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Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped

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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#81 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:26 pm

FutureKnicksGM wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Tanking and getting any of the top 5 picks would have been a better outcome. Instead we got our culos blasted by the Hawks which brought nothing of value. Last year was the perfect season to punt on due to the lack of fans for the majority of the season.

We are a play in team which is a step back from last season.


Which of the top 5 picks are going to be #1 guys on a contender? 3 of them currently shoot worse than rookie Kevin Knox.



Accurate screen name if you can't see the talent those 5 players have.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#82 » by spree8 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:29 pm

Gravy wrote:The 2 best young players in the finals last year weren't even top 10 picks. Booker and Giannis.

You can find franchise players all over the draft, we missed on a few. Its more important to have a GM that can find the talent and a coach that can develop it or you end up like the Wolves and Kings. Signing good vets is also overlooked. How much better would we be with guys like CP3/Vanvleet/Rubio instead of Payton or Kemba?



Giannis n Kawhi are the two biggest exceptions to the rule. Kobe was in high school and they drafted those players differently back then.

We definitely do need a good staff to help develop and a great scouting team… we have those things now thankfully, but drafting at the top is very important. Just take a look at the greatest players ever and see their draft positions….
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#83 » by HEZI » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:35 pm

We could have had an excellent core with the picks we had if we just drafted better. We missed out on a lot of talent over the years
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#84 » by FutureKnicksGM » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:03 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
FutureKnicksGM wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Tanking and getting any of the top 5 picks would have been a better outcome. Instead we got our culos blasted by the Hawks which brought nothing of value. Last year was the perfect season to punt on due to the lack of fans for the majority of the season.

We are a play in team which is a step back from last season.


Which of the top 5 picks are going to be #1 guys on a contender? 3 of them currently shoot worse than rookie Kevin Knox.



Accurate screen name if you can't see the talent those 5 players have.


:lol: it's not a trick question, tell us what they are if you can see their talent.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#85 » by FutureKnicksGM » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:06 am

How many pages is the bust thread on this board if we tanked and got Cade, Jalen or Suggs?
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#86 » by BugginOut » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:32 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:
BugginOut wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:9 out of 10 championship teams have a generational talent. That's just how it is.

Curry and Giannis were highly efficient almost right out of the gate (year 2 for Giannis). It was obvious very early that they were special talents. Curry signed that bargain contract strictly because of health concerns, not because of talent. It's true no one predicted that he would become that great, but it was pretty obvious he was going to become a perennial All-Star if healthy.

Giannis didn't become an All-Star until year 4 but his upside was evident. His scoring efficiency was well-above average ever since his rookie year. People understood that it was just going to take time, but it was pretty obvious that his ceiling was sky-high.

Neither Randle nor RJ will ever reach those heights. Neither has a particularly high ceiling. I've come to accept that with RJ.

There's a one in a hundred chance that IQ or Obi becomes a real difference-maker. Simply because the shots they hunt are high-percentage shots, which generally drive the success of an offense. Still, they are limited players as of today, and they haven't shown the flashes that Curry or Giannis did very early in their careers.

You don't win championships with 2-3 low-end All-Stars. You win with a superstar/s, and the right mix of players around him/them.

Even though I agree with you, the point is moot. We weren’t going to find the player in the draft so the best bet is to keep building and hopefully make a trade or hope one of our guys defy the odds and breakout.

Tanking was never going to be the solution

How is tanking not - at the very least - one potential solution? And why were we so obviously not going to find that player in the draft?

The odds of landing a franchise player with a top 5 pick are higher than either RJ, Obi or Quickley ever becoming a superstar imo.

The Knicks only tanked once in the last 20 years (in 2018-19), Just because we were in the lottery doesn't mean the organization was tanking. They were not losing on purpose, they were losing because the men in charge were incompetent.

Hopefully you're right. I do believe IQ and Obi have a higher ceiling than Randle and RJ, so the front office would be smart to prioritize them in the way they assess the roster and build the team. Which is why I would trade Randle now - seeing that the team is going nowhere with him - and let the kids swim on their own. We have the right vets in Rose and Taj.

Between 2015-2020 drafts when we had lottery pick, but apparently not tanking “correctly” only three teams (MIN, PHI, PHO) had more top 5 picks than us 2015 (KP), 2019(RJ). This is who they drafted

PHO: Dragan Bender, Josh Jackson, Deandre Ayton
PHI: Jakil Okafor, Ben Simmons, Markelle Fultz
MIN: KAT, Kris Dunn, Anthony Edwards (even worse record than us)

Most of those years were before the now sh*tty lottery odds.

Tanking doesn’t work, because historically it has not worked. There is only one instance in which a team tanked a season to get a generational player that went on to win with that team and that is the Tim Duncan Spurs.

If you actually do draft a good player you won’t be able to tank long anyway because if that player is actually capable of being generational you will be too good to tank again.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#87 » by E-Balla » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:37 am

BugginOut wrote:
spree8 wrote:
BugginOut wrote:Now we reached the point where we are saying firing Fizdale was a mistake lol.

I swear some of you just want to root for a losing team because it’s easy. No expectations to win and you can dream about drafting the next Lebron every year. You don’t go from the lotto to contender overnight. This was always a gap year going in. Whether we finish 4th or 8th makes no difference



I want to root for a losing team? Hey jacksss, I’ve been rooting for a losing team that was trying to actually win for the last 20+ years. I’m smart enough to know that the quick fix doesn’t work. Dunno how the fuq you think doing the same shyt every year is going to change things.

I grew up watching the early/late 90’s Knicks as a child/teen… I want that again, and know what it takes to get there. The same thing that the majority of the other historic championship teams did… get their superstars via the top of the draft.

No need to call names. I just disagree on your method on how to build a team. We have been in the lotto since 2014, how many years do we need to tank before we build a team together?

We have at least one draft pick from every draft since 2018 (Mitch, RJ, IQ, Obi) playing rotation minutes for us. How many more prospects do we need.

You might get lucky and draft a top 15 player of all time in Steph and Giannis, but that isn’t a realistic way to build a championship and even those players were picked in the late lottery.

This is the funniest part. 5 of the last 7 MVPs were drafted outside the top 5.

The current basketball reference MVP ladder is:

1. Steph, drafted 7th.
2. Jokic, drafted 41st.
3. Jimmy, drafted 30th.
4. KD, drafted 2nd.
5. CP3, drafted 4th.
6. Giannis, drafted 15th.
7. Gobert, drafted 27th.
8. Montrezl, drafted 27th.
9. Harden, drafted 3rd.
10. DeRozan, drafted 9th.

The truth is development matters just as much as talent. We have young guys. We have high picks (RJ was 3rd overall and 1st going into college). We have breakout late picks (Mitch and IQ). Let's give this group time to grow and compete. See if they have that drive to improve. Jimmy was 25 when he broke out under Thibs. All we need is one of these dudes to breakout. The lotto isn't any more forgiving.

Plus we aren't bargaining our future, we have a lot of picks coming up to hopefully grab the next breakout player and a FO I finally trust at least deep in the draft (Obi over Haliburton was just as headscratching as Frank over Mitchell to me - and y'all know those are the players I wanted). We have 11 picks in the next 2 years. I don't care where in the draft they are, if we miss and can't get an all star on those 11 plus our current 10 players with under 3 years experience on the roster we would've been hopeless in the lotto too.

Not like there's any generational high schoolers coming up right now. Emoni Bates seemed like that guy but not so much right now.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#88 » by Chanel Bomber » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:15 am

BugginOut wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
BugginOut wrote:Even though I agree with you, the point is moot. We weren’t going to find the player in the draft so the best bet is to keep building and hopefully make a trade or hope one of our guys defy the odds and breakout.

Tanking was never going to be the solution

How is tanking not - at the very least - one potential solution? And why were we so obviously not going to find that player in the draft?

The odds of landing a franchise player with a top 5 pick are higher than either RJ, Obi or Quickley ever becoming a superstar imo.

The Knicks only tanked once in the last 20 years (in 2018-19), Just because we were in the lottery doesn't mean the organization was tanking. They were not losing on purpose, they were losing because the men in charge were incompetent.

Hopefully you're right. I do believe IQ and Obi have a higher ceiling than Randle and RJ, so the front office would be smart to prioritize them in the way they assess the roster and build the team. Which is why I would trade Randle now - seeing that the team is going nowhere with him - and let the kids swim on their own. We have the right vets in Rose and Taj.

Between 2015-2020 drafts when we had lottery pick, but apparently not tanking “correctly” only three teams (MIN, PHI, PHO) had more top 5 picks than us 2015 (KP), 2019(RJ). This is who they drafted

PHO: Dragan Bender, Josh Jackson, Deandre Ayton
PHI: Jakil Okafor, Ben Simmons, Markelle Fultz
MIN: KAT, Kris Dunn, Anthony Edwards (even worse record than us)

Most of those years were before the now sh*tty lottery odds.

Tanking doesn’t work, because historically it has not worked. There is only one instance in which a team tanked a season to get a generational player that went on to win with that team and that is the Tim Duncan Spurs.

If you actually do draft a good player you won’t be able to tank long anyway because if that player is actually capable of being generational you will be too good to tank again.

It's a sweeping generalization to say tanking hasn't worked.

First of all, I don't think anybody's ever claimed that it's a bust-proof strategy, or denied that it didn't pan out for some teams.

It's easy to dismiss tanking as one of the potential solutions by bringing up just the nightmare scenarios.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, like Kawhi, Giannis or Jokic, who got drafted outside the top 10 and went on to become top 5 players. And maybe we can debate whether this trend is getting stronger with time, because that appears to be the case, for some unknown reason.

But the top 5 is where you generally find the best talent. It doesn't guarantee that you're gonna hit on the pick. You just have better odds of doing so, especially if your scouting department is solid.

Here are the number of All-Stars per draft slots between 2015 and 2020, since you brought up those years:
Picks 01-05: 10
Picks 05-10:
Picks 10-15: 4
Picks 15-20:
Picks 20-25:
Picks 25-30: 1

The Knicks didn't tank for KP by the way, Carmelo Anthony got injured, and Phil Jackson (who was trying to win games) had built an awful roster.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#89 » by br7knicks » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:11 am

i agree with the OP

last year hurt (in the beginning), but then it did get better.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#90 » by spree8 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:37 am

E-Balla wrote:
BugginOut wrote:
spree8 wrote:

I want to root for a losing team? Hey jacksss, I’ve been rooting for a losing team that was trying to actually win for the last 20+ years. I’m smart enough to know that the quick fix doesn’t work. Dunno how the fuq you think doing the same shyt every year is going to change things.

I grew up watching the early/late 90’s Knicks as a child/teen… I want that again, and know what it takes to get there. The same thing that the majority of the other historic championship teams did… get their superstars via the top of the draft.

No need to call names. I just disagree on your method on how to build a team. We have been in the lotto since 2014, how many years do we need to tank before we build a team together?

We have at least one draft pick from every draft since 2018 (Mitch, RJ, IQ, Obi) playing rotation minutes for us. How many more prospects do we need.

You might get lucky and draft a top 15 player of all time in Steph and Giannis, but that isn’t a realistic way to build a championship and even those players were picked in the late lottery.

This is the funniest part. 5 of the last 7 MVPs were drafted outside the top 5.

The current basketball reference MVP ladder is:

1. Steph, drafted 7th.
2. Jokic, drafted 41st.
3. Jimmy, drafted 30th.
4. KD, drafted 2nd.
5. CP3, drafted 4th.
6. Giannis, drafted 15th.
7. Gobert, drafted 27th.
8. Montrezl, drafted 27th.
9. Harden, drafted 3rd.
10. DeRozan, drafted 9th.

The truth is development matters just as much as talent. We have young guys. We have high picks (RJ was 3rd overall and 1st going into college). We have breakout late picks (Mitch and IQ). Let's give this group time to grow and compete. See if they have that drive to improve. Jimmy was 25 when he broke out under Thibs. All we need is one of these dudes to breakout. The lotto isn't any more forgiving.

Plus we aren't bargaining our future, we have a lot of picks coming up to hopefully grab the next breakout player and a FO I finally trust at least deep in the draft (Obi over Haliburton was just as headscratching as Frank over Mitchell to me - and y'all know those are the players I wanted). We have 11 picks in the next 2 years. I don't care where in the draft they are, if we miss and can't get an all star on those 11 plus our current 10 players with under 3 years experience on the roster we would've been hopeless in the lotto too.

Not like there's any generational high schoolers coming up right now. Emoni Bates seemed like that guy but not so much right now.



Nobody is saying it has to be top 5 every year. There’s deeper drafts than others, but at least being in the top 5 gets you in position to choose whoever you want out of the crop.

That list isn’t compiled of real MVP’s man. Here’s a more legit list:


Jordan- 3rd
Lebron- 1st
Shaq- 1st
Kareem- 1st
Duncan- 1st
Magic- 1st
Bird- 6th
Wilt- 3rd
Russell- 2nd
Hakeem- 1st
Durant- 2nd
Steph- 7th
West- 2nd
Oscar- 1st
Garnett- 5th
DRob- 1st
Wade- 5th
Ewing- 1st
Barkley- 5th
Harden- 3rd
Pippen- 5th
Frazier- 5th
Isiah- 2nd
Cp3- 4th
McHale- 3rd
Kidd- 1st
Payton- 2nd
Ray- 5th
GHill- 3rd
Penny- 3rd
Worthy- 1st
Barry- 4th
Dwight- 1st
Embiid- 3rd
Gasol- 3rd
Walton- 1st
ADavis- 1st
McAdoo- 2nd
Iverson- 1st
Pearl- 2nd
Kyrie- 1st
Wilkins- 6th
Pistol Pete- 3rd
Cousy- 4th
Bing- 2nd
Pettit- 2nd
Arizin- 3rd
Cowens- 4th
Melo- 3rd
Dominique- 3rd
Westbrook- 4th
Lillard- 6th
Bosh- 4th
Webber- 1st
Vince- 5th
Luka- 3rd

————————

Out of the 55-60 above of the greatest of all time, there’s only like 3-4 picked 6th and 1 picked 7th. Some All-Time greats outside of that… but not nearly close to the above.


McGrady- 9th
Dirk- 9th
Pierce- 10th
Kobe- 13th
Mailman- 13th
Drexler- 14th
Giannis- 15th
Kawhi- 15th
Nash- 15th
Stockton- 16th



It really is optimal to get a top pick in the draft to increase your odds of picking who you want (hoping your scouting team did well) even if you wanna do something like Boston did with Tatum and grab your guy a little earlier because your team is sure he’s a star. It’s better to do that than to have your guy taken right before you further down like with Steph.

When teams like the Warriors got their superstar in the top of the draft and drafted the rest of their core, and then used trades/free agency (Iggy/KD), it’s a textbook way to build a team the right way. The Bulls drafted MJ n Pippen. Celtics drafted Bird n McHale. Lakers drafted Magic n Worthy, then Kobe and signed Shaq. Miami drafted Wade n then traded for Shaq who wanted to come play with Wade… drafting a superstar in Wade is also why Lebron n Bosh came. Spurs drafted Duncan n DRob then Manu, Kawhi, n Tony. The list goes on, but a lot of dynasties n title teams are built thru it. Yes there’s other ways, but the top of the draft is clearly the best way to land your 1st superstar.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#91 » by nedleeds » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:39 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
FutureKnicksGM wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:Tanking and getting any of the top 5 picks would have been a better outcome. Instead we got our culos blasted by the Hawks which brought nothing of value. Last year was the perfect season to punt on due to the lack of fans for the majority of the season.

We are a play in team which is a step back from last season.


Which of the top 5 picks are going to be #1 guys on a contender? 3 of them currently shoot worse than rookie Kevin Knox.



Accurate screen name if you can't see the talent those 5 players have.


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Yeah I mean there are like 5 rookies ever who looked like #1 guys in month 2, Shaq, Kareem, LeFlop, Magic and Bird. None of the players on our roster are the #1 or 2 guys on a contender so why wouldn't you take a chance on Jalen Green or whoever.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#92 » by E-Balla » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:09 am

spree8 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
BugginOut wrote:No need to call names. I just disagree on your method on how to build a team. We have been in the lotto since 2014, how many years do we need to tank before we build a team together?

We have at least one draft pick from every draft since 2018 (Mitch, RJ, IQ, Obi) playing rotation minutes for us. How many more prospects do we need.

You might get lucky and draft a top 15 player of all time in Steph and Giannis, but that isn’t a realistic way to build a championship and even those players were picked in the late lottery.

This is the funniest part. 5 of the last 7 MVPs were drafted outside the top 5.

The current basketball reference MVP ladder is:

1. Steph, drafted 7th.
2. Jokic, drafted 41st.
3. Jimmy, drafted 30th.
4. KD, drafted 2nd.
5. CP3, drafted 4th.
6. Giannis, drafted 15th.
7. Gobert, drafted 27th.
8. Montrezl, drafted 27th.
9. Harden, drafted 3rd.
10. DeRozan, drafted 9th.

The truth is development matters just as much as talent. We have young guys. We have high picks (RJ was 3rd overall and 1st going into college). We have breakout late picks (Mitch and IQ). Let's give this group time to grow and compete. See if they have that drive to improve. Jimmy was 25 when he broke out under Thibs. All we need is one of these dudes to breakout. The lotto isn't any more forgiving.

Plus we aren't bargaining our future, we have a lot of picks coming up to hopefully grab the next breakout player and a FO I finally trust at least deep in the draft (Obi over Haliburton was just as headscratching as Frank over Mitchell to me - and y'all know those are the players I wanted). We have 11 picks in the next 2 years. I don't care where in the draft they are, if we miss and can't get an all star on those 11 plus our current 10 players with under 3 years experience on the roster we would've been hopeless in the lotto too.

Not like there's any generational high schoolers coming up right now. Emoni Bates seemed like that guy but not so much right now.



Nobody is saying it has to be top 5 every year. There’s deeper drafts than others, but at least being in the top 5 gets you in position to choose whoever you want out of the crop.

That list isn’t compiled of real MVP’s man. Here’s a more legit list:


Jordan- 3rd
Lebron- 1st
Shaq- 1st
Kareem- 1st
Duncan- 1st
Magic- 1st
Bird- 6th
Wilt- 3rd
Russell- 2nd
Hakeem- 1st
Durant- 2nd
Steph- 7th
West- 2nd
Oscar- 1st
Garnett- 5th
DRob- 1st
Wade- 5th
Ewing- 1st
Barkley- 5th
Harden- 3rd
Pippen- 5th
Frazier- 5th
Isiah- 2nd
Cp3- 4th
McHale- 3rd
Kidd- 1st
Payton- 2nd
Ray- 5th
GHill- 3rd
Penny- 3rd
Worthy- 1st
Barry- 4th
Dwight- 1st
Embiid- 3rd
Gasol- 3rd
Walton- 1st
ADavis- 1st
McAdoo- 2nd
Iverson- 1st
Pearl- 2nd
Kyrie- 1st
Wilkins- 6th
Pistol Pete- 3rd
Cousy- 4th
Bing- 2nd
Pettit- 2nd
Arizin- 3rd
Cowens- 4th
Melo- 3rd
Dominique- 3rd
Westbrook- 4th
Lillard- 6th
Bosh- 4th
Webber- 1st
Vince- 5th
Luka- 3rd

————————

Out of the 55-60 above of the greatest of all time, there’s only like 3-4 picked 6th and 1 picked 7th. Some All-Time greats outside of that… but not nearly close to the above.


McGrady- 9th
Dirk- 9th
Pierce- 10th
Kobe- 13th
Mailman- 13th
Drexler- 14th
Giannis- 15th
Kawhi- 15th
Nash- 15th
Stockton- 16th



It really is optimal to get a top pick in the draft to increase your odds of picking who you want (hoping your scouting team did well) even if you wanna do something like Boston did with Tatum and grab your guy a little earlier because your team is sure he’s a star. It’s better to do that than to have your guy taken right before you further down like with Steph.


It's a different era. Players being taken later are performing better and players going early have been more flat than usual.

Historically when you used to see players for years in college it was a lot easier to sus out who was the real deal. Most of those dudes hit the league finished products. Nowadays everyone hits the league young and completely unprepared for NBA basketball and they develop while in the league.

2012 we had a decently top heavy draft and Draymond and Khris Middleton are still 2 of the top 5 players despite being 2nd round picks. Both guys took a while to develop with Middleton making his first all star at 27 and Draymond at 25.

2013 had only 2 of the top 8 players in the draft go top 10 with the rest of the players coming in the late 20s or the mid first round. Giannis took 4 years to be an all star, CJ was trash for 2 years before starting finally at 24, Gobert was 24 before he averaged a double double and 27 before he was an all star, and Dipo didn't become an all star until he was 25 and on his 2nd contract.

2014 only Embiid was a hit in the top 5, Randle is top 10 and an all star. Both guys took a while to develop with Embiid literally sitting out 2 years and Randle not becoming an All Star until the end of his 2nd contract. Lavine also only became an all star at 25 on his 2nd contract.

2015 is a conventional draft where the best player isn't a top pick (Booker) but the other All Stars in the draft are early picks.

2016 had a top 3 that all became all stars. Simmons was an All Star young, it took both JB and Ingram until contract 2 to become all stars. Under that the best players are all picked later and took a while to develop. Sabonis, Siakam, and Brogdon all developed at the very end of their rookie deals.

I can keep going but the point is that with 21 young players in a 5 year period we should be able to find one star. It's on us whether we keep them or ship them out before they have a chance to develop.

When teams like the Warriors got their superstar in the top of the draft and drafted the rest of their core, and then used trades/free agency (Iggy/KD), it’s a textbook way to build a team the right way. The Bulls drafted MJ n Pippen. Celtics drafted Bird n McHale. Lakers drafted Magic n Worthy, then Kobe and signed Shaq. Miami drafted Wade n then traded for Shaq who wanted to come play with Wade… drafting a superstar in Wade is also why Lebron n Bosh came. Spurs drafted Duncan n DRob then Manu, Kawhi, n Tony. The list goes on, but a lot of dynasties n title teams are built thru it. Yes there’s other ways, but the top of the draft is clearly the best way to land your 1st superstar.

You're naming a lot of old teams from before the current lottery odds, before one and done, or anything close to this era. The draft has never been as unreliable as it currently is.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#93 » by Besart19 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:59 am

You didnt like the idea of adding Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony and a veteran SG like Derozan or Beal
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#94 » by spree8 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:03 am

E-Balla wrote:
spree8 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:This is the funniest part. 5 of the last 7 MVPs were drafted outside the top 5.

The current basketball reference MVP ladder is:

1. Steph, drafted 7th.
2. Jokic, drafted 41st.
3. Jimmy, drafted 30th.
4. KD, drafted 2nd.
5. CP3, drafted 4th.
6. Giannis, drafted 15th.
7. Gobert, drafted 27th.
8. Montrezl, drafted 27th.
9. Harden, drafted 3rd.
10. DeRozan, drafted 9th.

The truth is development matters just as much as talent. We have young guys. We have high picks (RJ was 3rd overall and 1st going into college). We have breakout late picks (Mitch and IQ). Let's give this group time to grow and compete. See if they have that drive to improve. Jimmy was 25 when he broke out under Thibs. All we need is one of these dudes to breakout. The lotto isn't any more forgiving.

Plus we aren't bargaining our future, we have a lot of picks coming up to hopefully grab the next breakout player and a FO I finally trust at least deep in the draft (Obi over Haliburton was just as headscratching as Frank over Mitchell to me - and y'all know those are the players I wanted). We have 11 picks in the next 2 years. I don't care where in the draft they are, if we miss and can't get an all star on those 11 plus our current 10 players with under 3 years experience on the roster we would've been hopeless in the lotto too.

Not like there's any generational high schoolers coming up right now. Emoni Bates seemed like that guy but not so much right now.



Nobody is saying it has to be top 5 every year. There’s deeper drafts than others, but at least being in the top 5 gets you in position to choose whoever you want out of the crop.

That list isn’t compiled of real MVP’s man. Here’s a more legit list:


Jordan- 3rd
Lebron- 1st
Shaq- 1st
Kareem- 1st
Duncan- 1st
Magic- 1st
Bird- 6th
Wilt- 3rd
Russell- 2nd
Hakeem- 1st
Durant- 2nd
Steph- 7th
West- 2nd
Oscar- 1st
Garnett- 5th
DRob- 1st
Wade- 5th
Ewing- 1st
Barkley- 5th
Harden- 3rd
Pippen- 5th
Frazier- 5th
Isiah- 2nd
Cp3- 4th
McHale- 3rd
Kidd- 1st
Payton- 2nd
Ray- 5th
GHill- 3rd
Penny- 3rd
Worthy- 1st
Barry- 4th
Dwight- 1st
Embiid- 3rd
Gasol- 3rd
Walton- 1st
ADavis- 1st
McAdoo- 2nd
Iverson- 1st
Pearl- 2nd
Kyrie- 1st
Wilkins- 6th
Pistol Pete- 3rd
Cousy- 4th
Bing- 2nd
Pettit- 2nd
Arizin- 3rd
Cowens- 4th
Melo- 3rd
Dominique- 3rd
Westbrook- 4th
Lillard- 6th
Bosh- 4th
Webber- 1st
Vince- 5th
Luka- 3rd

————————

Out of the 55-60 above of the greatest of all time, there’s only like 3-4 picked 6th and 1 picked 7th. Some All-Time greats outside of that… but not nearly close to the above.


McGrady- 9th
Dirk- 9th
Pierce- 10th
Kobe- 13th
Mailman- 13th
Drexler- 14th
Giannis- 15th
Kawhi- 15th
Nash- 15th
Stockton- 16th



It really is optimal to get a top pick in the draft to increase your odds of picking who you want (hoping your scouting team did well) even if you wanna do something like Boston did with Tatum and grab your guy a little earlier because your team is sure he’s a star. It’s better to do that than to have your guy taken right before you further down like with Steph.


It's a different era. Players being taken later are performing better and players going early have been more flat than usual.

Historically when you used to see players for years in college it was a lot easier to sus out who was the real deal. Most of those dudes hit the league finished products. Nowadays everyone hits the league young and completely unprepared for NBA basketball and they develop while in the league.

2012 we had a decently top heavy draft and Draymond and Khris Middleton are still 2 of the top 5 players despite being 2nd round picks. Both guys took a while to develop with Middleton making his first all star at 27 and Draymond at 25.

2013 had only 2 of the top 8 players in the draft go top 10 with the rest of the players coming in the late 20s or the mid first round. Giannis took 4 years to be an all star, CJ was trash for 2 years before starting finally at 24, Gobert was 24 before he averaged a double double and 27 before he was an all star, and Dipo didn't become an all star until he was 25 and on his 2nd contract.

2014 only Embiid was a hit in the top 5, Randle is top 10 and an all star. Both guys took a while to develop with Embiid literally sitting out 2 years and Randle not becoming an All Star until the end of his 2nd contract. Lavine also only became an all star at 25 on his 2nd contract.

2015 is a conventional draft where the best player isn't a top pick (Booker) but the other All Stars in the draft are early picks.

2016 had a top 3 that all became all stars. Simmons was an All Star young, it took both JB and Ingram until contract 2 to become all stars. Under that the best players are all picked later and took a while to develop. Sabonis, Siakam, and Brogdon all developed at the very end of their rookie deals.

I can keep going but the point is that with 21 young players in a 5 year period we should be able to find one star. It's on us whether we keep them or ship them out before they have a chance to develop.

When teams like the Warriors got their superstar in the top of the draft and drafted the rest of their core, and then used trades/free agency (Iggy/KD), it’s a textbook way to build a team the right way. The Bulls drafted MJ n Pippen. Celtics drafted Bird n McHale. Lakers drafted Magic n Worthy, then Kobe and signed Shaq. Miami drafted Wade n then traded for Shaq who wanted to come play with Wade… drafting a superstar in Wade is also why Lebron n Bosh came. Spurs drafted Duncan n DRob then Manu, Kawhi, n Tony. The list goes on, but a lot of dynasties n title teams are built thru it. Yes there’s other ways, but the top of the draft is clearly the best way to land your 1st superstar.

You're naming a lot of old teams from before the current lottery odds, before one and done, or anything close to this era. The draft has never been as unreliable as it currently is.



This has been going on since we traded Ewing… one n done, new lotto odds, etc are no excuse for 20+ years of never truly trying this route.

I know times have changed n all, so current day it may be a bit different, but it’s still a reliable method. We just somehow always seem to fuq it up and end up right outside where we should’ve been by not fully committing to a rebuild.


02’ we pass on Amare and trade the pick for McDyess.

We were garbage in 03’… with a historic class, I remember being heated for still not embracing the rebuild n going full throttle to the top of the lotto… instead we ended up just outside of it and drafted Mike Sweetney.

05’ we traded our soul for Marbury the previous year and we ended up still being hot garbage because we had nothing outside of him… genius plan. We land the 8th pick… just 4 spots away from Cp3.

Same in 08’ with Steph… hiring a coach like D’Antoni at that point was premature. The wins he got us cost us a top player of all time.

15’ we lost a coin flip to Minny who got Towns… the 2 out of 3 meaningless wins we just had to get at the very end of the season instead of pulling the plug and securing that #1 spot… oh joy.

20’ fired a coach who was a perfect tank commander and promoted his assistant who ended up having twice the win record… lost a chance at LaMelo or Edwards there (looking at the records of the teams who landed them).

21’ We hire Thibs during a year we should’ve kept rebuilding.. surely that cost us a top pick in this draft. I’d say that’s more important than securing a coach like Thibs who is far from perfect.


Can’t forget all the years we traded our picks for trash only for them to land at the top of the lotto and get other teams perennial All-Stars and DPOY’s.

We’ve been so close to landing what we needed so many times, yet bad luck or whatever you wanna call it, has reared its ugly head and ruined it.


Regarding listing old teams that have won titles by getting their first superstar via the draft….

Warriors- drafted Steph 7th, then Klay n Dray

Cavs- drafted Kyrie #1, signed Lebron who they drafted initially @ #1, and traded their #1 pick for the 3rd star

Spurs- drafted Duncan #1, Kawhi 15th, DRob #1

Heat- drafted Wade #5, without him, Shaq, Lebron, and Bosh would’ve never came.


Mavs, Lakers, and Celtics all drafted Dirk (9th-foreign players weren’t looked at the same), Kobe (13th- high school), and Pierce (10th-projected higher) outside of the top of the lotto, but the point is that these franchises got their superstars in the draft (still near the top, and could’ve went higher if not for the times/era) and the rest followed.

The teams listed above are like 95% of the championship teams in the last 20 years.

It’s rare you get a superstar to come to an empty team. Lebron to LA doesn’t happen every day. The draft is far more likely to get you what you need.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#95 » by bearadonisdna » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:54 am

Wow Ricky Rubio is UFA next year relax.
We got picks so we gotta use picks to get off contracts we don’t like .

Real tanking takes 4 years ball park .
Look at Cleveland . Yes they got Mobley . Cool .
Sexton is out the door and in IR.
Garland isn’t even better than Rubio .
Sometimes tanking can destroy your current players .

You think Mitch , IQ, obi, RJ gonna survive a tank? They will likely get exposed or something .
Last years winning set a standard that we are pissed about not reaching .
Without that standard you are still trying to set the bar.


Right now this .500 version of the knicks is below the standard but ABOVE the norm for what NYK fans have endured. Looking at own division they gifting us competitiveness , Simmons /kyrie etc. Would it be nice to capitalize ? Yes .

Looks around . Coach ? Not yet huh? FO? Remains to be seen .

Also disclaimer : was their anybody in here clamoring for the top free agents ? Demar ? Conley ? Lowry? No not really !
If that’s the facts Admittedly we didn’t expect a championship year , we expected a competitive year.

The curse of Dolan . We will cross that bridge when we get it to it. He has nothing to do with this team being .500.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#96 » by Richard4444 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:23 pm

Besart19 wrote:You didnt like the idea of adding Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony and a veteran SG like Derozan or Beal


CP3 - It was not even on the table. He would rather stay in Phoenix, a top5 team in the league. Besides, it's a really risky deal getting a 36-year player in a 120/4 deal. You need to be sure you are a Top contender.

Melo - First, we don't need a PF. We already have Randle and Obi. His offense is amazing but his defense is a great concern. Besides, he is not reliable due to his age. He would be a great option if we did not have cap space and needed a PF.

Rozan - He is still not too old and he always was a healthy athlete. He looks great around shooters like Lonzo, Lavine, and Vuc. He would not be so good around unreliable shooters like RJ and Randle. But I would have liked the signing.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#97 » by FrozenEnvelope » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:28 pm

Tanking is a flawed strategy and it doesn't guarantee anything unless it's for someone like LeBron or Shaq. We could have tanked last season, continued to be a laughing stock and ended up with another Frank easily.

So I wouldn't trade last season for anything. It was exactly what this franchise needed. I'm beyond sick of watching 20 win teams and pinning your hopes on ping pong balls and I hope to not go through that for a long time.
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#98 » by god shammgod » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:43 pm

aint nobody reading all that
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#99 » by Gravy » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:44 pm

All this talk about how great the Bulls are this year with Derozan. But NOBODY brings up that we could have just.. drafted Derozan! All the great players we had a chance to draft dont count for some reason. I mean, if we didnt trade our 2014 pick we could have had Zach Lavine too lol
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Re: Let’s be honest overachieving last year hurt more then it helped 

Post#100 » by Richard4444 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:48 pm

spree8 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
spree8 wrote:

Nobody is saying it has to be top 5 every year. There’s deeper drafts than others, but at least being in the top 5 gets you in position to choose whoever you want out of the crop.

That list isn’t compiled of real MVP’s man. Here’s a more legit list:


Jordan- 3rd
Lebron- 1st
Shaq- 1st
Kareem- 1st
Duncan- 1st
Magic- 1st
Bird- 6th
Wilt- 3rd
Russell- 2nd
Hakeem- 1st
Durant- 2nd
Steph- 7th
West- 2nd
Oscar- 1st
Garnett- 5th
DRob- 1st
Wade- 5th
Ewing- 1st
Barkley- 5th
Harden- 3rd
Pippen- 5th
Frazier- 5th
Isiah- 2nd
Cp3- 4th
McHale- 3rd
Kidd- 1st
Payton- 2nd
Ray- 5th
GHill- 3rd
Penny- 3rd
Worthy- 1st
Barry- 4th
Dwight- 1st
Embiid- 3rd
Gasol- 3rd
Walton- 1st
ADavis- 1st
McAdoo- 2nd
Iverson- 1st
Pearl- 2nd
Kyrie- 1st
Wilkins- 6th
Pistol Pete- 3rd
Cousy- 4th
Bing- 2nd
Pettit- 2nd
Arizin- 3rd
Cowens- 4th
Melo- 3rd
Dominique- 3rd
Westbrook- 4th
Lillard- 6th
Bosh- 4th
Webber- 1st
Vince- 5th
Luka- 3rd

————————

Out of the 55-60 above of the greatest of all time, there’s only like 3-4 picked 6th and 1 picked 7th. Some All-Time greats outside of that… but not nearly close to the above.


McGrady- 9th
Dirk- 9th
Pierce- 10th
Kobe- 13th
Mailman- 13th
Drexler- 14th
Giannis- 15th
Kawhi- 15th
Nash- 15th
Stockton- 16th



It really is optimal to get a top pick in the draft to increase your odds of picking who you want (hoping your scouting team did well) even if you wanna do something like Boston did with Tatum and grab your guy a little earlier because your team is sure he’s a star. It’s better to do that than to have your guy taken right before you further down like with Steph.


It's a different era. Players being taken later are performing better and players going early have been more flat than usual.

Historically when you used to see players for years in college it was a lot easier to sus out who was the real deal. Most of those dudes hit the league finished products. Nowadays everyone hits the league young and completely unprepared for NBA basketball and they develop while in the league.

2012 we had a decently top heavy draft and Draymond and Khris Middleton are still 2 of the top 5 players despite being 2nd round picks. Both guys took a while to develop with Middleton making his first all star at 27 and Draymond at 25.

2013 had only 2 of the top 8 players in the draft go top 10 with the rest of the players coming in the late 20s or the mid first round. Giannis took 4 years to be an all star, CJ was trash for 2 years before starting finally at 24, Gobert was 24 before he averaged a double double and 27 before he was an all star, and Dipo didn't become an all star until he was 25 and on his 2nd contract.

2014 only Embiid was a hit in the top 5, Randle is top 10 and an all star. Both guys took a while to develop with Embiid literally sitting out 2 years and Randle not becoming an All Star until the end of his 2nd contract. Lavine also only became an all star at 25 on his 2nd contract.

2015 is a conventional draft where the best player isn't a top pick (Booker) but the other All Stars in the draft are early picks.

2016 had a top 3 that all became all stars. Simmons was an All Star young, it took both JB and Ingram until contract 2 to become all stars. Under that the best players are all picked later and took a while to develop. Sabonis, Siakam, and Brogdon all developed at the very end of their rookie deals.

I can keep going but the point is that with 21 young players in a 5 year period we should be able to find one star. It's on us whether we keep them or ship them out before they have a chance to develop.

When teams like the Warriors got their superstar in the top of the draft and drafted the rest of their core, and then used trades/free agency (Iggy/KD), it’s a textbook way to build a team the right way. The Bulls drafted MJ n Pippen. Celtics drafted Bird n McHale. Lakers drafted Magic n Worthy, then Kobe and signed Shaq. Miami drafted Wade n then traded for Shaq who wanted to come play with Wade… drafting a superstar in Wade is also why Lebron n Bosh came. Spurs drafted Duncan n DRob then Manu, Kawhi, n Tony. The list goes on, but a lot of dynasties n title teams are built thru it. Yes there’s other ways, but the top of the draft is clearly the best way to land your 1st superstar.

You're naming a lot of old teams from before the current lottery odds, before one and done, or anything close to this era. The draft has never been as unreliable as it currently is.



This has been going on since we traded Ewing… one n done, new lotto odds, etc are no excuse for 20+ years of never truly trying this route.

I know times have changed n all, so current day it may be a bit different, but it’s still a reliable method. We just somehow always seem to fuq it up and end up right outside where we should’ve been by not fully committing to a rebuild.


02’ we pass on Amare and trade the pick for McDyess.

We were garbage in 03’… with a historic class, I remember being heated for still not embracing the rebuild n going full throttle to the top of the lotto… instead we ended up just outside of it and drafted Mike Sweetney.

05’ we traded our soul for Marbury the previous year and we ended up still being hot garbage because we had nothing outside of him… genius plan. We land the 8th pick… just 4 spots away from Cp3.

Same in 08’ with Steph… hiring a coach like D’Antoni at that point was premature. The wins he got us cost us a top player of all time.

15’ we lost a coin flip to Minny who got Towns… the 2 out of 3 meaningless wins we just had to get at the very end of the season instead of pulling the plug and securing that #1 spot… oh joy.

20’ fired a coach who was a perfect tank commander and promoted his assistant who ended up having twice the win record… lost a chance at LaMelo or Edwards there (looking at the records of the teams who landed them).

21’ We hire Thibs during a year we should’ve kept rebuilding.. surely that cost us a top pick in this draft. I’d say that’s more important than securing a coach like Thibs who is far from perfect.


Can’t forget all the years we traded our picks for trash only for them to land at the top of the lotto and get other teams perennial All-Stars and DPOY’s.

We’ve been so close to landing what we needed so many times, yet bad luck or whatever you wanna call it, has reared its ugly head and ruined it.


Regarding listing old teams that have won titles by getting their first superstar via the draft….

Warriors- drafted Steph 7th, then Klay n Dray

Cavs- drafted Kyrie #1, signed Lebron who they drafted initially @ #1, and traded their #1 pick for the 3rd star

Spurs- drafted Duncan #1, Kawhi 15th, DRob #1

Heat- drafted Wade #5, without him, Shaq, Lebron, and Bosh would’ve never came.


Mavs, Lakers, and Celtics all drafted Dirk (9th-foreign players weren’t looked at the same), Kobe (13th- high school), and Pierce (10th-projected higher) outside of the top of the lotto, but the point is that these franchises got their superstars in the draft (still near the top, and could’ve went higher if not for the times/era) and the rest followed.

The teams listed above are like 95% of the championship teams in the last 20 years.

It’s rare you get a superstar to come to an empty team. Lebron to LA doesn’t happen every day. The draft is far more likely to get you what you need.


1) We cannot compare make too much comparison with the past. Today, there is much more player movement. Nets, Clippers, and Lakers landed superstars without having stars in their rosters. We can trade for stars and even superstars like Raptors/Kawhi and Nets/Harden did.

2) I did not want Thibs last year because I want one more year of slow rebuilding. However, he came and did a really good job. Now we can not throw away the job done and start from scratch firing Thibs and trading Randle and the vets. Besides, we would have to sell a lot of players to compete for the bottom spots with bad teams like Houston, Pelicans, Detroit, Magic, and San Antonio. The worse scenario is to continue to draft 8th/9th picks while being a laughingstock for Free Agents and a terrible team to watch.

3) Do not romanticize the draft, please. It's a cruel business. You remembered us losing Towns, LaMello, and Curry because of a coin toss. That is it. We bet the destiny of your franchise first in luck and second in a teenager. Small market teams do not have a choice, they have to rely on the draft. A New York City franchise can attract nice free agents if their front office does a good job.

4) Teams chooses to tank when their best players are injured NY Melo to get KP, NY KP to get RJ, GSW - Klay/Curry to get Wiseman, Raptors Siakam/Lowry to get Barnes, SAS- Robinson to get Duncan, or when they hit a breaking point and there are no routes to improve like Charlotte, Detroit, Magic and Houston recently did it. We can get better because our roster is young and we have plenty of assets.

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