Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped

[BugginOut]

Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference

I want to root for a losing team? Hey jacksss, I’ve been rooting for a losing team that was trying to actually win for the last 20+ years. I’m smart enough to know that the quick fix doesn’t work. Dunno how the fuq you think doing the same shyt every year is going to change things.

I grew up watching the early/late 90’s Knicks as a child/teen… I want that again, and know what it takes to get there. The same thing that the majority of the other historic championship teams did… get their superstars via the top of the draft.

No need to call names. I just disagree on your method on how to build a team. We have been in the lotto since 2014, how many years do we need to tank before we build a team together?

We have at least one draft pick from every draft since 2018 (Mitch, RJ, IQ, Obi) playing rotation minutes for us. How many more prospects do we need.

You might get lucky and draft a top 15 player of all time in Steph and Giannis, but that isn’t a realistic way to build a championship and even those players were picked in the late lottery.

[Handledatruth]

I'm curious how the Hawks feel. They capped out, locked up their coach based on half a year of performance, and are on the way to treadmilling.

No they aren’t and their top guys look fine.

Anything less than ECF is not fine for them. This will be a reality seeing how the East is shaping up. People on this board like using the term treadmill. Well that will be the Hawks. At least our contracts have outs and are not maxed.

[Gravy]

It looks like folks want to apply the following strategy.

1) Trade all the vets for picks.

2) Use cap space to get unwanted contracts for picks.

3) Trade-up picks and draft the BPA.

4) Trade all third-year players if he does not look like a generational star by then. Get picks or a potential young generation star in return.

5) Repeat this operation until grabbing a young generation star in the draft or in a trade.

The rules here are it only counts as tanking if another team gets a player we like.

For example the Grizzlies tanked for Morant, we got bust RJ so we didnt tank. The Clippers got rid of Tobias Harris and tanked for SGA, we got Knox with a higher pick so we didnt tank.

Using this logic we can continue to whine forever about how every team in the NBA tanks except us.

Na, we did tank for RJ n Knox, Pills just drafted the wrong guy with Knox. We didn’t grab the obvious choices in the Bridges’ bros or Porter… not even counting SGA.

You’re not gunna hit every pick outta the park, but you don’t try to compete until you have a good enough core. Which is what we did when we fired Fiz thinking we were done with the rebuild, and when we hired Thibs. Just keep playing the young guys until we land enough talent in the draft and free agency to start really competing… then get the right coach.

I don’t know wtf they saw in the roster at these times to make them think we were a finished product. We need star power and the best place for that is the draft.

We’ve done this method for over 20 years and it hasn’t worked. People are afraid to take 5 years to rebuild, they’d rather take 20-30 years of being a treadmill team as long as we fool ourselves into believing we’re actually competing.

They fired Fizdale because he was terrible and none of the youth was developing.

We had the opportunity multiple times to draft great players, Booker, SGA, Donovan Mitchell etc.

[BugginOut]

Na, we did tank for RJ n Knox, Pills just drafted the wrong guy with Knox. We didn’t grab the obvious choices in the Bridges’ bros or Porter… not even counting SGA.

You’re not gunna hit every pick outta the park, but you don’t try to compete until you have a good enough core. Which is what we did when we fired Fiz thinking we were done with the rebuild, and when we hired Thibs. Just keep playing the young guys until we land enough talent in the draft and free agency to start really competing… then get the right coach.

I don’t know wtf they saw in the roster at these times to make them think we were a finished product. We need star power and the best place for that is the draft.

We’ve done this method for over 20 years and it hasn’t worked. People are afraid to take 5 years to rebuild, they’d rather take 20-30 years of being a treadmill team as long as we fool ourselves into believing we’re actually competing.

Add Mikal or Miles to this team, does it really fix anything? We still need a 1A to win a championship.

Even if we drafted Porter does him and his contract help us win? He just signed the max and his back is looking like it is breaking down again.

The reality is that you need a top 10 player in his prime to win a championship. We can’t sit around and wait on dumb luck to find that player and then spend another 8 years for that player to reach his prime. The way the front office is building a championship is the right way.

That’s why rebuilding is a multi year process. I’d rather rebuild for 5-7 years to find that superstar than put together a treadmill team that caps out at losing in the first round of the playoffs as it’s best case scenario for 20+ years and counting.

But how do you know when you find that superstar?

Sixers thought it was Ben Simmons, but he hasn’t improved and is stuck on a max. Celtics think Tatum is a superstar, but he is playing even worse than Randle and doesn’t project to have the playmaking to be a legit 1A

Denver and Memphis just signed MPJ and JJJ to near max contracts, and both of this players look broken down. Betting on their potential might have killed both those teams cap space. Cade isn’t even looking that good and he went #1 in a supposed generational draft.

Every method has risk. At this point we have a flexible roster. All we can do is pray Randle doesn’t fall off, that RJ and the other young players take the leap and that a major star asks our in the near future.

[Chanel Bomber]

Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference

That's right, but these contenders generally had a generational talent, who simply needed time to become an impactful player.

So yes the Warriors and the Bucks lost their fair share of playoff series before winning the chip, but these teams just needed time until Curry and Giannis came of age, and until the organizations put the right pieces around them.

This Knicks team doesn't have that talent on the roster. Not even close. Our level of talent is more comparable to the Gordon-Vucevic-Fournier Magic.

The free agent market will be dry for the next few years. As far as trades are concerned, none of the rumored players really move the needle, and the Knicks' assets are probably depreciating as we speak. And the team is too good to tank - not that Dolan would allow it anyway, especially with Brooklyn being a contender.

The Knicks need a reset. Either go all in and make a big trade, or trade Randle, Fournier and even RJ for picks and young players.

[Richard4444]

I'm curious how the Hawks feel. They capped out, locked up their coach based on half a year of performance, and are on the way to treadmilling.

No they aren’t and their top guys look fine.

Anything less than ECF is not fine for them. This will be a reality seeing how the East is shaping up. People on this board like using the term treadmill. Well that will be the Hawks. At least our contracts have outs and are not maxed.

Hawks are not a treadmill team. They have a really young core (Trae, Collins, Capela) that should evolve until they hit their prime. They have their picks and a lot of young players (Hunter, Reddish, Jalen Johnson, Cooper). They should get better.

[TrueWarrior]

Truth is it seemed like we finally found our guy (or a big piece of the puzzle at least) when we had KP, but then he got hurt, wanted out, and then we traded him without trying to reconcile things. He's been hurt a lot and played up and down ever since, but he's been playing great lately. What's done is done though and Im not gonna lose sleep over a dude who bounced on us. Now we have Randle for better or worse.

We haven't had a young player as good as KP since though. Picked Frank and Knox after him who are bums. RJ looks like a solid starter, but not a star. Same with Mitch. Maybe Obi & IQ are but they aren't getting the chance to show it yet and who knows if they ever will here. Grimes and Deuce look like promising 2 way guards but they are TBD.

However, this team is set up to make a big trade. We have a lot of depth who can step in after a big trade unlike other years, and we have picks. We can def put together a strong package for somebody. Whoever we trade for just needs to be a legit all around young star and not another Melo, Marbury, ZBo, etc. The great ones don't usually get traded like that, but it has happened in recent years. Free agency and tanking haven't worked out for us. Leon is doing the right thing and being patient for now so we'll see what he does.

[BugginOut]

Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference

That's right, but these contenders generally had a generational talent, who simply needed time to become an impactful player.

So yes the Warriors and the Bucks lost their fair share of playoff series before winning the chip, but these teams just needed time until Curry and Giannis came of age, and until the organizations put the right pieces around them.

This Knicks team doesn't have that talent on the roster. Not even close. Our level of talent is more comparable to the Gordon-Vucevic-Fournier Magic.

The free agent market will be dry for the next few years. As far as trades are concerned, none of the rumored players really move the needle, and the Knicks' assets are probably depreciating as we speak. And the team is too good to tank - not that Dolan would allow it anyway, especially with Brooklyn being a contender.

The Knicks need a reset. Either go all in and make a big trade, or trade Randle, Fournier and even RJ for picks and young players.

How do you know are young players can’t make the leap or this team can’t build.

No one knew Steph was going to break out. That’s why his first contract was way below market and he didn’t even make his first all-star team until year 5. Giannis wasn’t an all-star until year 4 and even then spent two years as a 6th and 7th seed until making it to the next tier.

We also don’t need a generational player. All of our young players in rotation (RJ, Mitch, Quick, Obi) have shown allstar potential. Randle is 26 and can still get better too. There is no rush or pressure to make any moves

[spree8]

Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference

I want to root for a losing team? Hey jacksss, I’ve been rooting for a losing team that was trying to actually win for the last 20+ years. I’m smart enough to know that the quick fix doesn’t work. Dunno how the fuq you think doing the same shyt every year is going to change things.

I grew up watching the early/late 90’s Knicks as a child/teen… I want that again, and know what it takes to get there. The same thing that the majority of the other historic championship teams did… get their superstars via the top of the draft.

No need to call names. I just disagree on your method on how to build a team. We have been in the lotto since 2014, how many years do we need to tank before we build a team together?

We have at least one draft pick from every draft since 2018 (Mitch, RJ, IQ, Obi) playing rotation minutes for us. How many more prospects do we need.

You might get lucky and draft a top 15 player of all time in Steph and Giannis, but that isn’t a realistic way to build a championship and even those players were picked in the late lottery.

Ehh, you shouldn’t take shots.

This method is tried n true tho… do you need a top 5 pick all the time? No. But it certainly helps since about 95% of the best players of all time were taken top 5 (Bird n Steph at 6 & 7).

[Gravy]

Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference

This board was happiest when Fizdale and Knox were leading us to the worst record... all to draft RJ Barrett who they cant wait to get rid of.lol

But the next time its supposed to be different.

[Chanel Bomber]

Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference

That's right, but these contenders generally had a generational talent, who simply needed time to become an impactful player.

So yes the Warriors and the Bucks lost their fair share of playoff series before winning the chip, but these teams just needed time until Curry and Giannis came of age, and until the organizations put the right pieces around them.

This Knicks team doesn't have that talent on the roster. Not even close. Our level of talent is more comparable to the Gordon-Vucevic-Fournier Magic.

The free agent market will be dry for the next few years. As far as trades are concerned, none of the rumored players really move the needle, and the Knicks' assets are probably depreciating as we speak. And the team is too good to tank - not that Dolan would allow it anyway, especially with Brooklyn being a contender.

The Knicks need a reset. Either go all in and make a big trade, or trade Randle, Fournier and even RJ for picks and young players.

How do you know are young players can’t make the leap or this team can’t build.

No one knew Steph was going to break out. That’s why his first contract was way below market and he didn’t even make his first all-star team until year 5. Giannis wasn’t an all-star until year 4 and even then spent two years as a 6th and 7th seed until making it to the next tier.

We also don’t need a generational player. All of our young players in rotation (RJ, Mitch, Quick, Obi) have shown allstar potential. Randle is 26 and can still get better too. There is no rush or pressure to make any moves

9 out of 10 championship teams have a generational talent. That's just how it is.

Curry and Giannis were highly efficient almost right out of the gate (year 2 for Giannis). It was obvious very early that they were special talents. Curry signed that bargain contract strictly because of health concerns, not because of talent. It's true no one predicted that he would become that great, but it was pretty obvious he was going to become a perennial All-Star if healthy.

Giannis didn't become an All-Star until year 4 but his upside was evident. His scoring efficiency was well-above average ever since his rookie year. People understood that it was just going to take time, but it was pretty obvious that his ceiling was sky-high.

Neither Randle nor RJ will ever reach those heights. Neither has a particularly high ceiling. I've come to accept that with RJ.

There's a one in a hundred chance that IQ or Obi becomes a real difference-maker. Simply because the shots they hunt are high-percentage shots, which generally drive the success of an offense. Still, they are limited players as of today, and they haven't shown the flashes that Curry or Giannis did very early in their careers.

You don't win championships with 2-3 low-end All-Stars. You win with a superstar/s, and the right mix of players around him/them.

[prophet_of_rage]

it really started to go wrong when randle took a supposed leap. they drafted his replacement and had it in mind to move on from him. they were entertaining trading him that summer. but he just played too well to get rid of. and now we're here.

A smarter front office would have seen his season and realized it was a contract year, the Clippers wisely dumped Tobias Harris during a 21/8/3 season he was having for them, because even the prospect of a draft pick was better than having to pay him a max.

They strongly believed they could land Kawhi. Of course, we would dump Randle if you could land a healthy Kawhi plus another better player like PG13 in his place.

The truth is we do not have better stars on our radar for the time being. We will not trade Randle for a collection of bad picks/second-tier young players.

Last time, we have a shot at getting a true star. We made a really bold deal. Trading the best player we drafted for quite a time for cap space basically.

In addition to that, I doubt Randle has great value right now. The market should lowball his price due to the underwhelming performance since the Hawks series.

They knew Kawhu was coming. It was no belief.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[BugginOut]

That's right, but these contenders generally had a generational talent, who simply needed time to become an impactful player.

So yes the Warriors and the Bucks lost their fair share of playoff series before winning the chip, but these teams just needed time until Curry and Giannis came of age, and until the organizations put the right pieces around them.

This Knicks team doesn't have that talent on the roster. Not even close. Our level of talent is more comparable to the Gordon-Vucevic-Fournier Magic.

The free agent market will be dry for the next few years. As far as trades are concerned, none of the rumored players really move the needle, and the Knicks' assets are probably depreciating as we speak. And the team is too good to tank - not that Dolan would allow it anyway, especially with Brooklyn being a contender.

The Knicks need a reset. Either go all in and make a big trade, or trade Randle, Fournier and even RJ for picks and young players.

How do you know are young players can’t make the leap or this team can’t build.

No one knew Steph was going to break out. That’s why his first contract was way below market and he didn’t even make his first all-star team until year 5. Giannis wasn’t an all-star until year 4 and even then spent two years as a 6th and 7th seed until making it to the next tier.

We also don’t need a generational player. All of our young players in rotation (RJ, Mitch, Quick, Obi) have shown allstar potential. Randle is 26 and can still get better too. There is no rush or pressure to make any moves

9 out of 10 championship teams have a generational talent. That's just how it is.

Curry and Giannis were highly efficient almost right out of the gate (year 2 for Giannis). It was obvious very early that they were special talents. Curry signed that bargain contract strictly because of health concerns, not because of talent. It's true no one predicted that he would become that great, but it was pretty obvious he was going to become a perennial All-Star if healthy.

Giannis didn't become an All-Star until year 4 but his upside was evident. His scoring efficiency was well-above average ever since his rookie year. People understood that it was just going to take time, but it was pretty obvious that his ceiling was sky-high.

Neither Randle nor RJ will ever reach those heights. Neither has a particularly high ceiling. I've come to accept that with RJ.

There's a one in a hundred chance that IQ or Obi becomes a real difference-maker. Simply because the shots they hunt are high-percentage shots, which generally drive the success of an offense. Still, they are limited players as of today, and they haven't shown the flashes that Curry or Giannis did very early in their careers.

You don't win championships with 2-3 low-end All-Stars. You win with a superstar/s, and the right mix of players around him/them.

Even though I agree with you, the point is moot. We weren’t going to find the player in the draft so the best bet is to keep building and hopefully make a trade or hope one of our guys defy the odds and breakout.

Tanking was never going to be the solution

[Chanel Bomber]

How do you know are young players can’t make the leap or this team can’t build.

No one knew Steph was going to break out. That’s why his first contract was way below market and he didn’t even make his first all-star team until year 5. Giannis wasn’t an all-star until year 4 and even then spent two years as a 6th and 7th seed until making it to the next tier.

We also don’t need a generational player. All of our young players in rotation (RJ, Mitch, Quick, Obi) have shown allstar potential. Randle is 26 and can still get better too. There is no rush or pressure to make any moves

9 out of 10 championship teams have a generational talent. That's just how it is.

Curry and Giannis were highly efficient almost right out of the gate (year 2 for Giannis). It was obvious very early that they were special talents. Curry signed that bargain contract strictly because of health concerns, not because of talent. It's true no one predicted that he would become that great, but it was pretty obvious he was going to become a perennial All-Star if healthy.

Giannis didn't become an All-Star until year 4 but his upside was evident. His scoring efficiency was well-above average ever since his rookie year. People understood that it was just going to take time, but it was pretty obvious that his ceiling was sky-high.

Neither Randle nor RJ will ever reach those heights. Neither has a particularly high ceiling. I've come to accept that with RJ.

There's a one in a hundred chance that IQ or Obi becomes a real difference-maker. Simply because the shots they hunt are high-percentage shots, which generally drive the success of an offense. Still, they are limited players as of today, and they haven't shown the flashes that Curry or Giannis did very early in their careers.

You don't win championships with 2-3 low-end All-Stars. You win with a superstar/s, and the right mix of players around him/them.

Even though I agree with you, the point is moot. We weren’t going to find the player in the draft so the best bet is to keep building and hopefully make a trade or hope one of our guys defy the odds and breakout.

Tanking was never going to be the solution

How is tanking not - at the very least - one potential solution? And why were we so obviously not going to find that player in the draft?

The odds of landing a franchise player with a top 5 pick are higher than either RJ, Obi or Quickley ever becoming a superstar imo.

The Knicks only tanked once in the last 20 years (in 2018-19), Just because we were in the lottery doesn't mean the organization was tanking. They were not losing on purpose, they were losing because the men in charge were incompetent.

Hopefully you're right. I do believe IQ and Obi have a higher ceiling than Randle and RJ, so the front office would be smart to prioritize them in the way they assess the roster and build the team. Which is why I would trade Randle now - seeing that the team is going nowhere with him - and let the kids swim on their own. We have the right vets in Rose and Taj.

[spree8]

Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference

This board was happiest when Fizdale and Knox were leading us to the worst record... all to draft RJ Barrett who they cant wait to get rid of.lol

But the next time its supposed to be different.

Hey, that comes with the territory. Take the good with the bad, but we should’ve taken scouting and development much more seriously earlier on (like we do now even tho this admin isn’t drafting at the top) so that we didn’t fail epically on picks like Knox.

Teams don’t just draft Jordan or Lebron the first year they start rebuilding, if it takes a few years, so be it. It’s better than throwing shyt at the wall and hoping it sticks for 20+ years.

[spree8]

The rules here are it only counts as tanking if another team gets a player we like.

For example the Grizzlies tanked for Morant, we got bust RJ so we didnt tank. The Clippers got rid of Tobias Harris and tanked for SGA, we got Knox with a higher pick so we didnt tank.

Using this logic we can continue to whine forever about how every team in the NBA tanks except us.

Na, we did tank for RJ n Knox, Pills just drafted the wrong guy with Knox. We didn’t grab the obvious choices in the Bridges’ bros or Porter… not even counting SGA.

You’re not gunna hit every pick outta the park, but you don’t try to compete until you have a good enough core. Which is what we did when we fired Fiz thinking we were done with the rebuild, and when we hired Thibs. Just keep playing the young guys until we land enough talent in the draft and free agency to start really competing… then get the right coach.

I don’t know wtf they saw in the roster at these times to make them think we were a finished product. We need star power and the best place for that is the draft.

We’ve done this method for over 20 years and it hasn’t worked. People are afraid to take 5 years to rebuild, they’d rather take 20-30 years of being a treadmill team as long as we fool ourselves into believing we’re actually competing.

We are not in the same place that we were in the last 20 years. We used to go all in to build a team around the wrong veteran stars/fit. First with Marbury, Ed Curry. Then with Stat and Melo. We built real treadmill teams with aging rosters, long contracts, few picks, fighting for the 8th seed.

Now we have a young roster (Randle is 26), short contracts, a lot of picks. We could develop talented players or trade them for an established star. We are not a treadmill team.

It may not be the exact same situation, but we don’t have cap space for a max player this year (Beal or LaVine… shyt, even Harden) or a top draft pick. How are we going to improve? Hoping a star asks out? Sure, that’s another way, but an unlikely one for us being that we don’t have much to trade for one. And if we did, we’d be in the Melo situation all over again where we have nothing left to help them compete. Randle is not a #2 on a championship team.

[FutureKnicksGM]

Tanking and getting any of the top 5 picks would have been a better outcome. Instead we got our culos blasted by the Hawks which brought nothing of value. Last year was the perfect season to punt on due to the lack of fans for the majority of the season.

We are a play in team which is a step back from last season.

Which of the top 5 picks are going to be #1 guys on a contender? 3 of them currently shoot worse than rookie Kevin Knox.

[spree8]

All I’ve ever wanted was for us to hire a young coach (like teams did with Nurse, Lue, Kerr, etc) who could grow with our rebuild, and just commit 5 years minimum to drafting at the top of the lotto and developing those players. Let those kids get the playing time. Maybe get some cheap locker room minimum salary veterans to help teach the kids.

Coaches and players don’t try to lose, but it will happen thru their inexperience. As a result, we’d get blessed with a top pick. It’s still fun to go to or watch the games because you’re rooting for the young guys to grow and learn the craft. If they win, cool, if not, they learn. It’s an investment into a possible future championship.

After a couple years, if you’ve assembled a promising core, then you can make a splash in free agency.

It’s that simple. The word “tank” has a weird stigma to it… when in actuality, it’s pretty harmless and beneficial in the long run. If we’re losing anyway, why not lose that way instead, where we at least have a brighter future?

[spree8]

Tanking and getting any of the top 5 picks would have been a better outcome. Instead we got our culos blasted by the Hawks which brought nothing of value. Last year was the perfect season to punt on due to the lack of fans for the majority of the season.

We are a play in team which is a step back from last season.

Which of the top 5 picks are going to be #1 guys on a contender? 3 of them currently shoot worse than rookie Kevin Knox.

Cade started slow because of his ankle injury… it messed with his shot big time. If you’ve seen him since the first couple games, the dude is balling big time. Mobley looks like a generational big. Barnes is also already looking like a perennial All-Star.

[Gravy]

The 2 best young players in the finals last year weren't even top 10 picks. Booker and Giannis.

You can find franchise players all over the draft, we missed on a few. Its more important to have a GM that can find the talent and a coach that can develop it or you end up like the Wolves and Kings. Signing good vets is also overlooked. How much better would we be with guys like CP3/Vanvleet/Rubio instead of Payton or Kemba?