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Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped

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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#41 » by nedleeds » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:30 pm

JXL wrote:
Hes_On_Fire wrote:Of all the years to tank, a year with a loaded draft class like the one in 2021 was the year to do it.

Naturally, we didn’t and we ended up with Grimes, who Thibodeau refuses to play.

We are relying on a veteran roster while we have no superstar or future superstar (sorry RJ) to develop. We are in no man’s land as a franchise and have always been - including last year. I don’t understand what we’re doing and how it was ever a good idea to think this roster was the way to go. We’re not even close to anything. We’re barely an 8th seed with no real future. We have some nice young pieces - Obi, Quickley, RJ - and some unknowns like Grimes and McBride who will never see the light of day with Thibs. There’s no strong foundation here as it currently stands.


Why do you have to be butthurt over an 8-7 start? Were you here when they started 4-11 with a clueless coach?


I was hoping they'd go 4-78 personally. Instead we won 21 games and got the 8th pick and have Obi Toppin instead of LeMelo Ball.

Now we are the Steve Clifford Bobcats or the Steve Clifford Magic. Utterly useless barely treadmill joke franchise with no future.

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Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#42 » by robillionaire » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:48 pm

nedleeds wrote:
JXL wrote:
Hes_On_Fire wrote:Of all the years to tank, a year with a loaded draft class like the one in 2021 was the year to do it.

Naturally, we didn’t and we ended up with Grimes, who Thibodeau refuses to play.

We are relying on a veteran roster while we have no superstar or future superstar (sorry RJ) to develop. We are in no man’s land as a franchise and have always been - including last year. I don’t understand what we’re doing and how it was ever a good idea to think this roster was the way to go. We’re not even close to anything. We’re barely an 8th seed with no real future. We have some nice young pieces - Obi, Quickley, RJ - and some unknowns like Grimes and McBride who will never see the light of day with Thibs. There’s no strong foundation here as it currently stands.


Why do you have to be butthurt over an 8-7 start? Were you here when they started 4-11 with a clueless coach?


I was hoping they'd go 4-78 personally. Instead we won 21 games and got the 8th pick and have Obi Toppin instead of LeMelo Ball.

Now we are the Steve Clifford Bobcats or the Steve Clifford Magic. Utterly useless barely treadmill joke franchise with no future.

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even if we got a 3-5 range pick they would have just drafted toppin. Hell, they might have taken him first overall. They were trying to trade up to 5th to take him. so rest assured that even if they go 4-78 t the end of the day they will lose the lottery and then do the wrong thing. We had the worst record in the NBA and got No-J
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#43 » by nedleeds » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:58 pm

robillionaire wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
JXL wrote:
Why do you have to be butthurt over an 8-7 start? Were you here when they started 4-11 with a clueless coach?


I was hoping they'd go 4-78 personally. Instead we won 21 games and got the 8th pick and have Obi Toppin instead of LeMelo Ball.

Now we are the Steve Clifford Bobcats or the Steve Clifford Magic. Utterly useless barely treadmill joke franchise with no future.

Image

Image

Image


even if we got a 3-5 range pick they would have just drafted toppin. Hell, they might have taken him first overall. They were trying to trade up to 5th to take him. so rest assured that even if they go 4-78 t the end of the day they will lose the lottery and then do the wrong thing. We had the worst record in the NBA and got No-J


You're probably right. LaMelo falling to 3 wouldn't have been a big enough miracle. They'd have picked the 22 year old guy with culcha and NY rhoots.

We have our own Al Jefferson in Randle, an actual Gerald Henderson in RJ and Mitchmack Biyondo ... and Kemba with about 10 ounces less cartilage.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#44 » by Gravy » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:58 pm

At least now we can all agree
Elfrid Payton was our mvp
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#45 » by nedleeds » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:05 pm



Hahahahahahahahahaha

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Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#46 » by Richard4444 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:23 pm

moocow007 wrote:If you can't build a team you can't build a team...tanking is part of building a team, a tool...one of many...all of which top teams use to build. You cannot build if your front office doesn't know what they're doing (not saying ours don't)...doesn't matter if you tank or not. See Wolves, see Kings, see Cavs, see Pistons, as examples of teams where tanking didn't work. Even with teams like the Warriors and the Sixers, tanking took A LOOOOONG time and even then it was luck...and they also didn't just rely on tanking. Folks thinking that tanking is easier are the same one's that think that give them a good weekend and they'll figure out how to fix their car or if they weren't dropped on their head as a child they'd have easily been a billionaire.


It looks like folks want to apply the following strategy.

1) Trade all the vets for picks.

2) Use cap space to get unwanted contracts for picks.

3) Trade-up picks and draft the BPA.

4) Trade all third-year players if he does not look like a generational star by then. Get picks or a potential young generation star in return.

5) Repeat this operation until grabbing a young generation star in the draft or in a trade.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#47 » by Angryfatboy » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:26 pm

Blow it up
Miami Heat Baf: where tanking happens

PG:Josh giddey
SG:Joshua Primo
SF:Quentin Grimes
PF:Jaden McDaniels
C:James Wiseman



Trade Block: james wiseman, Kemba walker, Luke kennard, Eric Bledsoe, Dwight Howard + more
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#48 » by moocow007 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:29 pm

Gravy wrote:At least now we can all agree
Elfrid Payton was our mvp


"Hey maybe Elfrid's mom was right?"

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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#49 » by NYKinMIA » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:31 pm

god shammgod wrote:it really started to go wrong when randle took a supposed leap. they drafted his replacement and had it in mind to move on from him. they were entertaining trading him that summer. but he just played too well to get rid of. and now we're here.

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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#50 » by spree8 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:59 pm

Man, I’ve been begging for a rebuild since we traded Ewing. I was just a kid, but I remember desperately wanting to draft Amare in 02’ and to tank for Lebron the next year when word got out about him. But, no.

The franchise is cursed. Maybe it’s Dolan, or the rotten media spinning a web of negative energy around the organization, or that we traded Ewing, who knows.

Recently, the biggest mistake was firing Fiz. It went all wrong after that. Brian Windhorst nailed it when Fiz was on The Jump talking about leaving NY, when he said: “I was happy when I thought the Knicks were finally gunna go the route they should’ve after all these years (rebuilding), and felt it could really work this time, but they deviated and went another direction”. Pills thinking we should’ve been a playoff team after signing Morris n Randle.


Fiz had an 18% win rate… perfect for what we needed. Hiring Thibs did exactly what hiring D’Antoni did to us back in the day… he’s the reason we missed out on Steph by 1 draft position. You don’t hire coaches like them during rebuilds. You do it when you’re ready to start competing. We could’ve had Cade, Mobley, Barnes, etc.

I think Leon would’ve definitely drafted LaMelo tho (had we kept Fiz and lost more), and we could’ve likely had a top 3-5 pick this year had we traded Randle for picks last trade deadline. It sucks looking back on what could’ve been, but such is life as a Knick fan.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#51 » by Gravy » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:08 pm

Richard4444 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:If you can't build a team you can't build a team...tanking is part of building a team, a tool...one of many...all of which top teams use to build. You cannot build if your front office doesn't know what they're doing (not saying ours don't)...doesn't matter if you tank or not. See Wolves, see Kings, see Cavs, see Pistons, as examples of teams where tanking didn't work. Even with teams like the Warriors and the Sixers, tanking took A LOOOOONG time and even then it was luck...and they also didn't just rely on tanking. Folks thinking that tanking is easier are the same one's that think that give them a good weekend and they'll figure out how to fix their car or if they weren't dropped on their head as a child they'd have easily been a billionaire.


It looks like folks want to apply the following strategy.

1) Trade all the vets for picks.

2) Use cap space to get unwanted contracts for picks.

3) Trade-up picks and draft the BPA.

4) Trade all third-year players if he does not look like a generational star by then. Get picks or a potential young generation star in return.

5) Repeat this operation until grabbing a young generation star in the draft or in a trade.

The rules here are it only counts as tanking if another team gets a player we like.

For example the Grizzlies tanked for Morant, we got bust RJ so we didnt tank. The Clippers got rid of Tobias Harris and tanked for SGA, we got Knox with a higher pick so we didnt tank.

Using this logic we can continue to whine forever about how every team in the NBA tanks except us.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#52 » by Richard4444 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:30 pm

Gravy wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:If you can't build a team you can't build a team...tanking is part of building a team, a tool...one of many...all of which top teams use to build. You cannot build if your front office doesn't know what they're doing (not saying ours don't)...doesn't matter if you tank or not. See Wolves, see Kings, see Cavs, see Pistons, as examples of teams where tanking didn't work. Even with teams like the Warriors and the Sixers, tanking took A LOOOOONG time and even then it was luck...and they also didn't just rely on tanking. Folks thinking that tanking is easier are the same one's that think that give them a good weekend and they'll figure out how to fix their car or if they weren't dropped on their head as a child they'd have easily been a billionaire.


It looks like folks want to apply the following strategy.

1) Trade all the vets for picks.

2) Use cap space to get unwanted contracts for picks.

3) Trade-up picks and draft the BPA.

4) Trade all third-year players if he does not look like a generational star by then. Get picks or a potential young generation star in return.

5) Repeat this operation until grabbing a young generation star in the draft or in a trade.

The rules here are it only counts as tanking if another team gets a player we like.

For example the Grizzlies tanked for Morant, we got bust RJ so we didnt tank. The Clippers got rid of Tobias Harris and tanked for SGA, we got Knox with a higher pick so we didnt tank.

Using this logic we can continue to whine forever about how every team in the NBA tanks except us.


Yes. I agree with you. We tanked for RJ. But our friends think we have to continue tank until get a true elite young player to build a team around him.

We have to choose one path: tanking or effort/seriousness.

In the end, being a NY franchise, we have more chance to get a superstar in FA some years from now than get a true elite franchise player through the draft. We only need to keep developing a serious approach and keep working to make this team better.

If we choose the tanking path, we will continue to be a laughing stock and not a FA destination. In each draft, there are only 2 or 3 real elite players and we have to be really bad and very lucky to get them. It's all about being bad and having luck.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#53 » by spree8 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:32 pm

Gravy wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:
moocow007 wrote:If you can't build a team you can't build a team...tanking is part of building a team, a tool...one of many...all of which top teams use to build. You cannot build if your front office doesn't know what they're doing (not saying ours don't)...doesn't matter if you tank or not. See Wolves, see Kings, see Cavs, see Pistons, as examples of teams where tanking didn't work. Even with teams like the Warriors and the Sixers, tanking took A LOOOOONG time and even then it was luck...and they also didn't just rely on tanking. Folks thinking that tanking is easier are the same one's that think that give them a good weekend and they'll figure out how to fix their car or if they weren't dropped on their head as a child they'd have easily been a billionaire.


It looks like folks want to apply the following strategy.

1) Trade all the vets for picks.

2) Use cap space to get unwanted contracts for picks.

3) Trade-up picks and draft the BPA.

4) Trade all third-year players if he does not look like a generational star by then. Get picks or a potential young generation star in return.

5) Repeat this operation until grabbing a young generation star in the draft or in a trade.

The rules here are it only counts as tanking if another team gets a player we like.

For example the Grizzlies tanked for Morant, we got bust RJ so we didnt tank. The Clippers got rid of Tobias Harris and tanked for SGA, we got Knox with a higher pick so we didnt tank.

Using this logic we can continue to whine forever about how every team in the NBA tanks except us.



Na, we did tank for RJ n Knox, Pills just drafted the wrong guy with Knox. We didn’t grab the obvious choices in the Bridges’ bros or Porter… not even counting SGA.

You’re not gunna hit every pick outta the park, but you don’t try to compete until you have a good enough core. Which is what we did when we fired Fiz thinking we were done with the rebuild, and when we hired Thibs. Just keep playing the young guys until we land enough talent in the draft and free agency to start really competing… then get the right coach.

I don’t know wtf they saw in the roster at these times to make them think we were a finished product. We need star power and the best place for that is the draft.

We’ve done this method for over 20 years and it hasn’t worked. People are afraid to take 5 years to rebuild, they’d rather take 20-30 years of being a treadmill team as long as we fool ourselves into believing we’re actually competing.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#54 » by BugginOut » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:36 pm

Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#55 » by spree8 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:42 pm

BugginOut wrote:Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference



I want to root for a losing team? Hey jacksss, I’ve been rooting for a losing team that was trying to actually win for the last 20+ years. I’m smart enough to know that the quick fix doesn’t work. Dunno how the fuq you think doing the same shyt every year is going to change things.

I grew up watching the early/late 90’s Knicks as a child/teen… I want that again, and know what it takes to get there. The same thing that the majority of the other historic championship teams did… get their superstars via the top of the draft.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#56 » by Spree2Houston » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:43 pm

Part of the argument for tanking is doing it in the correct years. For example - this year would be a terrible year to tank. It’s a weak draft class. I’m alright with the team “competing” and making the playoffs.

However, last year was the right year to tank. We would’ve been better today with any of the top 5 picks from the 2021 draft and further along in our rebuild. But the Knicks will be the Knicks. They suck for 20 years and decide to make the playoffs in the year of a generational draft
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#57 » by BugginOut » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:44 pm

spree8 wrote:
Gravy wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:
It looks like folks want to apply the following strategy.

1) Trade all the vets for picks.

2) Use cap space to get unwanted contracts for picks.

3) Trade-up picks and draft the BPA.

4) Trade all third-year players if he does not look like a generational star by then. Get picks or a potential young generation star in return.

5) Repeat this operation until grabbing a young generation star in the draft or in a trade.

The rules here are it only counts as tanking if another team gets a player we like.

For example the Grizzlies tanked for Morant, we got bust RJ so we didnt tank. The Clippers got rid of Tobias Harris and tanked for SGA, we got Knox with a higher pick so we didnt tank.

Using this logic we can continue to whine forever about how every team in the NBA tanks except us.



Na, we did tank for RJ n Knox, Pills just drafted the wrong guy with Knox. We didn’t grab the obvious choices in the Bridges’ bros or Porter… not even counting SGA.

You’re not gunna hit every pick outta the park, but you don’t try to compete until you have a good enough core. Which is what we did when we fired Fiz thinking we were done with the rebuild, and when we hired Thibs. Just keep playing the young guys until we land enough talent in the draft and free agency to start really competing… then get the right coach.

I don’t know wtf they saw in the roster at these times to make them think we were a finished product. We need star power and the best place for that is the draft.

We’ve done this method for over 20 years and it hasn’t worked. People are afraid to take 5 years to rebuild, they’d rather take 20-30 years of being a treadmill team as long as we fool ourselves into believing we’re actually competing.

Add Mikal or Miles to this team, does it really fix anything? We still need a 1A to win a championship.

Even if we drafted Porter does him and his contract help us win? He just signed the max and his back is looking like it is breaking down again.

The reality is that you need a top 10 player in his prime to win a championship. We can’t sit around and wait on dumb luck to find that player and then spend another 8 years for that player to reach his prime. The way the front office is building a championship is the right way.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#58 » by spree8 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:47 pm

BugginOut wrote:
spree8 wrote:
Gravy wrote:The rules here are it only counts as tanking if another team gets a player we like.

For example the Grizzlies tanked for Morant, we got bust RJ so we didnt tank. The Clippers got rid of Tobias Harris and tanked for SGA, we got Knox with a higher pick so we didnt tank.

Using this logic we can continue to whine forever about how every team in the NBA tanks except us.



Na, we did tank for RJ n Knox, Pills just drafted the wrong guy with Knox. We didn’t grab the obvious choices in the Bridges’ bros or Porter… not even counting SGA.

You’re not gunna hit every pick outta the park, but you don’t try to compete until you have a good enough core. Which is what we did when we fired Fiz thinking we were done with the rebuild, and when we hired Thibs. Just keep playing the young guys until we land enough talent in the draft and free agency to start really competing… then get the right coach.

I don’t know wtf they saw in the roster at these times to make them think we were a finished product. We need star power and the best place for that is the draft.

We’ve done this method for over 20 years and it hasn’t worked. People are afraid to take 5 years to rebuild, they’d rather take 20-30 years of being a treadmill team as long as we fool ourselves into believing we’re actually competing.

Add Mikal or Miles to this team, does it really fix anything? We still need a 1A to win a championship.

Even if we drafted Porter does him and his contract help us win? He just signed the max and his back is looking like it is breaking down again.

The reality is that you need a top 10 player in his prime to win a championship. We can’t sit around and wait on dumb luck to find that player and then spend another 8 years for that player to reach his prime. The way the front office is building a championship is the right way.



That’s why rebuilding is a multi year process. I’d rather rebuild for 5-7 years to find that superstar than put together a treadmill team that caps out at losing in the first round of the playoffs as it’s best case scenario for 20+ years and counting.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#59 » by Chanel Bomber » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:49 pm

JXL wrote:
EricAnderson wrote:I’m usually someone who’s about rebuilding and not taking shortcuts to make the playoffs and even I got caught up in last year because it was so much fun and weve been bad for so long.

But in reality it was the type of year a lot of us complain about. Team with no franchise player and limited upside making the playoffs and not having a high pick to try to get a star player.

Let’s forget the FA pipe dream we’ve been burned on that enough. It isn’t happening.

Our only hope to contention at this point is two disgruntled stars want to come here (I’m not holding my breath for one to do that never mind two.) because let’s be honest even if we got a Dane we’re not winning a title.


Can we blame Dolan again? Or is this another "Knicks sky is falling" rhetoric?


It's dudes like you and GreenArrow that makes the Knicks fanbase toxic. LET. THEM. WORK. IT. OUT.

Dolan is the root of the problem.

He hires incompetent people to run the franchise, and he lacks ambition as soon as the Knicks are semi-respectable, because the Knicks have been so bad under his watch that a mere playoff appearance is treated as success (when actually more than half the teams make the playoffs). It's why the Knicks amnestied Billups instead of Stoudemire, why the Knicks extended Randle after just one playoff appearance, and why the Knicks only tanked once in 20 years.

The problem is Dolan's complete lack of long-term thinking and situational awareness. The Knicks are always scrambling because of it.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#60 » by Richard4444 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:52 pm

spree8 wrote:
Gravy wrote:
Richard4444 wrote:
It looks like folks want to apply the following strategy.

1) Trade all the vets for picks.

2) Use cap space to get unwanted contracts for picks.

3) Trade-up picks and draft the BPA.

4) Trade all third-year players if he does not look like a generational star by then. Get picks or a potential young generation star in return.

5) Repeat this operation until grabbing a young generation star in the draft or in a trade.

The rules here are it only counts as tanking if another team gets a player we like.

For example the Grizzlies tanked for Morant, we got bust RJ so we didnt tank. The Clippers got rid of Tobias Harris and tanked for SGA, we got Knox with a higher pick so we didnt tank.

Using this logic we can continue to whine forever about how every team in the NBA tanks except us.



Na, we did tank for RJ n Knox, Pills just drafted the wrong guy with Knox. We didn’t grab the obvious choices in the Bridges’ bros or Porter… not even counting SGA.

You’re not gunna hit every pick outta the park, but you don’t try to compete until you have a good enough core. Which is what we did when we fired Fiz thinking we were done with the rebuild, and when we hired Thibs. Just keep playing the young guys until we land enough talent in the draft and free agency to start really competing… then get the right coach.

I don’t know wtf they saw in the roster at these times to make them think we were a finished product. We need star power and the best place for that is the draft.

We’ve done this method for over 20 years and it hasn’t worked. People are afraid to take 5 years to rebuild, they’d rather take 20-30 years of being a treadmill team as long as we fool ourselves into believing we’re actually competing.


We are not in the same place that we were in the last 20 years. We used to go all in to build a team around the wrong veteran stars/fit. First with Marbury, Ed Curry. Then with Stat and Melo. We built real treadmill teams with aging rosters, long contracts, few picks, fighting for the 8th seed.

Now we have a young roster (Randle is 26), short contracts, a lot of picks. We could develop talented players or trade them for an established star. We are not a treadmill team.

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