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The real problem with this team

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bleedblue3303
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The real problem with this team 

Post#1 » by bleedblue3303 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:17 pm

I feel like there are quiet a few problems with everyone's analysis. The problem isn't as much whether Randle is good or selfish or plays too much Iso etc. etc.

I would ask this question:
Name a team since the Tim Duncan spurs that won a championship with PF as the best player? Lebron and Durant are more guards that play that position at times so please don't use that as the example. To win in the NBA you need amazing guard and wing play.

The team is perfect for a disgruntled wing and guard to join and take over. Randle would move to the 2nd or 3rd option. I have to believe this front office knows something we don't. You are kidding yourself if you think Leon and Wes are not looped in to the desired movement of star players.

The first step was changing the culture, which wasn't as much about winning or losing as it was staying off the back page of the post and no longer being considered a joke of a franchise by the league. This was achieved last year.

This year is about bringing in contracts that are large enough and moveable to match with our bevy of draft pics for a disgruntled star. This has also been achieved. It's about waiting for the trade deadline or upcoming off season. If I was a gambling man I would bet the farm this team will look very different this time next year.

Its not like other years where we are looking for a savior to fix a crumbling franchise. We are a stable team now figuring out who will come to be its best player on the court.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#2 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:30 pm

bleedblue3303 wrote:

The team is perfect for a disgruntled wing and guard to join and take over. Randle would move to the 2nd or 3rd option. I have to believe this front office knows something we don't. You are kidding yourself if you think Leon and Wes are not looped in to the desired movement of star players.



Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.


Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#3 » by bleedblue3303 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:47 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
bleedblue3303 wrote:

The team is perfect for a disgruntled wing and guard to join and take over. Randle would move to the 2nd or 3rd option. I have to believe this front office knows something we don't. You are kidding yourself if you think Leon and Wes are not looped in to the desired movement of star players.



Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.


Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.



I would ask you. Outside of Rose, who on this team is in a position to command the respect of Randle to make him listen to them? I can promise you if Dame was here Randle would accept is role. OR we would just ship him out at that point.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#4 » by bleedblue3303 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:50 pm

I also wanted to add to my question about PF winning. A great example is Anthony Davis. As great as Anthony Davis is, (Randle will never be Davis) He needed a Lebron to get the ring. Without star guards or wings this team will not be more than it is.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#5 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:55 pm

bleedblue3303 wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
bleedblue3303 wrote:

The team is perfect for a disgruntled wing and guard to join and take over. Randle would move to the 2nd or 3rd option. I have to believe this front office knows something we don't. You are kidding yourself if you think Leon and Wes are not looped in to the desired movement of star players.



Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.


Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.



I would ask you. Outside of Rose, who on this team is in a position to command the respect of Randle to make him listen to them? I can promise you if Dame was here Randle would accept is role. OR we would just ship him out at that point.


Why does anyone need to command Randle's respect? This is the problem with the organization, we're catering to him like he's LeBron James, when in reality he'd be a really nice 6th man for most good teams. The Celtics had Marcus Smart of all people call out Jaylen and Jayson, two guys we'd trade Randle for + picks in a heartbeat, they've been to several ECF, and we can't have anyone call out Randle?


We don't have Lillard, and if we did I'd want Randle traded just the same to create caproom so we could get a better player here, because a LIllard/Randle team is going nowhere just the same as a Lillard, McCollum team is going nowhere.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#6 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:01 pm

bleedblue3303 wrote:I also wanted to add to my question about PF winning. A great example is Anthony Davis. As great as Anthony Davis is, (Randle will never be Davis) He needed a Lebron to get the ring. Without star guards or wings this team will not be more than it is.



Excluding talent, the difference between Randle and AD is playstyle, AD is a finisher and has been most of his career. The bulk of his offense comes off someone else creating the look for him, he can post up & iso but that's not the heart of his offense. Randle is the exact opposite of that, you can't expect him to play with another very ball dominant player and have the same results because that's not really his game. He doesn't move well off the ball, he's not going to finish plays like that because he's not great at attacking the rim. AD can play off a dominant ball handler, it remains to be seen if Randle can do that, but I'd seriously doubt it.

If you brought in a ball dominant wing player you'd see the same issue happening that you do now with Kemba and Randle, they can't get going together because neither is really an off ball player.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#7 » by DaGawd » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:06 pm

Giannis is a pf.. just saying
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#8 » by Nazrmohamed » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:27 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
bleedblue3303 wrote:

The team is perfect for a disgruntled wing and guard to join and take over. Randle would move to the 2nd or 3rd option. I have to believe this front office knows something we don't. You are kidding yourself if you think Leon and Wes are not looped in to the desired movement of star players.



Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.


Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.



I hear this alot but the moment you get one and I mean a true alpha people step in line. I heard the same arguments about Melo until it was clear he wasn't ever gonna be that guy and he then stepped in line. Problem with the Knicks historically is "there can be only one" mindset. I watch teams with literally 3 alphas who figure it out, sometimes they don't but still the talent is overwhelming.

But with the Knicks it's
-Bernard King and the next best guy is really another teams 3rd or 4th option
-Patrick and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth option
-Steph and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option
-Melo and you're starting to get it
-Julius and you get it.

And then of course there's always argument as to whether the guys I mentioned were even 1st place options. The day we trade for a superstar we'll dump Julius to get him and then......the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option and we're always sooooo confused as to why this guy can't win and start devaluing that guy. Now I'll be the 1st to say Julius isn't a primary option but I don't think hes selfish. I think Thibodeau is an enabler and a simplistic offensive coach. Even if he woke up tomorrow and said 'Julius we're gonna run this team through Rose" let's just say. Then all of a sudden he'd overwork Rose and have Julius act as some 3rd or 4rth option. Even in the 90s to win you had to have 2 guys acting in tandem. Nowadays you need 3.

So idkwtf we bout to do
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#9 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:31 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
bleedblue3303 wrote:I also wanted to add to my question about PF winning. A great example is Anthony Davis. As great as Anthony Davis is, (Randle will never be Davis) He needed a Lebron to get the ring. Without star guards or wings this team will not be more than it is.



Excluding talent, the difference between Randle and AD is playstyle, AD is a finisher and has been most of his career. The bulk of his offense comes off someone else creating the look for him, he can post up & iso but that's not the heart of his offense. Randle is the exact opposite of that, you can't expect him to play with another very ball dominant player and have the same results because that's not really his game. He doesn't move well off the ball, he's not going to finish plays like that because he's not great at attacking the rim. AD can play off a dominant ball handler, it remains to be seen if Randle can do that, but I'd seriously doubt it.

If you brought in a ball dominant wing player you'd see the same issue happening that you do now with Kemba and Randle, they can't get going together because neither is really an off ball player.
Are we forgetting his role/play in New Orleans? He was very much deferential and not ball dominant. He is in year 3 as a number 1 guy not year 8. He had to figure out how to be a 1 the first year was comfortable the second and now has to figure out how.to be the 1 amidat other talents.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#10 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:33 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
bleedblue3303 wrote:

The team is perfect for a disgruntled wing and guard to join and take over. Randle would move to the 2nd or 3rd option. I have to believe this front office knows something we don't. You are kidding yourself if you think Leon and Wes are not looped in to the desired movement of star players.



Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.


Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.



I hear this alot but the moment you get one and I mean a true alpha people step in line. I heard the same arguments about Melo until it was clear he wasn't ever gonna be that guy and he then stepped in line. Problem with the Knicks historically is "there can be only one" mindset. I watch teams with literally 3 alphas who figure it out, sometimes they don't but still the talent is overwhelming.

But with the Knicks it's
-Bernard King and the next best guy is really another teams 3rd or 4th option
-Patrick and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth option
-Steph and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option
-Melo and you're starting to get it
-Julius and you get it.

And then of course there's always argument as to whether the guys I mentioned were even 1st place options. The day we trade for a superstar we'll dump Julius to get him and then......the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option and we're always sooooo confused as to why this guy can't win and start devaluing that guy. Now I'll be the 1st to say Julius isn't a primary option but I don't think hes selfish. I think Thibodeau is an enabler and a simplistic offensive coach. Even if he woke up tomorrow and said 'Julius we're gonna run this team through Rose" let's just say. Then all of a sudden he'd overwork Rose and have Julius act as some 3rd or 4rth option. Even in the 90s to win you had to have 2 guys acting in tandem. Nowadays you need 3.

So idkwtf we bout to do
Bless you. It isn't difficult to see where the problem lies. The minute Woodson left rye Knicksnoffence became Thibsian.

If Randle brings up the ball go 4 out 1 in ... let Randle DHO with a wing into a side pick and roll. Have Kemba in the weakside corner and the other wing set a pindown for him to come up to the wing if the Randle-wing DHO creates nothing we kick to Kemba for a 1-5 pnr.

Bodies move and the floor is spaced.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#11 » by Capn'O » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:52 pm

Very true that Woodson doesn't get his due. Everyone has overachieved with him.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#12 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:58 pm

Capn'O wrote:Very true that Woodson doesn't get his due. Everyone has overachieved with him.
And his switching defence is now league blue print. Phil was wrong to fire him.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#13 » by BKlutch » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:05 pm

In 1970 and 1973, the Knicks point guard was arguably their #1 player.
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Last season: From 21 to 41 wins!
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#14 » by prophet_of_rage » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:39 pm

BKlutch wrote:In 1970 and 1973, the Knicks point guard was arguably their #1 player.
Only nostalgically. It was the Captain's team then. Clyde just stuck around NY longer.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#15 » by whocares1 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:32 pm

DaGawd wrote:Giannis is a pf.. just saying


No lol. Randle is a 4 ..like every minute of his on court play is usually at the 4 while Giannis is versatile can be used at the 3 or 5 which he was doing in the Finals. It’s just not the same, investing on a 4 in todays nba never made sense.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#16 » by TBri1974 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:35 pm

I disagree that you can say Durant and Lebron are not PFs. The position has evolved. You can say we need a more athletic PF, but don't let Randle's size fool you, he's large and athletic. You could clearly argue that Giannis was the best player on his team last year, Durant one of the two best on this GSW teams, Siakim when the Raptors won, Lebron, etc. Now I do agree we need a wing who can defend, but if you look at the first few games of the season when we looked like world beaters, I think its primarily ball movement and defense that are hurting this team, not strictly personnel. The question is can you get that ball movement and defense from the players we currently have? I don't have an answer for that, but after last year's surprise good vibes season, this year has been a tough letdown so far...
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#17 » by DaGawd » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:36 pm

whocares1 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Giannis is a pf.. just saying


No lol. Randle is a 4 ..like every minute of his on court play is usually at the 4 while Giannis is versatile can be used at the 3 or 5 which he was doing in the Finals. It’s just not the same, investing on a 4 in todays nba never made sense.

My point was it really doesn’t matter what position your best player is.. they just have to be a generational talent.. which we don’t have one
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#18 » by Da_Mane_Man » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:53 pm

Should we go get John Wall?




:lol:
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#19 » by Galvationknicks » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:20 am

No Noel we lose this game
Im still hurting from the Ewing trade. Worst trade in Knick history!!!
Knicks +37 wins Book it for 2009 season. Just so wrong on this :(
Knicks +42 wins Book it for 2010 season.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#20 » by Galvationknicks » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:21 am

Da_Mane_Man wrote:Should we go get John Wall?




:lol:

Now we can stockpile old pgs like we did with pfs years ago
Im still hurting from the Ewing trade. Worst trade in Knick history!!!
Knicks +37 wins Book it for 2009 season. Just so wrong on this :(
Knicks +42 wins Book it for 2010 season.

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