ImageImageImageImageImage

Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped

Moderators: mpharris36, GONYK, HerSports85, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23, Capn'O, j4remi, Deeeez Knicks, NoLayupRule

User avatar
F N 11
RealGM
Posts: 88,864
And1: 61,354
Joined: Jun 27, 2006
Location: Getting over screens with Gusto.
Contact:
 

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#21 » by F N 11 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:57 am

god shammgod wrote:it really started to go wrong when randle took a supposed leap. they drafted his replacement and had it in mind to move on from him. they were entertaining trading him that summer. but he just played too well to get rid of. and now we're here.

We did it because fans would of said he got all nba 2nd team blah blah blah Knicks don’t know how to treat players. It was a culture move now he acting like Elfred Payton.
CEO of the not trading RJ club.
Image
Richard4444
General Manager
Posts: 8,884
And1: 5,913
Joined: Dec 28, 2018
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
   

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#22 » by Richard4444 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:56 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Tanking and getting any of the top 5 picks would have been a better outcome. Instead we got our culos blasted by the Hawks which brought nothing of value. Last year was the perfect season to punt on due to the lack of fans for the majority of the season.

We are a play in team which is a step back from last season.


We would never have tanked with Thibs, D.Rose, Randle, Bullock, Taj, etc.

If we would not overachieved, we would have got the 10th pick and would have drafted Cris Duarte.
BAF Brooklyn - Pre-Season NBA 2K Simulation 2023 Champions.

Brunson/Nembhard/Micic
Butler/IQ/Ben Sheppard
Strus/Watford/Nesmith
Boucher/Morris/Baldwin Jr
Embiid/Landale/Yurtseven
User avatar
prophet_of_rage
RealGM
Posts: 16,807
And1: 6,614
Joined: Jan 06, 2005

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#23 » by prophet_of_rage » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:08 pm

pwayknicks wrote:Not trading randle was the only mistake. Anyone who watches basketball knew his last season was fools gold. We could of got something nice for him, hopefully still can.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So if everybody knew Randle was fools gold then why woukd somebody trade something nice for him?

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk
User avatar
prophet_of_rage
RealGM
Posts: 16,807
And1: 6,614
Joined: Jan 06, 2005

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#24 » by prophet_of_rage » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:13 pm

duetta wrote:Let be even more honest. Nobody asks what we think!
Dolan responds to our outbursts.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk
User avatar
Deeeez Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 46,632
And1: 49,451
Joined: Nov 12, 2004

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#25 » by Deeeez Knicks » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:54 pm

Knicks have desperately needed a true rebuild for 20+ years but it isn't going to happen under Dolan. Last year was a good chance. We had with no fans in the arena and we still went the win now route. Dolan has a mandate to keep the team competitive so we are just not going to go that route.

Still.....regardless of tank or no tank we just need to make better decisions. The Knicks have had opportunities just haven't always made the right decisions in those spots. At the same time things could be much worse. I don't think the Knicks are in THAT bad of shape so if they can just hit on the right 1 or 2 moves it could help turn everything around.
Mavs
C: Timelord | Paul Reed | M Brown
PF: Sabonis | Lauri Markkanen
SF: Lebron | Lauri Markkanen
SG: DWhite | Lonnie Walker | Shake | Ty Jerome
PG: VanFleet | Tre Jones | Rose | Deuce
User avatar
JXL
General Manager
Posts: 8,679
And1: 8,382
Joined: Sep 01, 2013
Location: New York
Contact:
     

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#26 » by JXL » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:17 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:Knicks have desperately needed a true rebuild for 20+ years but it isn't going to happen under Dolan. Last year was a good chance. We had with no fans in the arena and we still went the win now route. Dolan has a mandate to keep the team competitive so we are just not going to go that route.

Still.....regardless of tank or no tank we just need to make better decisions. The Knicks have had opportunities just haven't always made the right decisions in those spots. At the same time things could be much worse. I don't think the Knicks are in THAT bad of shape so if they can just hit on the right 1 or 2 moves it could help turn everything around.


They're not in bad shape. They have picks, young players, avenues to create cap space if desired, and no long-term albatross contracts. The Knicks can make moves, but it has to be the good ones that make them a contender for this season and beyond.

Also, tanking without a linear plan is horrid. Can't expect a 20-something #1 pick to become a superstar in 2-3 years without having a concrete system around them to focus on their skill. Anthony Bennett is a prime example. Also Ben Simmons, who while is an elite defender, never developed a true jump shot and now is looking like a broken vase.

So, regardless of what record the Knicks have now, I can say they're not a title contending team, but they have avenues to get there without relying on 10+ years of tanking like the Magic/Rockets/Pistons/Process Sixers.
BIRD UP!
#OGKENOBI


Follow me on X: @sirJXL
Lord Commander
Head Coach
Posts: 7,010
And1: 1,526
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
     

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#27 » by Lord Commander » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:29 pm

Wtf is this $hit?
User avatar
Handledatruth
Head Coach
Posts: 6,390
And1: 1,719
Joined: Aug 13, 2004

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#28 » by Handledatruth » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:44 pm

I'm curious how the Hawks feel. They capped out, locked up their coach based on half a year of performance, and are on the way to treadmilling.
User avatar
Deeeez Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 46,632
And1: 49,451
Joined: Nov 12, 2004

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#29 » by Deeeez Knicks » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:53 pm

JXL wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Knicks have desperately needed a true rebuild for 20+ years but it isn't going to happen under Dolan. Last year was a good chance. We had with no fans in the arena and we still went the win now route. Dolan has a mandate to keep the team competitive so we are just not going to go that route.

Still.....regardless of tank or no tank we just need to make better decisions. The Knicks have had opportunities just haven't always made the right decisions in those spots. At the same time things could be much worse. I don't think the Knicks are in THAT bad of shape so if they can just hit on the right 1 or 2 moves it could help turn everything around.


They're not in bad shape. They have picks, young players, avenues to create cap space if desired, and no long-term albatross contracts. The Knicks can make moves, but it has to be the good ones that make them a contender for this season and beyond.

Also, tanking without a linear plan is horrid. Can't expect a 20-something #1 pick to become a superstar in 2-3 years without having a concrete system around them to focus on their skill. Anthony Bennett is a prime example. Also Ben Simmons, who while is an elite defender, never developed a true jump shot and now is looking like a broken vase.

So, regardless of what record the Knicks have now, I can say they're not a title contending team, but they have avenues to get there without relying on 10+ years of tanking like the Magic/Rockets/Pistons/Process Sixers.


True, tanking isn't always the answer and you need some luck. Plenty of teams have rebuilt while not tanking while plenty of teams have tanked and gone nowhere, and vice versa. There are multiple paths and ways to get there.

It comes down to executing a good plan. So far I would say this regimen has done some things well, and other things not so well. While far from perfect its not doom and gloom either. Like you said, there are avenues to continue to improve the team so it will be a work in progress. Reality is no matter the plan it can be tough to get to that next level and take some time.
Mavs
C: Timelord | Paul Reed | M Brown
PF: Sabonis | Lauri Markkanen
SF: Lebron | Lauri Markkanen
SG: DWhite | Lonnie Walker | Shake | Ty Jerome
PG: VanFleet | Tre Jones | Rose | Deuce
User avatar
Hes_On_Fire
Head Coach
Posts: 7,104
And1: 9,217
Joined: Dec 08, 2018
       

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#30 » by Hes_On_Fire » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:55 pm

Of all the years to tank, a year with a loaded draft class like the one in 2021 was the year to do it.

Naturally, we didn’t and we ended up with Grimes, who Thibodeau refuses to play.

We are relying on a veteran roster while we have no superstar or future superstar (sorry RJ) to develop. We are in no man’s land as a franchise and have always been - including last year. I don’t understand what we’re doing and how it was ever a good idea to think this roster was the way to go. We’re not even close to anything. We’re barely an 8th seed with no real future. We have some nice young pieces - Obi, Quickley, RJ - and some unknowns like Grimes and McBride who will never see the light of day with Thibs. There’s no strong foundation here as it currently stands.
New York Knicks franchise W-L record as of 9/2/22 since James L Dolan assumed full ownership (2001):

673-1,007
User avatar
Marty McFly
RealGM
Posts: 26,633
And1: 9,343
Joined: Sep 15, 2009
     

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#31 » by Marty McFly » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:56 pm

lmao no it did not. the knicks are not a team that would build through the lottery, last season was the best they could have hope for given their philosophy.

Are they going to get far in the playoffs? probably not, but you bet your ass there are are players watching this team try to be competitive which is never a bad thing.
Guano wrote:Fourni3r forgetting he has Bob cousy handles

Woodsanity wrote:Imagine trusting a team with World B Flat on it without Lebron keeping him in check.
Richard4444
General Manager
Posts: 8,884
And1: 5,913
Joined: Dec 28, 2018
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
   

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#32 » by Richard4444 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:07 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
god shammgod wrote:it really started to go wrong when randle took a supposed leap. they drafted his replacement and had it in mind to move on from him. they were entertaining trading him that summer. but he just played too well to get rid of. and now we're here.


A smarter front office would have seen his season and realized it was a contract year, the Clippers wisely dumped Tobias Harris during a 21/8/3 season he was having for them, because even the prospect of a draft pick was better than having to pay him a max.


They strongly believed they could land Kawhi. Of course, we would dump Randle if you could land a healthy Kawhi plus another better player like PG13 in his place.

The truth is we do not have better stars on our radar for the time being. We will not trade Randle for a collection of bad picks/second-tier young players.

Last time, we have a shot at getting a true star. We made a really bold deal. Trading the best player we drafted for quite a time for cap space basically.

In addition to that, I doubt Randle has great value right now. The market should lowball his price due to the underwhelming performance since the Hawks series.
BAF Brooklyn - Pre-Season NBA 2K Simulation 2023 Champions.

Brunson/Nembhard/Micic
Butler/IQ/Ben Sheppard
Strus/Watford/Nesmith
Boucher/Morris/Baldwin Jr
Embiid/Landale/Yurtseven
User avatar
JXL
General Manager
Posts: 8,679
And1: 8,382
Joined: Sep 01, 2013
Location: New York
Contact:
     

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#33 » by JXL » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:13 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
JXL wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Knicks have desperately needed a true rebuild for 20+ years but it isn't going to happen under Dolan. Last year was a good chance. We had with no fans in the arena and we still went the win now route. Dolan has a mandate to keep the team competitive so we are just not going to go that route.

Still.....regardless of tank or no tank we just need to make better decisions. The Knicks have had opportunities just haven't always made the right decisions in those spots. At the same time things could be much worse. I don't think the Knicks are in THAT bad of shape so if they can just hit on the right 1 or 2 moves it could help turn everything around.


They're not in bad shape. They have picks, young players, avenues to create cap space if desired, and no long-term albatross contracts. The Knicks can make moves, but it has to be the good ones that make them a contender for this season and beyond.

Also, tanking without a linear plan is horrid. Can't expect a 20-something #1 pick to become a superstar in 2-3 years without having a concrete system around them to focus on their skill. Anthony Bennett is a prime example. Also Ben Simmons, who while is an elite defender, never developed a true jump shot and now is looking like a broken vase.

So, regardless of what record the Knicks have now, I can say they're not a title contending team, but they have avenues to get there without relying on 10+ years of tanking like the Magic/Rockets/Pistons/Process Sixers.


True, tanking isn't always the answer and you need some luck. Plenty of teams have rebuilt while not tanking while plenty of teams have tanked and gone nowhere, and vice versa. There are multiple paths and ways to get there.

It comes down to executing a good plan. So far I would say this regimen has done some things well, and other things not so well. While far from perfect its not doom and gloom either. Like you said, there are avenues to continue to improve the team so it will be a work in progress. Reality is no matter the plan it can be tough to get to that next level and take some time.


At least we agree the OP is butthurt at an 8-7 record when he's seen a roster that started 4-11 and ended going 4-18 and firing a coach who had no business coaching.

Image
BIRD UP!
#OGKENOBI


Follow me on X: @sirJXL
User avatar
JXL
General Manager
Posts: 8,679
And1: 8,382
Joined: Sep 01, 2013
Location: New York
Contact:
     

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#34 » by JXL » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:15 pm

Hes_On_Fire wrote:Of all the years to tank, a year with a loaded draft class like the one in 2021 was the year to do it.

Naturally, we didn’t and we ended up with Grimes, who Thibodeau refuses to play.

We are relying on a veteran roster while we have no superstar or future superstar (sorry RJ) to develop. We are in no man’s land as a franchise and have always been - including last year. I don’t understand what we’re doing and how it was ever a good idea to think this roster was the way to go. We’re not even close to anything. We’re barely an 8th seed with no real future. We have some nice young pieces - Obi, Quickley, RJ - and some unknowns like Grimes and McBride who will never see the light of day with Thibs. There’s no strong foundation here as it currently stands.


Why do you have to be butthurt over an 8-7 start? Were you here when they started 4-11 with a clueless coach?

Image
BIRD UP!
#OGKENOBI


Follow me on X: @sirJXL
User avatar
robillionaire
RealGM
Posts: 34,664
And1: 47,851
Joined: Jul 12, 2015
Location: Asheville
   

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#35 » by robillionaire » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:46 pm

Hes_On_Fire wrote:Of all the years to tank, a year with a loaded draft class like the one in 2021 was the year to do it.

Naturally, we didn’t and we ended up with Grimes, who Thibodeau refuses to play.

We are relying on a veteran roster while we have no superstar or future superstar (sorry RJ) to develop. We are in no man’s land as a franchise and have always been - including last year. I don’t understand what we’re doing and how it was ever a good idea to think this roster was the way to go. We’re not even close to anything. We’re barely an 8th seed with no real future. We have some nice young pieces - Obi, Quickley, RJ - and some unknowns like Grimes and McBride who will never see the light of day with Thibs. There’s no strong foundation here as it currently stands.


the team was too good to actually tank

even if we would have been realistically just a little bit worse, like "play-in" bad which is probably about the worst we could have hoped for, we would have drafted another guy who doesn't play or more than likely traded back to try to get a future pick, just like we did with 19-21 to get Grimes and the future Charlotte pick and with the prior year when we traded back to get IQ and future 2nds

I agree with you that this roster as constructed doesn't have any real future, however clearly they are working toward a bigger goal by hoarding up picks, until they make their moves there's not much of a point to watch the team. Even if you watch to see the development of the young players keep in the back of your head a lot of them are probably just being groomed to play somewhere else when they get traded

What they're doing is sitting around hoping one day they can trade for a star, that's pretty much it. not sure who stays and who goes or if they even pull it off

As far as a timetable goes my guess is that if the team is still mediocre or bad and they haven't got a star in here by summer 2024 leon is getting fired
User avatar
Reign23
RealGM
Posts: 10,774
And1: 10,973
Joined: Dec 29, 2014
Location: Germany.
   

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#36 » by Reign23 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:50 pm

me and a few others, like sham, where beating that drum most of the season. but I was just called miserable when I couldn't get too excited about close wins with a all-vet crunch time 5.
formerly known as knickst4pe
User avatar
iLLmatic860
General Manager
Posts: 9,233
And1: 15,170
Joined: Jan 23, 2013
Location: Tampa
     

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#37 » by iLLmatic860 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:04 pm

Alot of good teams are struggling. We still have time to get our **** together
User avatar
moocow007
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 97,559
And1: 25,022
Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Location: In front of the computer, where else?
       

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#38 » by moocow007 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:12 pm

If you can't build a team you can't build a team...tanking is part of building a team, a tool...one of many...all of which top teams use to build. You cannot build if your front office doesn't know what they're doing (not saying ours don't)...doesn't matter if you tank or not. See Wolves, see Kings, see Cavs, see Pistons, as examples of teams where tanking didn't work. Even with teams like the Warriors and the Sixers, tanking took A LOOOOONG time and even then it was luck...and they also didn't just rely on tanking. Folks thinking that tanking is easier are the same one's that think that give them a good weekend and they'll figure out how to fix their car or if they weren't dropped on their head as a child they'd have easily been a billionaire.
nedleeds
General Manager
Posts: 8,518
And1: 7,648
Joined: Dec 25, 2016
Location: Bridgeport, NY
Contact:
       

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#39 » by nedleeds » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:24 pm

There are large amounts of good hearted posters on this board who

* Thought we won real games last year, in a real season, ignoring the fact that we had the best Covid 'luck' of any team and 2 of our starters were top 5 in minutes

* Thought signing a nice 32 year old guy with no cartilage in one knee for two years was better than a 23 year old who we drafted

* Thought Randle was a top 10 player in the league

* Thought we were closer to the 3 seed than the play in game

* Thought Thibs could coach in game

* Thought Randles shooting in empty arenas against the Flying Thannasises was sustainable

* Actually debated RJ vs. Ja Morant (this one ... holy **** ... :lol: :lol: :lol: )

We don't have a top 25 player anywhere on roster.
We have 3 potential good starter level young players in IQ, Mitch, RJ and Toppin, I'd put them in that order of potential.
We have a coach who would rather play Kemba Walker and Taj Gibon until they collapse, than let IQ and Obi play 30 minutes.
We have a coach who leaves Kemba Walker in for defense possessions at EOG.
We have a coach who would sub out the bench if they were on a 16-0 run because reasons.
We have 4 non-negative contracts on roster (besides the scrubs), Rj, Mitch, IQ and Obi.
We have 4 contracts that are at best neutral but likely would require an asset to get off roster, Randle, Fournier, Kemba, Noel.

We are at best a non-home court East playoff team with a 10% chance to make the second round.
Chanel Bomber wrote:I'm not coming back. This is my last song, and it sheets over your whole career. Go Knicks though.
Ball4life32
Veteran
Posts: 2,969
And1: 2,454
Joined: Dec 05, 2013

Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#40 » by Ball4life32 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:27 pm

Handledatruth wrote:I'm curious how the Hawks feel. They capped out, locked up their coach based on half a year of performance, and are on the way to treadmilling.

No they aren’t and their top guys look fine.

Return to New York Knicks