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Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped

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E-Balla
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#121 » by E-Balla » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:37 pm

spree8 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
spree8 wrote:

This has been going on since we traded Ewing… one n done, new lotto odds, etc are no excuse for 20+ years of never truly trying this route.

I know times have changed n all, so current day it may be a bit different, but it’s still a reliable method. We just somehow always seem to fuq it up and end up right outside where we should’ve been by not fully committing to a rebuild.


02’ we pass on Amare and trade the pick for McDyess.

We were garbage in 03’… with a historic class, I remember being heated for still not embracing the rebuild n going full throttle to the top of the lotto… instead we ended up just outside of it and drafted Mike Sweetney.

05’ we traded our soul for Marbury the previous year and we ended up still being hot garbage because we had nothing outside of him… genius plan. We land the 8th pick… just 4 spots away from Cp3.

Same in 08’ with Steph… hiring a coach like D’Antoni at that point was premature. The wins he got us cost us a top player of all time.

15’ we lost a coin flip to Minny who got Towns… the 2 out of 3 meaningless wins we just had to get at the very end of the season instead of pulling the plug and securing that #1 spot… oh joy.

20’ fired a coach who was a perfect tank commander and promoted his assistant who ended up having twice the win record… lost a chance at LaMelo or Edwards there (looking at the records of the teams who landed them).

21’ We hire Thibs during a year we should’ve kept rebuilding.. surely that cost us a top pick in this draft. I’d say that’s more important than securing a coach like Thibs who is far from perfect.


Can’t forget all the years we traded our picks for trash only for them to land at the top of the lotto and get other teams perennial All-Stars and DPOY’s.

We’ve been so close to landing what we needed so many times, yet bad luck or whatever you wanna call it, has reared its ugly head and ruined it.


Regarding listing old teams that have won titles by getting their first superstar via the draft….

Warriors- drafted Steph 7th, then Klay n Dray

Cavs- drafted Kyrie #1, signed Lebron who they drafted initially @ #1, and traded their #1 pick for the 3rd star

Spurs- drafted Duncan #1, Kawhi 15th, DRob #1

Heat- drafted Wade #5, without him, Shaq, Lebron, and Bosh would’ve never came.


Mavs, Lakers, and Celtics all drafted Dirk (9th-foreign players weren’t looked at the same), Kobe (13th- high school), and Pierce (10th-projected higher) outside of the top of the lotto, but the point is that these franchises got their superstars in the draft (still near the top, and could’ve went higher if not for the times/era) and the rest followed.

The teams listed above are like 95% of the championship teams in the last 20 years.

It’s rare you get a superstar to come to an empty team. Lebron to LA doesn’t happen every day. The draft is far more likely to get you what you need.

You said Steph at 7 then Klay and Dray like Klay and Dray weren't later picks. Neither guy was top 10 iirc.

Cleveland also got LeBron in the FA and traded for Kevin Love their 3rd star.

With star movement maximized in the league the best position to be in is to have a lot of young assets you can trade, an overachieving coach, and a bunch of decent role players. Basically do what the Clippers and Nets did.



I said Steph at 7 because my main point is that the best way to get your superstar is the top of the draft. Getting Klay or your #2 at 11 is fine, but it’s rare to get your #1 outside the top 10.

Cleveland drafted Lebron #1 btw. Without that, he wouldn’t have went back there later on. They also drafted Kyrie #1, and used another #1 pick to trade for KLove. Without those 3 #1 picks, they wouldn’t have assembled that trio. It’s a testament to how important it is to be at the top.

Trading for our superstar hasn't worked out too well for us in the past either. We were stripped naked with the Melo trade, and we looked like fools with KD n Kyrie. We’re constantly used as leverage in free agency. That’s why I’m saying for NY especially, we need to forgo that route and try for ours at the top of the draft.

Well I think not grabbing KD and Kyrie was a great idea but the reason we ended up looking like fools is no one wants to be on the franchise with the most losses this millennium. Let's work on not being the worst NBA franchise of the 21st century, then maybe we'll start having opportunities to get good players. KAT grew up in Jersey and wants nothing to do with us, that's an issue with the franchise's reputation. Fix the franchise, fix the reputation.

Also Melo wasn't a superstar. Melo has made like 3 All NBA teams in his career? One before NY IIRC. He's an all star. The mistake we make is usually we don't grab tier 1 stars. We pay out the ass for Khris Middleton types and old injury prone guys. It's a new era though and tier 1 stars are demanding trades at least every year. No reason we can't be a competitive team for the next 3-4 years and hope down the line Zion asks out of NO or something like that.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#122 » by Richard4444 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:38 pm

Rasho Brezec wrote:Tank, play rooks, collect draft picks has been the solution we've been avoiding since RealGM existed.


First, we sucessfully tanked 2 times. To get KP and RJ. After Melo and KP injuries, respectively, we had the worst active roster in NBA in that two moments.

Second, we were expected to tank in 2017 (when we get Knox) and last season. Almost no NBA teams get worse in purpose (except when they eat bad contracts). They simply don't make enough movements to try to win just getting young or cheap contracts to hit the salary cap floor.

In 2017, after Melo trade, we built a roster with third-year KP, Tim, and Kanter as our main players. For some inexplicable phenomena, we were fighting for the 8th seed when KP goes down. Then it was too late to properly tank.

In 2020, we kept the terrible starting unit that had the 6th worst campaign in the previous year. After failing to get a nice FA (like Hayward, Grant, etc), we kind of embraced the tanking and refused to use the remaining cap space. We kind of downgraded the roster with the cheap Noel, Burks, and Rivers in the place of the expensive Bobby, Wayne, and Taj. But Thibs and Randle put us on the victorious path.

Besides we did not trade a FRP for a player since the unfamous Bargnani"s trade.

To conclude, we have been tanked for many years. Sometimes we overachieved. And sometimes we get bad luck in the lottery and in the choices made in the draft. Tanking is a very painful path.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#123 » by WajaBawl » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:12 pm

Richard4444 wrote:
Rasho Brezec wrote:Tank, play rooks, collect draft picks has been the solution we've been avoiding since RealGM existed.


First, we sucessfully tanked 2 times. To get KP and RJ. After Melo and KP injuries, respectively, we had the worst active roster in NBA in that two moments.

Second, we were expected to tank in 2017 (when we get Knox) and last season. Almost no NBA teams get worse in purpose (except when they eat bad contracts). They simply don't make enough movements to try to win just getting young or cheap contracts to hit the salary cap floor.

In 2017, after Melo trade, we built a roster with third-year KP, Tim, and Kanter as our main players. For some inexplicable phenomena, we were fighting for the 8th seed when KP goes down. Then it was too late to properly tank.

In 2020, we kept the terrible starting unit that had the 6th worst campaign in the previous year. After failing to get a nice FA (like Hayward, Grant, etc), we kind of embraced the tanking and refused to use the remaining cap space. We kind of downgraded the roster with the cheap Noel, Burks, and Rivers in the place of the expensive Bobby, Wayne, and Taj. But Thibs and Randle put us on the victorious path.

Besides we did not trade a FRP for a player since the unfamous Bargnani"s trade.

To conclude, we have been tanked for many years. Sometimes we overachieved. And sometimes we get bad luck in the lottery and in the choices made in the draft. Tanking is a very painful path.


We've never tanked. Tanking means playing your young guys and focus on player development. In all those years, we went out of our way to sign journey men vets and gave THEM extensive playing time. The Jarret Jacks, Courtney Lees, Ramon Sessions, Trey Burkes, Enes Cancers. We did that because Dolan still wanted a competitive product on the floor on a nightly basis. We never fully embraced a real tank by letting young guys play and grow except that one year we got RJ.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#124 » by robillionaire » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:17 pm

WajaBawl wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:
Rasho Brezec wrote:Tank, play rooks, collect draft picks has been the solution we've been avoiding since RealGM existed.


First, we sucessfully tanked 2 times. To get KP and RJ. After Melo and KP injuries, respectively, we had the worst active roster in NBA in that two moments.

Second, we were expected to tank in 2017 (when we get Knox) and last season. Almost no NBA teams get worse in purpose (except when they eat bad contracts). They simply don't make enough movements to try to win just getting young or cheap contracts to hit the salary cap floor.

In 2017, after Melo trade, we built a roster with third-year KP, Tim, and Kanter as our main players. For some inexplicable phenomena, we were fighting for the 8th seed when KP goes down. Then it was too late to properly tank.

In 2020, we kept the terrible starting unit that had the 6th worst campaign in the previous year. After failing to get a nice FA (like Hayward, Grant, etc), we kind of embraced the tanking and refused to use the remaining cap space. We kind of downgraded the roster with the cheap Noel, Burks, and Rivers in the place of the expensive Bobby, Wayne, and Taj. But Thibs and Randle put us on the victorious path.

Besides we did not trade a FRP for a player since the unfamous Bargnani"s trade.

To conclude, we have been tanked for many years. Sometimes we overachieved. And sometimes we get bad luck in the lottery and in the choices made in the draft. Tanking is a very painful path.


We've never tanked. Tanking means playing your young guys and focus on player development. In all those years, we went out of our way to sign journey men vets and gave THEM extensive playing time. The Jarret Jacks, Courtney Lees, Ramon Sessions, Trey Burkes, Enes Cancers. We did that because Dolan still wanted a competitive product on the floor on a nightly basis. We never fully embraced a real tank by letting young guys play and grow except that one year we got RJ.


We did tank, multiple times. One guy demanded a trade and the other is a bust. All the young players we drafted suck and can't grow because they are bad. Tanking doesn't work. There are new rules to make sure even if you're the worst team in the NBA the highest odds are that you're picking 5th. And that's absolutely what will happen to us if we try it again.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#125 » by Richard4444 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:48 pm

WajaBawl wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:
Rasho Brezec wrote:Tank, play rooks, collect draft picks has been the solution we've been avoiding since RealGM existed.


First, we sucessfully tanked 2 times. To get KP and RJ. After Melo and KP injuries, respectively, we had the worst active roster in NBA in that two moments.

Second, we were expected to tank in 2017 (when we get Knox) and last season. Almost no NBA teams get worse in purpose (except when they eat bad contracts). They simply don't make enough movements to try to win just getting young or cheap contracts to hit the salary cap floor.

In 2017, after Melo trade, we built a roster with third-year KP, Tim, and Kanter as our main players. For some inexplicable phenomena, we were fighting for the 8th seed when KP goes down. Then it was too late to properly tank.

In 2020, we kept the terrible starting unit that had the 6th worst campaign in the previous year. After failing to get a nice FA (like Hayward, Grant, etc), we kind of embraced the tanking and refused to use the remaining cap space. We kind of downgraded the roster with the cheap Noel, Burks, and Rivers in the place of the expensive Bobby, Wayne, and Taj. But Thibs and Randle put us on the victorious path.

Besides we did not trade a FRP for a player since the unfamous Bargnani"s trade.

To conclude, we have been tanked for many years. Sometimes we overachieved. And sometimes we get bad luck in the lottery and in the choices made in the draft. Tanking is a very painful path.


We've never tanked. Tanking means playing your young guys and focus on player development. In all those years, we went out of our way to sign journey men vets and gave THEM extensive playing time. The Jarret Jacks, Courtney Lees, Ramon Sessions, Trey Burkes, Enes Cancers. We did that because Dolan still wanted a competitive product on the floor on a nightly basis. We never fully embraced a real tank by letting young guys play and grow except that one year we got RJ.


1) Every development team needs some vets. And Jarret Jack was an excellent tank commander. He really sucked.

2) Kanter was a bad contract eaten in the place of a worse contract (Melo). And he was not a good starting center.

3) We had too little young talent in the past years. Burke went to NY at 25 years old. He was still young and was killing at G-League. Frank was an awful point guard (apparently he did not want to play wing and was shooting very badly at the time). Dotson was another common player who did not have enough upside. Besides giving young players too many minutes when they are not ready is counterproductive. We exposed and take all of Knox"s confidence and passion for the sport making him play against NBA starting players for a year.

4) Our mistake was to wait too long before trying to rebuild. Melo and Lee were old and negative contracts by the time we started rebuilding. And Noah and Tim were never a positive. We did not get any extra pick from getting rid of our vets like rebuilding teams normally get.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#126 » by malik959 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:43 pm

Jumping the gun much? People need to relax, it’s just the beginning of the season and only a handful of teams actually look good right now. In the East you have the Bulls, Heat, and Wizards (we all know the Wiz won’t last), and in the West you have GS, Jazz, and Suns. We’re at a 5 way tie with the Celtics, Bucks, 76ers, and Cavs. Outside of the Cavs you know the others belong at the top yet they are struggling early too. The Nets seem to be operating on one player (KD) while Harden is struggling like many other players. Things will get better, we just need to move the ball better and stop being so predictable. Our biggest problem is starting the game with energy and passion. Randle should not be the main ball handler and Rose needs to be put in the starting lineup, possibly along with Burks. They seem to be the only consistent players that play with energy. Our bench should not have to come in to play catch-up, they should come in to maintain a steady game and rest the starters.

This year is supposed to be a step forward from last year and yes Fournier and Walker are better than Bullock and he that shall not be named, but they should not start together because they are both weak defenders and right now we have 2 centers that returned from injuries and are currently out of shape yet they are our best defenders and rebounders. This is not a three point shooting team, we are not Golden State! Our strongest player seems to like the 3pt line better than the key and same goes for RJ. They are both struggling because they rely on the outside shot so much but have lost their confidence in their shot. They need to play inside out, not outside in. This team can work together, but Thibs needs to get hit head out of his azz and make the necessary corrections otherwise we will continue to slope. We are not bad enough for the lottery so this team will be stuck in limbo with a player that we wouldn’t see playing until 2025.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#127 » by spree8 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:37 pm

E-Balla wrote:
spree8 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:You said Steph at 7 then Klay and Dray like Klay and Dray weren't later picks. Neither guy was top 10 iirc.

Cleveland also got LeBron in the FA and traded for Kevin Love their 3rd star.

With star movement maximized in the league the best position to be in is to have a lot of young assets you can trade, an overachieving coach, and a bunch of decent role players. Basically do what the Clippers and Nets did.



I said Steph at 7 because my main point is that the best way to get your superstar is the top of the draft. Getting Klay or your #2 at 11 is fine, but it’s rare to get your #1 outside the top 10.

Cleveland drafted Lebron #1 btw. Without that, he wouldn’t have went back there later on. They also drafted Kyrie #1, and used another #1 pick to trade for KLove. Without those 3 #1 picks, they wouldn’t have assembled that trio. It’s a testament to how important it is to be at the top.

Trading for our superstar hasn't worked out too well for us in the past either. We were stripped naked with the Melo trade, and we looked like fools with KD n Kyrie. We’re constantly used as leverage in free agency. That’s why I’m saying for NY especially, we need to forgo that route and try for ours at the top of the draft.

Well I think not grabbing KD and Kyrie was a great idea but the reason we ended up looking like fools is no one wants to be on the franchise with the most losses this millennium. Let's work on not being the worst NBA franchise of the 21st century, then maybe we'll start having opportunities to get good players. KAT grew up in Jersey and wants nothing to do with us, that's an issue with the franchise's reputation. Fix the franchise, fix the reputation.

Also Melo wasn't a superstar. Melo has made like 3 All NBA teams in his career? One before NY IIRC. He's an all star. The mistake we make is usually we don't grab tier 1 stars. We pay out the ass for Khris Middleton types and old injury prone guys. It's a new era though and tier 1 stars are demanding trades at least every year. No reason we can't be a competitive team for the next 3-4 years and hope down the line Zion asks out of NO or something like that.



Carmelo is on the NBA Top 75 list of greatest players of all time. Even the RealGm Player Comparison Board Top 100 List has him listed every time. I dunno what your definition of superstar is, I guess that’s subjective, but to have a consensus top 75-100 player of all time certainly is enough to prove the point. Same as you thinking not getting KD n Kyrie was a great thing (I agree), but that’s what the majority of Knick fans and management wanted… that’s subjective, but the point is that we miss out on top FA’s a lot, regardless if you n I don’t want them, they’re still top superstar players that didn’t wanna come here.

I know we have to fix the reputation, but I guess we have different opinions on how to accomplish that. I dunno how old you are, but the last 20 years have been garbage and we’ve tried your way (trading for Melo n Marbury n Francis) and every other way (signing Amare, Tyson, etc, n missing out on Lebron, KD, Wade, Kyrie etc) except the one that has worked best throughout history: obtaining your superstar thru the draft. That’s all I’m saying.

Moot point tho, cuz we ain’t rebuilding here.
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