PG: Pistons vs Knicks

[3toheadmelo]

Just some perspective then is what I think helps with all of that. Randle is entering his 8th season in the NBA and he only hit his stride in his 7th year. This is only RJ's third season and he's only 21.

yes but Randle averaged 20 PPG two years prior to last season. and i still have flashbacks of him destroying KP when he was on the Lakers

like I said I’m going to be patient with RJ. but I’ll still talk about what he needs to get better at.

In Randle’s 3rd season he averaged 13 PPG on 54% TS%. And he was a year older than RJ is now.

RJ is still way ahead of schedule when it comes to his development. We just assume he should be better than he is because he plays a complete game at 21 years old

that was basically Randle’s second season since he out his whole rookie season.

and even then Randle was flashing his mid range game… something we still haven’t seen from rj.

[3toheadmelo]

Not a max player. Not a legit 1st or 2nd option on a contender. Write it down if you like. I ain’t gonna be wrong lol

people think we’re trolling but that’s just how we really feel. he’s a good role player but I have doubts of him being a star in the future

[BugginOut]

RJ doesn’t need to take midrange pull-ups to be an effective player. Harden doesn’t take mid range shots at all and he is one of the greatest scorers of all time.

What RJ needs to do is take more pull up 3s, finish at the rim and draw fouls.

The lack of pull up 3s may be due to lack of ability or it may be due to design. Randle and Kemba are the only starters taking pull up 3s. Even Fournier who averaged three pull up 3s a game last year is shooting mostly off C&S.

Finishing is still the biggest concern, if RJ can’t get some wiggle at the rim or start drawing fouls it will really limit RJ’s ceiling as a player

That's why Harden hasn't won anything and someone like Kawhi has, the mid-range game is really what separates guys in the playoffs. Even Giannis was hitting some mid post jumpers in the finals, you gotta be able to do something in between the rim and 3 point line as a wing.

Shooting 3’s and getting to the rim to break down defenses is still the most important aspect of basketball. Yes the midrange is necessary, but even players like Lebron and Luka mostly rely on getting to the rim and have limited midrange games.

It’s nice to have a midrange assassin like Booker and Middleton on your team, and hopefully Randle can be that guy for us. But for RJ, as a 2nd option, to have a Harden like game with good defense would not be the worse thing in the world for us.

[3toheadmelo]

i don’t get the harden and rj comparisons besides being left handed players. their games are completely different and not really comparable.

[Clyde_Style]

im not saying to give up on him though and he’s an excellent role player. but I think it’s absolutely fair to discuss his expectations since we drafted him at #3. if we’re drafting someone that high the expectations for that player is that they will be a star at some point. and we aren’t really seeing those flashes. ill continue to be patient with him but that won’t stop me from talking about his limitations and what he needs to get better at. we have to face reality at some point.

Just some perspective then is what I think helps with all of that. Randle is entering his 8th season in the NBA and he only hit his stride in his 7th year. This is only RJ's third season and he's only 21.

yes but Randle averaged 20 PPG two years prior to last season. and i still have flashbacks of him destroying KP when he was on the Lakers

like I said I’m going to be patient with RJ. but I’ll still talk about what he needs to get better at.

sure, I'm never saying don't talk about areas of improvement. I've merely been making a point no one else is making about how RJ's perceived lack of athleticism or creativity may actually be overcome by his superior mindset, work ethic and how methodically he drills his skills and then will chain them together.

The point about patience is that some have already decided he won't be able to do certain things ever or they're basing their appraisal of his off-season evolution on 3 pre-season games when there is already a clear pattern of his skills morphing as the season progresses and so far not in the first part of each season. That's the impatience I'm addressing, not the critiquing of what he needs to work on which is just natural to discuss

[Clyde_Style]

i don’t get the harden and rj comparisons besides being left handed players. their games are completely different and not really comparable.

I've never really seen that comparison either. Harden is shifty in ways RJ is not. Butler is still the guy I wish he emulates

[nedleeds]

Taj Gibson 30 minutes in a pre-season game. The clownshow rolls on from our delusional cokehead coach.

[robillionaire]

RJ doesn’t need to take midrange pull-ups to be an effective player. Harden doesn’t take mid range shots at all and he is one of the greatest scorers of all time.

What RJ needs to do is take more pull up 3s, finish at the rim and draw fouls.

The lack of pull up 3s may be due to lack of ability or it may be due to design. Randle and Kemba are the only starters taking pull up 3s. Even Fournier who averaged three pull up 3s a game last year is shooting mostly off C&S.

Finishing is still the biggest concern, if RJ can’t get some wiggle at the rim or start drawing fouls it will really limit RJ’s ceiling as a player

That's why Harden hasn't won anything and someone like Kawhi has, the mid-range game is really what separates guys in the playoffs. Even Giannis was hitting some mid post jumpers in the finals, you gotta be able to do something in between the rim and 3 point line as a wing.

you're right but kawhi can score at the rim too. when the defense knows you're below average at the rim it's probably harder to open up your mid range

[Clyde_Style]

Taj Gibson 30 minutes in a pre-season game. The clownshow rolls on from our delusional cokehead coach.

Noel and Mitch were not available and Sims was not all that so who are you playing at C instead?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

RJ doesn’t need to take midrange pull-ups to be an effective player. Harden doesn’t take mid range shots at all and he is one of the greatest scorers of all time.

What RJ needs to do is take more pull up 3s, finish at the rim and draw fouls.

The lack of pull up 3s may be due to lack of ability or it may be due to design. Randle and Kemba are the only starters taking pull up 3s. Even Fournier who averaged three pull up 3s a game last year is shooting mostly off C&S.

Finishing is still the biggest concern, if RJ can’t get some wiggle at the rim or start drawing fouls it will really limit RJ’s ceiling as a player

That's why Harden hasn't won anything and someone like Kawhi has, the mid-range game is really what separates guys in the playoffs. Even Giannis was hitting some mid post jumpers in the finals, you gotta be able to do something in between the rim and 3 point line as a wing.

Shooting 3’s and getting to the rim to break down defenses is still the most important aspect of basketball. Yes the midrange is necessary, but even players like Lebron and Luka mostly rely on getting to the rim and have limited midrange games.

It’s nice to have a midrange assassin like Booker and Middleton on your team, and hopefully Randle can be that guy for us. But for RJ as a 2nd option to have a Harden like game with good defense would not be the worse thing in the world for us.

The best version of LeBron was with the Heat when he was an assassin from the mid-range, there was no way to actually guard him then. Jason Kidd want's Luka to take more mid-range shots and not be limited to just threes and drives, he wants KP to shoot more middies too. The 3 and getting to the rim are important in the regular season, in the playoffs you have to be able to do more than that though.

The wings who can combine high level three point shooting with a great mid-range game are pretty much unstoppable (KD, Kawhi, Tatum). In the long term he's going to need the mid range shot, the finishing will clean itself up as he gets older and stronger, guys like Booker & Beal weren't good finishers early on either. The mid-range shot is what separates good wings from great ones in the playoffs.

[3toheadmelo]

Just some perspective then is what I think helps with all of that. Randle is entering his 8th season in the NBA and he only hit his stride in his 7th year. This is only RJ's third season and he's only 21.

yes but Randle averaged 20 PPG two years prior to last season. and i still have flashbacks of him destroying KP when he was on the Lakers

like I said I’m going to be patient with RJ. but I’ll still talk about what he needs to get better at.

sure, I'm never saying don't talk about areas of improvement. I've merely been making a point no one else is making about how RJ's perceived lack of athleticism or creativity may actually be overcome by his superior mindset, work ethic and how methodically he drills his skills and then will chain them together.

The point about patience is that some have already decided he won't be able to do certain things ever or they're basing their appraisal of his off-season evolution on 3 pre-season games when there is already a clear pattern of his skills morphing as the season progresses and so far not in the first part of each season. That's the impatience I'm addressing, not the critiquing of what he needs to work on which is just natural to discuss

well most elite wings flashed these iso abilities early on in their careers.that’s why we say we don’t think he’ll be a star. can we be wrong? of course. so we’ll see. im rooting for him

[BugginOut]

yes but Randle averaged 20 PPG two years prior to last season. and i still have flashbacks of him destroying KP when he was on the Lakers

like I said I’m going to be patient with RJ. but I’ll still talk about what he needs to get better at.

In Randle’s 3rd season he averaged 13 PPG on 54% TS%. And he was a year older than RJ is now.

RJ is still way ahead of schedule when it comes to his development. We just assume he should be better than he is because he plays a complete game at 21 years old

that was basically Randle’s second season since he out his whole rookie season.

and even then Randle was flashing his mid range game… something we still haven’t seen from rj.

Even if you take Randle’s fourth season he only averaged 16 PPG and RJ hasn’t even played his third season yet.

I’m just wondering why the mid range is a necessity when this board loves players like Shai who take the same amount of mid range attempts as RJ

[NoDopeOnSundays]

RJ doesn’t need to take midrange pull-ups to be an effective player. Harden doesn’t take mid range shots at all and he is one of the greatest scorers of all time.

What RJ needs to do is take more pull up 3s, finish at the rim and draw fouls.

The lack of pull up 3s may be due to lack of ability or it may be due to design. Randle and Kemba are the only starters taking pull up 3s. Even Fournier who averaged three pull up 3s a game last year is shooting mostly off C&S.

Finishing is still the biggest concern, if RJ can’t get some wiggle at the rim or start drawing fouls it will really limit RJ’s ceiling as a player

That's why Harden hasn't won anything and someone like Kawhi has, the mid-range game is really what separates guys in the playoffs. Even Giannis was hitting some mid post jumpers in the finals, you gotta be able to do something in between the rim and 3 point line as a wing.

you're right but kawhi can score at the rim too. when the defense knows you're below average at the rim it's probably harder to open up your mid range

RJ shot 61% at the rim last year, I understand he has ugly misses and games where he can't make anything, but over the course of a season he's not a below average finisher at the rim. The point with Kawhi is that he's a 3 level scorer, and I'd rather see RJ work on the most difficult part of the three levels, which is the mid-range game. The finishing will get better over time, but too big deal is made out of it, for example Randle shot 65% at the rim last year.

[j4remi]

we'd pretty much have to pay him if the options were pay him the max or lose him for nothing, I agree I would also pay him, if could work out and he could keep improving and break out later on like Middleton/Randle etc. even though it could get ugly if he doesn't get any better than this and is making over 30M a season

it's more a dilemma of if we should consider using him in a trade for a proven star this year or next year before it gets to that point

The trade for a proven star angle has a lot of its own potential pitfalls to worry about. That's why I'm basically fine with paying him as long as the Knicks prove that they're going to be a consistent playoff squad with upside (the cap wouldn't take away from having picks and a lot of other young talent).

RJ put up 18, 6, and 3 on solid shooting numbers at 20 years old. Even an incremental improvement pairing with him becoming our lead perimeter defenders would make paying him a no-brainer in my book (again, that's assuming we're a playoff team again).

Keep the playoff team in tact, bank on growth from young players and use the rest of our cache of picks to bolster everything. This roster wouldn't be in bad shape even if RJ stagnated and we've already seen that a ton of cap space isn't a silver bullet to contention. I'd rather do that than let a young key player on a consistent playoff team walk for nothing.

[BugginOut]

That's why Harden hasn't won anything and someone like Kawhi has, the mid-range game is really what separates guys in the playoffs. Even Giannis was hitting some mid post jumpers in the finals, you gotta be able to do something in between the rim and 3 point line as a wing.

Shooting 3’s and getting to the rim to break down defenses is still the most important aspect of basketball. Yes the midrange is necessary, but even players like Lebron and Luka mostly rely on getting to the rim and have limited midrange games.

It’s nice to have a midrange assassin like Booker and Middleton on your team, and hopefully Randle can be that guy for us. But for RJ as a 2nd option to have a Harden like game with good defense would not be the worse thing in the world for us.

The best version of LeBron was with the Heat when he was an assassin from the mid-range, there was no way to actually guard him then. Jason Kidd want's Luka to take more mid-range shots and not be limited to just threes and drives, he wants KP to shoot more middies too. The 3 and getting to the rim are important in the regular season, in the playoffs you have to be able to do more than that though.

The wings who can combine high level three point shooting with a great mid-range game are pretty much unstoppable (KD, Kawhi, Tatum). In the long term he's going to need the mid range shot, the finishing will clean itself up as he gets older and stronger, guys like Booker & Beal weren't good finishers early on either. The mid-range shot is what separates good wings from great ones in the playoffs.

Ok and Luka is two years older than RJ, and Lebron was 26 when he joined the heat. So why is it determined that RJ can’t develop a mid range shot when he has steadily improved his shot since he entered the league.

He isn’t even bad from the midrange right now. He is just average and can’t create.

[j4remi]

Not a max player. Not a legit 1st or 2nd option on a contender. Write it down if you like. I ain’t gonna be wrong lol

He'd be a lot harder to replace than Mitch

[3toheadmelo]

In Randle’s 3rd season he averaged 13 PPG on 54% TS%. And he was a year older than RJ is now.

RJ is still way ahead of schedule when it comes to his development. We just assume he should be better than he is because he plays a complete game at 21 years old

that was basically Randle’s second season since he out his whole rookie season.

and even then Randle was flashing his mid range game… something we still haven’t seen from rj.

Even if you take Randle’s fourth season he only averaged 16 PPG and RJ hasn’t even played his third season yet.

I’m just wondering why the mid range is a necessity when this board loves players like Shai who take the same amount of mid range attempts as RJ

SGA has made way more mid range shots than rj and and can actually create his own shot. mid range is a necessity in the playoffs and helps you be unstoppable

[mpharris36]

Not a max player. Not a legit 1st or 2nd option on a contender. Write it down if you like. I ain’t gonna be wrong lol

He'd be a lot harder to replace than Mitch

thats right! hit him where it hurts!

[j4remi]

Read on Twitter

My recap is up with KFTV fan...suffice to say, I saw a lot more to be optimistic about with RJ

It's preseason, so I'm a little less concerned with the concrete stuff because I think players are working on some things...that's also why I don't score the performances until the regular season.

[robillionaire]

That's why Harden hasn't won anything and someone like Kawhi has, the mid-range game is really what separates guys in the playoffs. Even Giannis was hitting some mid post jumpers in the finals, you gotta be able to do something in between the rim and 3 point line as a wing.

you're right but kawhi can score at the rim too. when the defense knows you're below average at the rim it's probably harder to open up your mid range

RJ shot 61% at the rim last year, I understand he has ugly misses and games where he can't make anything, but over the course of a season he's not a below average finisher at the rim. The point with Kawhi is that he's a 3 level scorer, and I'd rather see RJ work on the most difficult part of the three levels, which is the mid-range game. The finishing will get better over time, but too big deal is made out of it, for example Randle shot 65% at the rim last year.

where are you getting that stat, from what I see here he was 49.7% near the rim and that's below the league average of 58.5%

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rj-barrett-shot-chart-2021

if you look at his other percentages in the paint they are all also far below league average, probably because he has no floater or anything