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Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie

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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#961 » by K-DOT » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:41 pm

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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#962 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:55 pm

Buttah304 wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
Buttah304 wrote:
Sounds like your not a fan of his game. Just out of pure curiosity, seeing as how both RJ and Fox are lefty guards I wanted to pull up some side by side #s from last season.

RJ: 70 Games

Less than 5 feet = 52.8%
Less than 8 feet = 49.7%
Restricted Area = 55.4% (227/410)
Mid Range = 35.9% (46/128)

Fox: 58 Games

Less than 5 feet = 64.9%
Less than 8 feet = 61.1%
Restricted Area = 68.9% (224/325)
Mid Range = 39% (67/172)

We always talk about/highlight the fact that RJ is simply a poor finisher when he’s got a full steam ahead and what would appear to be an easy 2 points amounts to nothing practically half the time. In general I do believe this is a systemic problem with the Knicks as Obi is our only standout athlete.

Chanel - I’m not sure what the league average is with respect to these numbers (specifically from guards) but I’m curious to see what your thoughts are on this breakdown.

We all know that Fox is a tantalizing prospect but he’s never been in a winning situation before. Now I fully remember when Booker was being called a certified chucker who didn’t add to the win column when he was shooting 42% FG his first 3 years in the league. CP3 changed that narrative. I also remember how much Bulls fans crapped all over LaVine his 1st year when he shot 38% FG and 33% from 3PT in 2017. Even after they acquired Vuc they became a worse team on both sides of the ball. It wasn’t until they added Ball and DeRozan that the narrative changed as well.

Is there any way you can envision Fox being apart of a winning ball club or do you just feel that he is who he is at this point. Last year age 22-23 he put up 25-7-4 on 48% FG and went to the FT line 7.2 times per game (in fact Fox was 4th in the NBA in drives per game at 18.4 and DeRozan was 6th at 18.2 and we all see how that type of offense is helping the Bulls out). To put it plainly, is Fox someone you would pursue if you were in the Knicks front office.

No in all seriousness I do think he can potentially be part of a winning club, but I also think he makes it very difficult for a team to win.

You make some excellent points, especially about his drives to the basket. He does primarily hunt shots that are efficient, and he seems to be a good finisher at the rim for a guard. Here's my case.

I don't think he's a "great" player. He's not good enough to be a high-usage player on a winning team in my opinion.

The Kings have had decent role players the last couple of years. Barnes is an excellent role player - versatile defender, 40% 3-point shooter. They have had shooters in Hield and Bogie. I'm not saying their roster is the 1986 Celtics, but their biggest problem is that Fox isn't impactful as a first or second option in my opinion, be it as a shot creator or playmaker. He does not impact the game positively in that role.

So, say he's your 3rd option, does his .319 career 3-point shooting help your team, or hurt your team? Wouldn't a less aggressive, but better shooting point guard make more sense in that configuration? Take FVV for instance.

I've always been a huge fan of Lavine. I always believed his losing was more the product of circumstances than his own shortcomings. And I had no doubt that Booker could contribute to winning and thrive in a lesser role, I just didn't think he could carry a team like a superstar.

I view Fox's ceiling as a Randle type of talent. Talented, physical, aggressive, but largely inefficient, and a basketball IQ that is inconsistent at best. I'm just not a huge fan. His biggest advantage is his speed, and his athleticism shines in transition, but it doesn't translate in the halfcourt as well it does for Lavine, Morant or young Dame imo.

On a winning team, Fox is probably a 14-3-4 guy, assuming his jumpshot is not too big of a problem in a lesser role.

Would Fox make us better? Probably. But not by much.

PS: Walton was horrible as a HC. Hopefully the Kings can hire a good coach now, and we can see Fox under a proper game manager.


I think the efficiency is what would scare me the most about a Randle and Fox pairing. It’s not that difficult to envision them both going 7-18 from the field on more nights than we would like to see. You also make a fair point that’s Fox hasn’t exactly played with the All NBA Scrub team. Guys like Harrison Barnes-Hield-Bogdonovic-Holmes are all super high end role players. At the same time he’s also never played next to someone that an opposing team has to actively game-plan for.

What I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt on is that regardless of who he played with, The Kings have never actually had an identity. His last coach was the laughable Luke Walton who should be banished from the league with how utterly inept and clueless he is.

At the end of the day, you can have top end talent, or you can be a team with depth lacking a key component or two but unless you have a legitimate coaching staff you are most likely going nowhere. There is something to be said about creating an identity for a team, or a structure if you will where everyone buys in and not only knows their role but excels at it.

Indiana is a prime example of a team that should be good on paper. You have Brogdon (whom this board absolutely loves), Sabonis (all star material), Turner (leagues best shot blocker who can hit the 3) and LaVert who warts and all can get buckets. Even Duarte has shown some flashes and Holiday is a nice bench player. But they are 8-11 and Carlisle is grasping for straws.

Point is, I just wonder if a guy like Thibs could bring the most out of a 23 year old guard who not only has shown he can score 25 a night, but he’s in that mold of a Thibs North South attacking/drive and kick PG who was recently Top 5 in drives per game. Not only would you hope (hate using that word) that he brings out the best in the skillset that Fox knows he possesses but also the ones that he might not know he has.

What I struggle with the most is this teams vision. What exactly are we doing? We signed Randle a year early after the ATL debacle. We keep going after carbon copies of players and doubling up on 6th-8th men thinking if your 10 deep that you’ll find miraculous success similar to the Tampa Bay Rays never ending bullpen depth. We put Payton in the way of IQs development and now we have done the same with Kemba. Obi can only crack 20min if 50% of our bigs are MIA. Grimes and Deuce are never going to play and all of our Future 1sts will find the same fate.

I only bring up Fox because who exactly are we targeting? The last few days we’ve been going back and forth about Fournier being movable (LOL) so who is this blockbuster acquisition? Lillard-Fox-KAT? Pipe dreams of SGA and DeJounte Murray?

As usual I’m completely lost as to where this never ending carousel of front office ponies are actually going.

I feel you.

As always, this franchise values quantity over quality.

The most optimistic believe the Knicks are keeping assets and just managing the cap in order to prepare for a big trade that will catapult the Knicks into contention - or move them closer to it. It's a reasonable take.

The problem is, I personally don't see any franchise player hitting the market for the foreseeable future. Hence my position that we should tank. Dame is the closest thing to a superstar and he will be 32 by the start of next season - he's never sniffed the Finals anyway. Where does Dame X Randle lead you exactly? But at least I'd respect that they went all in.

My other problem with this trade theory is that the Knicks' assets can depreciate in value to the point where they're not assets anymore. I'm referring specifically to Mitch and RJ. I'm more optimistic about IQ and Obi, but it could happen to them too. RJ might not be an asset a year from now when he's eligible for an extension.

One player the Knicks should keep two eyes on is Zion. He might be the one. I think he clearly wants out, their POBO is completely incompetent, and we have RJ. If Leon finds a way to orchestrate a move for Zion, I'll be impressed. He's a mess right now, but he's one of the few players with championship upside.
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#963 » by RHODEY » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:59 am

Buttah304 wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:De'Aaron Fox is gonna be 32 with no playoff appearance in his career and folks will still be talking about his potential.


Sounds like your not a fan of his game. Just out of pure curiosity, seeing as how both RJ and Fox are lefty guards I wanted to pull up some side by side #s from last season.

RJ: 70 Games

Less than 5 feet = 52.8%
Less than 8 feet = 49.7%
Restricted Area = 55.4% (227/410)
Mid Range = 35.9% (46/128)

Fox: 58 Games

Less than 5 feet = 64.9%
Less than 8 feet = 61.1%
Restricted Area = 68.9% (224/325)
Mid Range = 39% (67/172)

We always talk about/highlight the fact that RJ is simply a poor finisher when he’s got a full steam ahead and what would appear to be an easy 2 points amounts to nothing practically half the time. In general I do believe this is a systemic problem with the Knicks as Obi is our only standout athlete.

Chanel - I’m not sure what the league average is with respect to these numbers (specifically from guards) but I’m curious to see what your thoughts are on this breakdown.

We all know that Fox is a tantalizing prospect but he’s never been in a winning situation before. Now I fully remember when Booker was being called a certified chucker who didn’t add to the win column when he was shooting 42% FG his first 3 years in the league. CP3 changed that narrative. I also remember how much Bulls fans crapped all over LaVine his 1st year when he shot 38% FG and 33% from 3PT in 2017. Even after they acquired Vuc they became a worse team on both sides of the ball. It wasn’t until they added Ball and DeRozan that the narrative changed as well.

Is there any way you can envision Fox being apart of a winning ball club or do you just feel that he is who he is at this point. Last year age 22-23 he put up 25-7-4 on 48% FG and went to the FT line 7.2 times per game (in fact Fox was 4th in the NBA in drives per game at 18.4 and DeRozan was 6th at 18.2 and we all see how that type of offense is helping the Bulls out). To put it plainly, is Fox someone you would pursue if you were in the Knicks front office.


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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#964 » by KnicksGod » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:32 am

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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#965 » by Gravy » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:41 am

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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#966 » by mpharris36 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:01 am

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wow what a shot...the kids (man) got a knack for late game shots.
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#967 » by mpharris36 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:03 am

wow Isiah Thomas saying some reckless things on NBATV...I know he's butt hurt about MJ but damn dude.
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#968 » by mpharris36 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:13 am

OMG ant edwards killed gabe vincent!!!
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#969 » by WajaBawl » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:16 am

Lot of people on this board called Anthony Edwards overrated. Always knew he was that guy. He's gonna be the best 2-guard in a couple of years.
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#970 » by YouthMovement » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:18 am

bulls about to lose to houston
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#971 » by mpharris36 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:24 am

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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#972 » by DaGawd » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:30 am

Bulls lose to the rockets…
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#973 » by Buttah304 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:30 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:
Buttah304 wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:No in all seriousness I do think he can potentially be part of a winning club, but I also think he makes it very difficult for a team to win.

You make some excellent points, especially about his drives to the basket. He does primarily hunt shots that are efficient, and he seems to be a good finisher at the rim for a guard. Here's my case.

I don't think he's a "great" player. He's not good enough to be a high-usage player on a winning team in my opinion.

The Kings have had decent role players the last couple of years. Barnes is an excellent role player - versatile defender, 40% 3-point shooter. They have had shooters in Hield and Bogie. I'm not saying their roster is the 1986 Celtics, but their biggest problem is that Fox isn't impactful as a first or second option in my opinion, be it as a shot creator or playmaker. He does not impact the game positively in that role.

So, say he's your 3rd option, does his .319 career 3-point shooting help your team, or hurt your team? Wouldn't a less aggressive, but better shooting point guard make more sense in that configuration? Take FVV for instance.

I've always been a huge fan of Lavine. I always believed his losing was more the product of circumstances than his own shortcomings. And I had no doubt that Booker could contribute to winning and thrive in a lesser role, I just didn't think he could carry a team like a superstar.

I view Fox's ceiling as a Randle type of talent. Talented, physical, aggressive, but largely inefficient, and a basketball IQ that is inconsistent at best. I'm just not a huge fan. His biggest advantage is his speed, and his athleticism shines in transition, but it doesn't translate in the halfcourt as well it does for Lavine, Morant or young Dame imo.

On a winning team, Fox is probably a 14-3-4 guy, assuming his jumpshot is not too big of a problem in a lesser role.

Would Fox make us better? Probably. But not by much.

PS: Walton was horrible as a HC. Hopefully the Kings can hire a good coach now, and we can see Fox under a proper game manager.


I think the efficiency is what would scare me the most about a Randle and Fox pairing. It’s not that difficult to envision them both going 7-18 from the field on more nights than we would like to see. You also make a fair point that’s Fox hasn’t exactly played with the All NBA Scrub team. Guys like Harrison Barnes-Hield-Bogdonovic-Holmes are all super high end role players. At the same time he’s also never played next to someone that an opposing team has to actively game-plan for.

What I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt on is that regardless of who he played with, The Kings have never actually had an identity. His last coach was the laughable Luke Walton who should be banished from the league with how utterly inept and clueless he is.

At the end of the day, you can have top end talent, or you can be a team with depth lacking a key component or two but unless you have a legitimate coaching staff you are most likely going nowhere. There is something to be said about creating an identity for a team, or a structure if you will where everyone buys in and not only knows their role but excels at it.

Indiana is a prime example of a team that should be good on paper. You have Brogdon (whom this board absolutely loves), Sabonis (all star material), Turner (leagues best shot blocker who can hit the 3) and LaVert who warts and all can get buckets. Even Duarte has shown some flashes and Holiday is a nice bench player. But they are 8-11 and Carlisle is grasping for straws.

Point is, I just wonder if a guy like Thibs could bring the most out of a 23 year old guard who not only has shown he can score 25 a night, but he’s in that mold of a Thibs North South attacking/drive and kick PG who was recently Top 5 in drives per game. Not only would you hope (hate using that word) that he brings out the best in the skillset that Fox knows he possesses but also the ones that he might not know he has.

What I struggle with the most is this teams vision. What exactly are we doing? We signed Randle a year early after the ATL debacle. We keep going after carbon copies of players and doubling up on 6th-8th men thinking if your 10 deep that you’ll find miraculous success similar to the Tampa Bay Rays never ending bullpen depth. We put Payton in the way of IQs development and now we have done the same with Kemba. Obi can only crack 20min if 50% of our bigs are MIA. Grimes and Deuce are never going to play and all of our Future 1sts will find the same fate.

I only bring up Fox because who exactly are we targeting? The last few days we’ve been going back and forth about Fournier being movable (LOL) so who is this blockbuster acquisition? Lillard-Fox-KAT? Pipe dreams of SGA and DeJounte Murray?

As usual I’m completely lost as to where this never ending carousel of front office ponies are actually going.

I feel you.

As always, this franchise values quantity over quality.

The most optimistic believe the Knicks are keeping assets and just managing the cap in order to prepare for a big trade that will catapult the Knicks into contention - or move them closer to it. It's a reasonable take.

The problem is, I personally don't see any franchise player hitting the market for the foreseeable future. Hence my position that we should tank. Dame is the closest thing to a superstar and he will be 32 by the start of next season - he's never sniffed the Finals anyway. Where does Dame X Randle lead you exactly? But at least I'd respect that they went all in.

My other problem with this trade theory is that the Knicks' assets can depreciate in value to the point where they're not assets anymore. I'm referring specifically to Mitch and RJ. I'm more optimistic about IQ and Obi, but it could happen to them too. RJ might not be an asset a year from now when he's eligible for an extension.

One player the Knicks should keep two eyes on is Zion. He might be the one. I think he clearly wants out, their POBO is completely incompetent, and we have RJ. If Leon finds a way to orchestrate a move for Zion, I'll be impressed. He's a mess right now, but he's one of the few players with championship upside.


Fully agree with you here. Whether acquiring Dame is right or wrong isn’t necessarily the point. They would at least be committing to a direction even if it’s an all in mentality on a Knicks team that well…would need more than Dame to contend. Point is the front office would actually provide clarity on what they are aiming to do.

When I look back at the last few years, all I see is that they haven’t got the slightest clue how to build a proper roster with what should be position-less versatile players. All these middle of the pack bottom tier and mid tier role player signings. The 1 year, 2 year and 3 year deals (with the 3rd being a team option) is like running in circles. The carbon copy signings where you have 2 players making respectable contributions but not legitimately impactful ones is like being in no man’s land.

Back to Dame for a minute. I know the old adage is “don’t trade for players over 30.” They show signs of slowing down athletically, their bodies start to break down and all of a sudden they can’t do the things they used to.

But here me out for a minute and if this take isn’t reasonable or sounds like I’m reaching feel free to shoot it down. Should we be treating Dame like every other 31 year old?

When Dame entered the league as a rookie he was already 22 and by the time the NBA Finals were finished he was 23 years old. Most top end lottery picks coming in are only 19 so Dame, at least in my eyes doesn’t have the typical wear and tear that a 31 year old would have. You look at guys like Rose, Kemba, Kyrie and countless others and what do they have in common? They all have had major injuries and missed significant time. Yet here Dame is having played in 699/729 games (96%) for his career while practically being the poster child of an NBA ironman. By no means am I advocating trading for Lillard, I’m just trying to look at it from a deeper, more fair perspective. It’s quite possible that he has more ALL NBA years left than one would think for the typical over 30 year old star. As we both agree, Randle and Dame) wouldn’t be quite enough, as other moves would need to be made in subsequent. That’s on the front office not me sitting from my couch.
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#974 » by DaGawd » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:31 am

WajaBawl wrote:Lot of people on this board called Anthony Edwards overrated. Always knew he was that guy. He's gonna be the best 2-guard in a couple of years.

They were butt hurt about his RJ comment
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#975 » by HEZI » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:32 am

Edwards was the one guy I would have looked to trade up for
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#976 » by Worst_to_First » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:33 am

Bulls, Wizards and soon the Heat about to fall to upset defeats. Good for us who is trying to gain ground in the standings lol.
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#977 » by Angryfatboy » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:38 am

That’s 5 in a row for the wolves (if they continue to play the defense they play) they should be a playin team at the very least
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#978 » by BugginOut » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:46 am

Worst_to_First wrote:Bulls, Wizards and soon the Heat about to fall to upset defeats. Good for us who is trying to gain ground in the standings lol.

Also goes to show that sometimes you drop games to bad teams. That’s just how the NBA is nowadays.

People were about to jump off a cliff because we almost lost to the Rockets but at least we were able to pull out the win.
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#979 » by Buttah304 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:53 am

Wizards 1-4 since Beal returned.

He is the most non impactful huge stats player I have seen in a long time. He’s just a certified loser at this point. Always has been and always will be.
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Re: Around the NBA part 2 - Save Melo from Brodie 

Post#980 » by RHODEY » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:54 am

Worst_to_First wrote:Bulls, Wizards and soon the Heat about to fall to upset defeats. Good for us who is trying to gain ground in the standings lol.


If we hadnt lost to ORL twice, we'd be 2nd seed right now.

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