wouldn't need to do anything offensively besides shoot corner 3s and feed KP the ball,

so i think it works out for him and them.

You believe they would start Frank over Tim Hardaway or Reggie Bullock?

Capn'O wrote:^They might start him over Bullock to give the bench some punch if they feel the SL has enough offense. Obv Bullock is better but maybe he becomes a Super Sub. I think Frank will get minutes in Dallas either way but we'll see. He's guaranteed nothing.

Capn'O wrote:^They might start him over Bullock to give the bench some punch if they feel the SL has enough offense. Obv Bullock is better but maybe he becomes a Super Sub. I think Frank will get minutes in Dallas either way but we'll see. He's guaranteed nothing.

Gravy wrote:

Capn'O wrote:^They might start him over Bullock to give the bench some punch if they feel the SL has enough offense. Obv Bullock is better but maybe he becomes a Super Sub. I think Frank will get minutes in Dallas either way but we'll see. He's guaranteed nothing.

So, their version of the Payton-Rose maneuver

Capn'O wrote:^They might start him over Bullock to give the bench some punch if they feel the SL has enough offense. Obv Bullock is better but maybe he becomes a Super Sub. I think Frank will get minutes in Dallas either way but we'll see. He's guaranteed nothing.

moocow007 wrote:My take on Frank starting with the Mavs especially focused on the rationale that he proved he can be a real good 3 point shooter from the corner...

Yes. Frank shot a crazy percentage from 3 last season at an eye popping 47.9%. And yep most of them were corner 3's. Great right? But that percentage was only based on 48 total attempts last season and accounted for just 1.5 attempts per game. So I don't know that that's proof that he's now a 3 point shooter forget about a starting caliber 3 point shooter.

But let's assume that his 3 point shooting really did drastically improve sufficient to be a bench 3 and D type player. We now need to try to determine whether that 1.5 attempts per game will translate if he were to move into the starting lineup and take an average number of attempts that a starting 3&D player takes (which in today's NBA is roughly 6 3-point attempts a game).

We're talking about transitioning from a situational only when you see the opportunity bench shooter to someone that actually has to shoot in volume and with opposing defenses more focused on you. One of the things about shooting 3's is the getting good looks at the basket right? It's basketball 101.

So what creates good open looks? One of the main things about starting caliber SG's is that they can score...not just shoot...but score. Talking about their ability score on multiple levels. It forces opposing defenders and defenses honest, leaving them guessing and not allowing the defenders/defensives to focus on defending that offensive player one way. Right?

To which, while Frank shot a heck of great 47.9% from 3 last season, he shot an absolutely abysmal 19.4% from 2. That is just brutal. It really highlighted the fact that he simply could not create anything offensively other than shooting a 3.

Now if we are going to assume that the 47.9% is for real (or near real) we should be fair and assume that that 19.4% from 2 is also quite real (or near real). At which point, a starting caliber SG that shoots only 19.4% from 2? I don't know of any starting SG that basically can't do anything but shoot 3's. And before anyone mention a guy like Danny Green (3&D guy that started most of his career that wasn't spectacular offensively), the lowest 2 point % Green ever managed in a season was 37.6%.

Will having Luca Doncic on the team help get Frank better (quicker) looks from the corner? Sure. But Luca can only do so much when his backcourt running mate can't do anything for himself off the dribble. Not only that, it now allow opposing teams to focus more of the defense on him. Realize the Mavs offense (especially in crunch time) is basically just Luca CLEARLY the most dominant player. Now you want to replace a guy like THJr who, as many faults as he has, actually is a scorer, for a guy (Frank) that has never shown he can even be a scorer off the bench? Just because of his defense? But even if so, ok, Reggie Bullock's defensive rating and DBPM was better than Franks last season. So he would be getting the starting nod (with THJr coming off the bench to provide bench offense...which they really don't need actually) over Frank cause Bullock at least actually showed he can take volume 3's befitting what a starting caliber player needs to take and make.

So again, Frank starting is a pie in the sky hope. Can he? Sure. Anything can happen. Quentin Grimes can turn out to be the Dillon Brooks (also a 2nd round pick who looks like he may be on his way to be a future star) and the Knicks would have struck gold in the 2nd round.

And no this is not an attempt to deface the greatness that is (or will be) Frank. It's about trying to be realistic and honest here guys.

moocow007 wrote:My take on Frank starting with the Mavs especially focused on the rationale that he proved he can be a real good 3 point shooter from the corner...

Yes. Frank shot a crazy percentage from 3 last season at an eye popping 47.9%. And yep most of them were corner 3's. Great right? But that percentage was only based on 48 total attempts last season and accounted for just 1.5 attempts per game. So I don't know that that's proof that he's now a 3 point shooter forget about a starting caliber 3 point shooter.

But let's assume that his 3 point shooting really did drastically improve sufficient to be a bench 3 and D type player. We now need to try to determine whether that 1.5 attempts per game will translate if he were to move into the starting lineup and take an average number of attempts that a starting 3&D player takes (which in today's NBA is roughly 6 3-point attempts a game).

We're talking about transitioning from a situational only when you see the opportunity bench shooter to someone that actually has to shoot in volume and with opposing defenses more focused on you. One of the things about shooting 3's is the getting good looks at the basket right? It's basketball 101.

So what creates good open looks? One of the main things about starting caliber SG's is that they can score...not just shoot...but score. Talking about their ability score on multiple levels. It forces opposing defenders and defenses honest, leaving them guessing and not allowing the defenders/defensives to focus on defending that offensive player one way. Right?

To which, while Frank shot a heck of great 47.9% from 3 last season, he shot an absolutely abysmal 19.4% from 2. That is just brutal. It really highlighted the fact that he simply could not create anything offensively other than shooting a 3.

Now if we are going to assume that the 47.9% is for real (or near real) we should be fair and assume that that 19.4% from 2 is also quite real (or near real). At which point, a starting caliber SG that shoots only 19.4% from 2? I don't know of any starting SG that basically can't do anything but shoot 3's. And before anyone mention a guy like Danny Green (3&D guy that started most of his career that wasn't spectacular offensively), the lowest 2 point % Green ever managed in a season was 37.6%.

Will having Luca Doncic on the team help get Frank better (quicker) looks from the corner? Sure. But Luca can only do so much when his backcourt running mate can't do anything for himself off the dribble. Not only that, it now allow opposing teams to focus more of the defense on him. Realize the Mavs offense (especially in crunch time) is basically just Luca CLEARLY the most dominant player. Now you want to replace a guy like THJr who, as many faults as he has, actually is a scorer, for a guy (Frank) that has never shown he can even be a scorer off the bench? Just because of his defense? But even if so, ok, Reggie Bullock's defensive rating and DBPM was better than Franks last season. So he would be getting the starting nod (with THJr coming off the bench to provide bench offense...which they really don't need actually) over Frank cause Bullock at least actually showed he can take volume 3's befitting what a starting caliber player needs to take and make.

So again, Frank starting is a pie in the sky hope. Can he? Sure. Anything can happen. Quentin Grimes can turn out to be the Dillon Brooks (also a 2nd round pick who looks like he may be on his way to be a future star) and the Knicks would have struck gold in the 2nd round.

And no this is not an attempt to deface the greatness that is (or will be) Frank. It's about trying to be realistic and honest here guys.

robillionaire wrote:

moocow007 wrote:My take on Frank starting with the Mavs especially focused on the rationale that he proved he can be a real good 3 point shooter from the corner...

Yes. Frank shot a crazy percentage from 3 last season at an eye popping 47.9%. And yep most of them were corner 3's. Great right? But that percentage was only based on 48 total attempts last season and accounted for just 1.5 attempts per game. So I don't know that that's proof that he's now a 3 point shooter forget about a starting caliber 3 point shooter.

But let's assume that his 3 point shooting really did drastically improve sufficient to be a bench 3 and D type player. We now need to try to determine whether that 1.5 attempts per game will translate if he were to move into the starting lineup and take an average number of attempts that a starting 3&D player takes (which in today's NBA is roughly 6 3-point attempts a game).

We're talking about transitioning from a situational only when you see the opportunity bench shooter to someone that actually has to shoot in volume and with opposing defenses more focused on you. One of the things about shooting 3's is the getting good looks at the basket right? It's basketball 101.

So what creates good open looks? One of the main things about starting caliber SG's is that they can score...not just shoot...but score. Talking about their ability score on multiple levels. It forces opposing defenders and defenses honest, leaving them guessing and not allowing the defenders/defensives to focus on defending that offensive player one way. Right?

To which, while Frank shot a heck of great 47.9% from 3 last season, he shot an absolutely abysmal 19.4% from 2. That is just brutal. It really highlighted the fact that he simply could not create anything offensively other than shooting a 3.

Now if we are going to assume that the 47.9% is for real (or near real) we should be fair and assume that that 19.4% from 2 is also quite real (or near real). At which point, a starting caliber SG that shoots only 19.4% from 2? I don't know of any starting SG that basically can't do anything but shoot 3's. And before anyone mention a guy like Danny Green (3&D guy that started most of his career that wasn't spectacular offensively), the lowest 2 point % Green ever managed in a season was 37.6%.

Will having Luca Doncic on the team help get Frank better (quicker) looks from the corner? Sure. But Luca can only do so much when his backcourt running mate can't do anything for himself off the dribble. Not only that, it now allow opposing teams to focus more of the defense on him. Realize the Mavs offense (especially in crunch time) is basically just Luca CLEARLY the most dominant player. Now you want to replace a guy like THJr who, as many faults as he has, actually is a scorer, for a guy (Frank) that has never shown he can even be a scorer off the bench? Just because of his defense? But even if so, ok, Reggie Bullock's defensive rating and DBPM was better than Franks last season. So he would be getting the starting nod (with THJr coming off the bench to provide bench offense...which they really don't need actually) over Frank cause Bullock at least actually showed he can take volume 3's befitting what a starting caliber player needs to take and make.

So again, Frank starting is a pie in the sky hope. Can he? Sure. Anything can happen. Quentin Grimes can turn out to be the Dillon Brooks (also a 2nd round pick who looks like he may be on his way to be a future star) and the Knicks would have struck gold in the 2nd round.

And no this is not an attempt to deface the greatness that is (or will be) Frank. It's about trying to be realistic and honest here guys.

I appreciate the attempt to be realistic and honest, however I expect Frank to take the starting PG job from Luka by the end of the year, once they see how much his defense impacts games and when they see how great his chemistry is with KP, THJ, and Bullock. Luka might just be the odd man out if they don't want to give up 130 ppg. If the Mavs can't see this, Cuban should fire the entire front office and sell the team. If he was smart he would hire Clarence Gaines.

moocow007 wrote:My take on Frank starting with the Mavs especially focused on the rationale that he proved he can be a real good 3 point shooter from the corner...

Yes. Frank shot a crazy percentage from 3 last season at an eye popping 47.9%. And yep most of them were corner 3's. Great right? But that percentage was only based on 48 total attempts last season and accounted for just 1.5 attempts per game. So I don't know that that's proof that he's now a 3 point shooter forget about a starting caliber 3 point shooter.

But let's assume that his 3 point shooting really did drastically improve sufficient to be a bench 3 and D type player. We now need to try to determine whether that 1.5 attempts per game will translate if he were to move into the starting lineup and take an average number of attempts that a starting 3&D player takes (which in today's NBA is roughly 6 3-point attempts a game).

We're talking about transitioning from a situational only when you see the opportunity bench shooter to someone that actually has to shoot in volume and with opposing defenses more focused on you. One of the things about shooting 3's is the getting good looks at the basket right? It's basketball 101.

So what creates good open looks? One of the main things about starting caliber SG's is that they can score...not just shoot...but score. Talking about their ability score on multiple levels. It forces opposing defenders and defenses honest, leaving them guessing and not allowing the defenders/defensives to focus on defending that offensive player one way. Right?

To which, while Frank shot a heck of great 47.9% from 3 last season, he shot an absolutely abysmal 19.4% from 2. That is just brutal. It really highlighted the fact that he simply could not create anything offensively other than shooting a 3.

Now if we are going to assume that the 47.9% is for real (or near real) we should be fair and assume that that 19.4% from 2 is also quite real (or near real). At which point, a starting caliber SG that shoots only 19.4% from 2? I don't know of any starting SG that basically can't do anything but shoot 3's. And before anyone mention a guy like Danny Green (3&D guy that started most of his career that wasn't spectacular offensively), the lowest 2 point % Green ever managed in a season was 37.6%.

Will having Luca Doncic on the team help get Frank better (quicker) looks from the corner? Sure. But Luca can only do so much when his backcourt running mate can't do anything for himself off the dribble. Not only that, it now allow opposing teams to focus more of the defense on him. Realize the Mavs offense (especially in crunch time) is basically just Luca CLEARLY the most dominant player. Now you want to replace a guy like THJr who, as many faults as he has, actually is a scorer, for a guy (Frank) that has never shown he can even be a scorer off the bench? Just because of his defense? But even if so, ok, Reggie Bullock's defensive rating and DBPM was better than Franks last season. So he would be getting the starting nod (with THJr coming off the bench to provide bench offense...which they really don't need actually) over Frank cause Bullock at least actually showed he can take volume 3's befitting what a starting caliber player needs to take and make.

So again, Frank starting is a pie in the sky hope. Can he? Sure. Anything can happen. Quentin Grimes can turn out to be the Dillon Brooks (also a 2nd round pick who looks like he may be on his way to be a future star) and the Knicks would have struck gold in the 2nd round.

And no this is not an attempt to deface the greatness that is (or will be) Frank. It's about trying to be realistic and honest here guys. And yes, I can be honest about anyone else as well if we want to discuss. Just that Frank seems to still be such a hot topic of discussion.

robillionaire wrote:

moocow007 wrote:My take on Frank starting with the Mavs especially focused on the rationale that he proved he can be a real good 3 point shooter from the corner...

Yes. Frank shot a crazy percentage from 3 last season at an eye popping 47.9%. And yep most of them were corner 3's. Great right? But that percentage was only based on 48 total attempts last season and accounted for just 1.5 attempts per game. So I don't know that that's proof that he's now a 3 point shooter forget about a starting caliber 3 point shooter.

But let's assume that his 3 point shooting really did drastically improve sufficient to be a bench 3 and D type player. We now need to try to determine whether that 1.5 attempts per game will translate if he were to move into the starting lineup and take an average number of attempts that a starting 3&D player takes (which in today's NBA is roughly 6 3-point attempts a game).

We're talking about transitioning from a situational only when you see the opportunity bench shooter to someone that actually has to shoot in volume and with opposing defenses more focused on you. One of the things about shooting 3's is the getting good looks at the basket right? It's basketball 101.

So what creates good open looks? One of the main things about starting caliber SG's is that they can score...not just shoot...but score. Talking about their ability score on multiple levels. It forces opposing defenders and defenses honest, leaving them guessing and not allowing the defenders/defensives to focus on defending that offensive player one way. Right?

To which, while Frank shot a heck of great 47.9% from 3 last season, he shot an absolutely abysmal 19.4% from 2. That is just brutal. It really highlighted the fact that he simply could not create anything offensively other than shooting a 3.

Now if we are going to assume that the 47.9% is for real (or near real) we should be fair and assume that that 19.4% from 2 is also quite real (or near real). At which point, a starting caliber SG that shoots only 19.4% from 2? I don't know of any starting SG that basically can't do anything but shoot 3's. And before anyone mention a guy like Danny Green (3&D guy that started most of his career that wasn't spectacular offensively), the lowest 2 point % Green ever managed in a season was 37.6%.

Will having Luca Doncic on the team help get Frank better (quicker) looks from the corner? Sure. But Luca can only do so much when his backcourt running mate can't do anything for himself off the dribble. Not only that, it now allow opposing teams to focus more of the defense on him. Realize the Mavs offense (especially in crunch time) is basically just Luca CLEARLY the most dominant player. Now you want to replace a guy like THJr who, as many faults as he has, actually is a scorer, for a guy (Frank) that has never shown he can even be a scorer off the bench? Just because of his defense? But even if so, ok, Reggie Bullock's defensive rating and DBPM was better than Franks last season. So he would be getting the starting nod (with THJr coming off the bench to provide bench offense...which they really don't need actually) over Frank cause Bullock at least actually showed he can take volume 3's befitting what a starting caliber player needs to take and make.

So again, Frank starting is a pie in the sky hope. Can he? Sure. Anything can happen. Quentin Grimes can turn out to be the Dillon Brooks (also a 2nd round pick who looks like he may be on his way to be a future star) and the Knicks would have struck gold in the 2nd round.

And no this is not an attempt to deface the greatness that is (or will be) Frank. It's about trying to be realistic and honest here guys.

I appreciate the attempt to be realistic and honest, however I expect Frank to take the starting PG job from Luka by the end of the year, once they see how much his defense impacts games and when they see how great his chemistry is with KP, THJ, and Bullock. Luka might just be the odd man out if they don't want to give up 130 ppg. If the Mavs can't see this, Cuban should fire the entire front office and sell the team. If he was smart he would hire Clarence Gaines.

Gravy wrote:

MadGrinch wrote:The wild thing is Thibs did what is expected of him which was be a defensive guy ...but did it much better than expected , he turned the Knicks into a defensive powerhouse , they went from 23rd to 3rd in defense ...without Frank, so what did he need to play him for?

the team only went from 28th to 23rd on offense and most of that improvement was Derrick Rose.

The Mavs on the other hand are led by a generational talent on offense in Luka who literally had the most efficient offense in nba history at the time in 2020, but also a defense that 18th in the league , last season that defense slipped to 20th .

in addition KP has been mediocre , a sore spot for the Mavs especially in the playoffs,

as a player Frank's skillset matches up, he can sit in a corner and make 3s and has been among the league's best in corner 3s the last 2 seasons , he's good defender and the Mavs have poor defenders at the point guard , in addition KP has proven chemistry with him, the player line ups featuring them both were the Knicks best. KP was even campaigning for Frank to start as a rookie alongside him.

I honestly think whereas Frank was superfluous as a Knick, he starts for the Mavs, or he doesn't play at all, it makes little sense to play him with Brunson with whom they would need more offense from other spots and Ntiikina provides that inconsistently , but with Luka and KP he wouldn't need to do anything offensively besides shoot corner 3s and feed KP the ball,

so i think it works out for him and them.

You believe they would start Frank over Tim Hardaway or Reggie Bullock?