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The real problem with this team

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Are We Ther Yet
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#41 » by Are We Ther Yet » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:24 am

GONYK wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
You're all over the place, he wasn't going to be expensive piece considering his market was basically just us. You tried to use his numbers in New Orleans like they meant anything, with Davis missing 26 games and the team being awful with Randle starting, but Julius got his numbers, sound familiar?

Now it's well they got Zion, and he was going to be expensive. They would have retained him if he were as good as you think but he's just not that good, but keep drinking the kool aid.
I'm answering why they let him go. But he played off the ball in NO and put up numbers. It wasn't a struggle to play him off the ball. He wasnt initiating offence.

Julius can play off the ball if you give him someone to control the offence. It's wildly inaccurate to say he can't play off the ball effectively.

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We have to find ways to make him a finisher again and limit his playmaking to short-roll situations.


We have to find a way to trade him to a team that doesn't mind spending 28mil on a bench player. Maybe we can get some heavily protected 2nd Rd picks in 2024 for him. :lol: He's a bum who feasted on a weak team in a contract year. He disappeared as soon as he got paid and his body language is that if a bum.

Randle for Batum plus picks was the battle cry. Let's bring it back! He is empty stats and thinks he's LeBron. Backup 5 is his best role in this league.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#42 » by Nazrmohamed » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:01 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.


Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.



I hear this alot but the moment you get one and I mean a true alpha people step in line. I heard the same arguments about Melo until it was clear he wasn't ever gonna be that guy and he then stepped in line. Problem with the Knicks historically is "there can be only one" mindset. I watch teams with literally 3 alphas who figure it out, sometimes they don't but still the talent is overwhelming.

But with the Knicks it's
-Bernard King and the next best guy is really another teams 3rd or 4th option
-Patrick and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth option
-Steph and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option
-Melo and you're starting to get it
-Julius and you get it.

And then of course there's always argument as to whether the guys I mentioned were even 1st place options. The day we trade for a superstar we'll dump Julius to get him and then......the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option and we're always sooooo confused as to why this guy can't win and start devaluing that guy. Now I'll be the 1st to say Julius isn't a primary option but I don't think hes selfish. I think Thibodeau is an enabler and a simplistic offensive coach. Even if he woke up tomorrow and said 'Julius we're gonna run this team through Rose" let's just say. Then all of a sudden he'd overwork Rose and have Julius act as some 3rd or 4rth option. Even in the 90s to win you had to have 2 guys acting in tandem. Nowadays you need 3.

So idkwtf we bout to do



It's not really a mindset of who is alpha and who is not, in Randle's case it's just that his game is extremely ball dominant. It's really similar to Russell Westbrook but from the PF spot, he uses a ton of possessions per game. You can't have a number 2 that needs 70+ touches per game to be semi effective, it's not like Randle is some efficiency monster, he absolutely needs all those touches to put up his numbers because he has never shown that he can play off ball and remain effective. You really need to understand how many times he touches the ball and how many possessions go through him, if you removed 20-30 of those per game and dropped him down into the 50 touches per game range he's not going to post numbers consistent with a number 2 because his current numbers are coming with superstar level touches.

It's incredibly hard to build around iso heavy players, nevermind iso heavy ball dominant guys that aren't even great scorers. He would not be starting for any serious contender, it's too hard to put people around him and run a quality offense because so many of the possessions go to him.


Not really. He can have 20 touches for all I care it's more about how he recieves his touches which you could still be right about just saying it ain't about how many times he's looking to score.

But since you brought him up let's just say for arguments sake you got a guy like Russell and played him with Julius. You just said it yourself Russell will dominate the ball and basically create the stage in which Julius can score with the ball.
1-an assisted bucket
2- putback
See what I'm saying? There would be no room for Randle to isolate. He'll get the ball when Russel decides. Now quick, think of someone not names Westbrook cuz the **** version is now burned in your brain. The same would happen with Lillard, with just about all of the top tier PGs and most top tier wings. Randle would become to Lillard what RJ is to him, except obvious both would be better players. Lillard to Randle and Randle to RJ.

I think we overthink it. Get the star and then guess what? You could still trade Randle after the fact, isn't that what you're endorsing? Trading Randle. Get the star, see how they mesh. If not it's not like Randle hasn't established himself as talented.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#43 » by Jay10 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:31 am

The problem is there is no defense at the point of attack when it comes to slowing down the opposing team's backcourt.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#44 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:37 am

I'm not an expert, but I believe the main issue with the team is that they suck
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#45 » by Richard4444 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:07 am

bleedblue3303 wrote:I also wanted to add to my question about PF winning. A great example is Anthony Davis. As great as Anthony Davis is, (Randle will never be Davis) He needed a Lebron to get the ring. Without star guards or wings this team will not be more than it is.


Duncan, Dirk, Giannis, Durant (now) are PFs...
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#46 » by HarthorneWingo » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:49 am

thebuzzardman wrote:I'm not an expert, but I believe the main issue with the team is that they suck


:lol:

I'd like to tinker with it first. I think we have some good talent on the team. Do you like to tinker?
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#47 » by Gravy » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:50 am

Whoever we replace Randle with will have to average at least 50 pts a game because the Knicks have not shown the ability to get more than one starting caliber player on the roster at the same time.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#48 » by seren » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:09 pm

Winning a championship? Come on now. All we want is to comfortably watch a game against Orlando
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#49 » by j4remi » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:25 pm

Randle's role last year was kinda similar to Iverson's Sixers. He had an elite defense around him and the offense was basically "pass it to Randle and hope he produces enough to drag us past the finish line in a dogfight." That meant he could get away with a few extra mistakes because the defense would get extra stops to cover.

This year, the defense is middle of the pack and there's enough offense that Randle doesn't need to be involved in everything happening. He can't afford to make mistakes like last season, because we can't get the stops to cover for it. Even when he tries to involve others, a LOT of it comes with him trying to be one pass away. That means his gravity is still disrupting other ball-handlers even when he shares (which is the opposite of what we would want).

I THINK, he'll figure this out with reps and time. That third-quarter against Chicago was mostly Kemba on the ball and Randle feeding off it. But there's a big adjustment here for Randle and it's no guarantee he finds a great balance. That said, he can ease the load by putting more effort into his own defense. He SHOULD be able to expend more energy on defense than last year since his workload offensively is lightening...but he's keeping last year's offensive workload and also taking more plays off on defense. His defense waning is my biggest concern.
PG - Cory Joseph/T. Jones/G Riller
SG - Booker/Little
SF - D Bane/ K. Anderson/R. Hood
PF - T. Young/Griffin/Culver
C - Vucevic/Griffin/K. Jones


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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#50 » by aq_ua » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:35 pm

Kemba was on JJ Reddick and talked about how he relies on bigs to free him up and create separation because he can’t do it on his own. That goes a long way to explain why Kemba is struggling so much on a team where Taj is the only good screener and Kemba has to try and break defenses off the dribble.

The third quarter was key for Kemba because Randle was setting good picks for him and rolling hard to the rim. That can be a dangerous play for us and one I would like to see more often, especially earlier on the game. That action can create the secondary and tertiary action on the wings and set up corner threes - you know, how every other NBA team does it.

Hope this is the first step in creating an offense that works. It’s nice to see our defense start to pick up, but the offense has just been brutal for the most part.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#51 » by Chanel Bomber » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:50 pm

aq_ua wrote:Kemba was on JJ Reddick and talked about how he relies on bigs to free him up and create separation because he can’t do it on his own. That goes a long way to explain why Kemba is struggling so much on a team where Taj is the only good screener and Kemba has to try and break defenses off the dribble.

The third quarter was key for Kemba because Randle was setting good picks for him and rolling hard to the rim. That can be a dangerous play for us and one I would like to see more often, especially earlier on the game. That action can create the secondary and tertiary action on the wings and set up corner threes - you know, how every other NBA team does it.

Hope this is the first step in creating an offense that works. It’s nice to see our defense start to pick up, but the offense has just been brutal for the most part.

Interesting.

Randle won't ever become an impact player in the NBA until he starts playing pick-and-roll more often. He should be playing more like 98 Karl Malone, not like 2013 Melo. Imo.

Randle in the PNR when engaged (and not just ISOing after the pass) opens up our whole offense.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#52 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:46 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:I'm not an expert, but I believe the main issue with the team is that they suck


:lol:

I'd like to tinker with it first. I think we have some good talent on the team. Do you like to tinker?


If this was a workplace, pretty sure I'd need to call HR right now
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#53 » by thebuzzardman » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:47 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
aq_ua wrote:Kemba was on JJ Reddick and talked about how he relies on bigs to free him up and create separation because he can’t do it on his own. That goes a long way to explain why Kemba is struggling so much on a team where Taj is the only good screener and Kemba has to try and break defenses off the dribble.

The third quarter was key for Kemba because Randle was setting good picks for him and rolling hard to the rim. That can be a dangerous play for us and one I would like to see more often, especially earlier on the game. That action can create the secondary and tertiary action on the wings and set up corner threes - you know, how every other NBA team does it.

Hope this is the first step in creating an offense that works. It’s nice to see our defense start to pick up, but the offense has just been brutal for the most part.

Interesting.

Randle won't ever become an impact player in the NBA until he starts playing pick-and-roll more often. He should be playing more like 98 Karl Malone, not like 2013 Melo. Imo.

Randle in the PNR when engaged (and not just ISOing after the pass) opens up our whole offense.


Because:
Noel rail thin
Mitch too dumb
Randle too selfish
Simms too sexy for the screen, too sexy for the screen
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#54 » by Ray Williams » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:06 pm

whocares1 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
No lol. Randle is a 4 ..like every minute of his on court play is usually at the 4 while Giannis is versatile can be used at the 3 or 5 which he was doing in the Finals. It’s just not the same, investing on a 4 in todays nba never made sense.

My point was it really doesn’t matter what position your best player is.. they just have to be a generational talent.. which we don’t have one


But it does matter because if it’s a generational talent he probably can fill in at different positions during different times in a game. And my point is also true that there has never been a 4 who only plays 4 that has lead his team to a championship.


I guess you never heard of Elvin Hayes. Played nothing but 4 and was the best player on the championship Bullets team.

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