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The real problem with this team

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#21 » by Galvationknicks » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:25 am

No more mvp chants for Randle lol
Im still hurting from the Ewing trade. Worst trade in Knick history!!!
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#22 » by Chanel Bomber » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:34 am

bleedblue3303 wrote:I feel like there are quiet a few problems with everyone's analysis. The problem isn't as much whether Randle is good or selfish or plays too much Iso etc. etc.

I would ask this question:
Name a team since the Tim Duncan spurs that won a championship with PF as the best player? Lebron and Durant are more guards that play that position at times so please don't use that as the example. To win in the NBA you need amazing guard and wing play.

The team is perfect for a disgruntled wing and guard to join and take over. Randle would move to the 2nd or 3rd option. I have to believe this front office knows something we don't. You are kidding yourself if you think Leon and Wes are not looped in to the desired movement of star players.

The first step was changing the culture, which wasn't as much about winning or losing as it was staying off the back page of the post and no longer being considered a joke of a franchise by the league. This was achieved last year.

This year is about bringing in contracts that are large enough and moveable to match with our bevy of draft pics for a disgruntled star. This has also been achieved. It's about waiting for the trade deadline or upcoming off season. If I was a gambling man I would bet the farm this team will look very different this time next year.

Its not like other years where we are looking for a savior to fix a crumbling franchise. We are a stable team now figuring out who will come to be its best player on the court.

Randle's position is not an issue.

LeBron played the 4 on those Miami teams and in the Bubble. Dirk played the 4 on Dallas. Giannis played the 4 on Milwaukee.

The problem is Randle's isn't talented enough to be the #1 option on a contender. Probably not a #2 either.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#23 » by whocares1 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:45 am

DaGawd wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Giannis is a pf.. just saying


No lol. Randle is a 4 ..like every minute of his on court play is usually at the 4 while Giannis is versatile can be used at the 3 or 5 which he was doing in the Finals. It’s just not the same, investing on a 4 in todays nba never made sense.

My point was it really doesn’t matter what position your best player is.. they just have to be a generational talent.. which we don’t have one


But it does matter because if it’s a generational talent he probably can fill in at different positions during different times in a game. And my point is also true that there has never been a 4 who only plays 4 that has lead his team to a championship.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#24 » by whocares1 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:47 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
Capn'O wrote:Very true that Woodson doesn't get his due. Everyone has overachieved with him.
And his switching defence is now league blue print. Phil was wrong to fire him.

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Na. I remember having headaches watching Tyson Chandler guard point guards half the game on 1-5 pick and rolls. The league is designed much differently now than when he coached. PJ Tucker would’ve never logged a single minute at the 5 during Woodson’s era.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#25 » by DaGawd » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:49 am

whocares1 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
No lol. Randle is a 4 ..like every minute of his on court play is usually at the 4 while Giannis is versatile can be used at the 3 or 5 which he was doing in the Finals. It’s just not the same, investing on a 4 in todays nba never made sense.

My point was it really doesn’t matter what position your best player is.. they just have to be a generational talent.. which we don’t have one


But it does matter because if it’s a generational talent he probably can fill in at different positions during different times in a game. And my point is also true that there has never been a 4 who only plays 4 that has lead his team to a championship.

Most players don’t only play 1 position.. especially I. Todays nba.. he’ll even Randle doesn’t
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#26 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:59 am

whocares1 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Giannis is a pf.. just saying


No lol. Randle is a 4 ..like every minute of his on court play is usually at the 4 while Giannis is versatile can be used at the 3 or 5 which he was doing in the Finals. It’s just not the same, investing on a 4 in todays nba never made sense.
Giannis started between Brook Lopez and Khris Middleton. He plays the 4.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#27 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:04 am

DaGawd wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:My point was it really doesn’t matter what position your best player is.. they just have to be a generational talent.. which we don’t have one


But it does matter because if it’s a generational talent he probably can fill in at different positions during different times in a game. And my point is also true that there has never been a 4 who only plays 4 that has lead his team to a championship.

Most players don’t only play 1 position.. especially I. Todays nba.. he’ll even Randle doesn’t
He just wants to say Randle cant lead us to a championship. Because Lebron, Durant, Antetounkumpo, Duncan all won as power forwards.

Our 4 plays the 1 most of the time amd has been defended by ones so the argument he only plays 4 is specious at best.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#28 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:09 am

Nazrmohamed wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
bleedblue3303 wrote:

The team is perfect for a disgruntled wing and guard to join and take over. Randle would move to the 2nd or 3rd option. I have to believe this front office knows something we don't. You are kidding yourself if you think Leon and Wes are not looped in to the desired movement of star players.



Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.


Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.



I hear this alot but the moment you get one and I mean a true alpha people step in line. I heard the same arguments about Melo until it was clear he wasn't ever gonna be that guy and he then stepped in line. Problem with the Knicks historically is "there can be only one" mindset. I watch teams with literally 3 alphas who figure it out, sometimes they don't but still the talent is overwhelming.

But with the Knicks it's
-Bernard King and the next best guy is really another teams 3rd or 4th option
-Patrick and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth option
-Steph and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option
-Melo and you're starting to get it
-Julius and you get it.

And then of course there's always argument as to whether the guys I mentioned were even 1st place options. The day we trade for a superstar we'll dump Julius to get him and then......the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option and we're always sooooo confused as to why this guy can't win and start devaluing that guy. Now I'll be the 1st to say Julius isn't a primary option but I don't think hes selfish. I think Thibodeau is an enabler and a simplistic offensive coach. Even if he woke up tomorrow and said 'Julius we're gonna run this team through Rose" let's just say. Then all of a sudden he'd overwork Rose and have Julius act as some 3rd or 4rth option. Even in the 90s to win you had to have 2 guys acting in tandem. Nowadays you need 3.

So idkwtf we bout to do



It's not really a mindset of who is alpha and who is not, in Randle's case it's just that his game is extremely ball dominant. It's really similar to Russell Westbrook but from the PF spot, he uses a ton of possessions per game. You can't have a number 2 that needs 70+ touches per game to be semi effective, it's not like Randle is some efficiency monster, he absolutely needs all those touches to put up his numbers because he has never shown that he can play off ball and remain effective. You really need to understand how many times he touches the ball and how many possessions go through him, if you removed 20-30 of those per game and dropped him down into the 50 touches per game range he's not going to post numbers consistent with a number 2 because his current numbers are coming with superstar level touches.

It's incredibly hard to build around iso heavy players, nevermind iso heavy ball dominant guys that aren't even great scorers. He would not be starting for any serious contender, it's too hard to put people around him and run a quality offense because so many of the possessions go to him.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#29 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:21 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.


Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.



I hear this alot but the moment you get one and I mean a true alpha people step in line. I heard the same arguments about Melo until it was clear he wasn't ever gonna be that guy and he then stepped in line. Problem with the Knicks historically is "there can be only one" mindset. I watch teams with literally 3 alphas who figure it out, sometimes they don't but still the talent is overwhelming.

But with the Knicks it's
-Bernard King and the next best guy is really another teams 3rd or 4th option
-Patrick and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth option
-Steph and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option
-Melo and you're starting to get it
-Julius and you get it.

And then of course there's always argument as to whether the guys I mentioned were even 1st place options. The day we trade for a superstar we'll dump Julius to get him and then......the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option and we're always sooooo confused as to why this guy can't win and start devaluing that guy. Now I'll be the 1st to say Julius isn't a primary option but I don't think hes selfish. I think Thibodeau is an enabler and a simplistic offensive coach. Even if he woke up tomorrow and said 'Julius we're gonna run this team through Rose" let's just say. Then all of a sudden he'd overwork Rose and have Julius act as some 3rd or 4rth option. Even in the 90s to win you had to have 2 guys acting in tandem. Nowadays you need 3.

So idkwtf we bout to do



It's not really a mindset of who is alpha and who is not, in Randle's case it's just that his game is extremely ball dominant. It's really similar to Russell Westbrook but from the PF spot, he uses a ton of possessions per game. You can't have a number 2 that needs 70+ touches per game to be semi effective, it's not like Randle is some efficiency monster, he absolutely needs all those touches to put up his numbers because he has never shown that he can play off ball and remain effective. You really need to understand how many times he touches the ball and how many possessions go through him, if you removed 20-30 of those per game and dropped him down into the 50 touches per game range he's not going to post numbers consistent with a number 2 because his current numbers are coming with superstar level touches.

It's incredibly hard to build around iso heavy players, nevermind iso heavy ball dominant guys that aren't even great scorers. He would not be starting for any serious contender, it's too hard to put people around him and run a quality offense because so many of the possessions go to him.
His last year in NEw Orleans says very different.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#30 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:29 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:

I hear this alot but the moment you get one and I mean a true alpha people step in line. I heard the same arguments about Melo until it was clear he wasn't ever gonna be that guy and he then stepped in line. Problem with the Knicks historically is "there can be only one" mindset. I watch teams with literally 3 alphas who figure it out, sometimes they don't but still the talent is overwhelming.

But with the Knicks it's
-Bernard King and the next best guy is really another teams 3rd or 4th option
-Patrick and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth option
-Steph and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option
-Melo and you're starting to get it
-Julius and you get it.

And then of course there's always argument as to whether the guys I mentioned were even 1st place options. The day we trade for a superstar we'll dump Julius to get him and then......the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option and we're always sooooo confused as to why this guy can't win and start devaluing that guy. Now I'll be the 1st to say Julius isn't a primary option but I don't think hes selfish. I think Thibodeau is an enabler and a simplistic offensive coach. Even if he woke up tomorrow and said 'Julius we're gonna run this team through Rose" let's just say. Then all of a sudden he'd overwork Rose and have Julius act as some 3rd or 4rth option. Even in the 90s to win you had to have 2 guys acting in tandem. Nowadays you need 3.

So idkwtf we bout to do



It's not really a mindset of who is alpha and who is not, in Randle's case it's just that his game is extremely ball dominant. It's really similar to Russell Westbrook but from the PF spot, he uses a ton of possessions per game. You can't have a number 2 that needs 70+ touches per game to be semi effective, it's not like Randle is some efficiency monster, he absolutely needs all those touches to put up his numbers because he has never shown that he can play off ball and remain effective. You really need to understand how many times he touches the ball and how many possessions go through him, if you removed 20-30 of those per game and dropped him down into the 50 touches per game range he's not going to post numbers consistent with a number 2 because his current numbers are coming with superstar level touches.

It's incredibly hard to build around iso heavy players, nevermind iso heavy ball dominant guys that aren't even great scorers. He would not be starting for any serious contender, it's too hard to put people around him and run a quality offense because so many of the possessions go to him.
His last year in NEw Orleans says very different.

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They were 31-42 with him, they found out the hard way he's not a number 2 or 3 and let him walk for absolutely nothing, great point.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#31 » by whocares1 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:04 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
DaGawd wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
But it does matter because if it’s a generational talent he probably can fill in at different positions during different times in a game. And my point is also true that there has never been a 4 who only plays 4 that has lead his team to a championship.

Most players don’t only play 1 position.. especially I. Todays nba.. he’ll even Randle doesn’t
He just wants to say Randle cant lead us to a championship. Because Lebron, Durant, Antetounkumpo, Duncan all won as power forwards.

Our 4 plays the 1 most of the time amd has been defended by ones so the argument he only plays 4 is specious at best.

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Umm Giannis was playing the 5 in the Finals on big stretches of the game. Lebron played 3 and 4. Durant plays 3 and 4 and even some 5 on the Warriors against the Cavs. You guys keep thinking starting at the 4 means playing the whole game at 4 and it’s not the same. And Duncan definitely played stretches at the 5 too.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#32 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:34 am

whocares1 wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Most players don’t only play 1 position.. especially I. Todays nba.. he’ll even Randle doesn’t
He just wants to say Randle cant lead us to a championship. Because Lebron, Durant, Antetounkumpo, Duncan all won as power forwards.

Our 4 plays the 1 most of the time amd has been defended by ones so the argument he only plays 4 is specious at best.

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Umm Giannis was playing the 5 in the Finals on big stretches of the game. Lebron played 3 and 4. Durant plays 3 and 4 and even some 5 on the Warriors against the Cavs. You guys keep thinking starting at the 4 means playing the whole game at 4 and it’s not the same. And Duncan definitely played stretches at the 5 too.
And Randle plays the 1 for us and 5 at times.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#33 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:36 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

It's not really a mindset of who is alpha and who is not, in Randle's case it's just that his game is extremely ball dominant. It's really similar to Russell Westbrook but from the PF spot, he uses a ton of possessions per game. You can't have a number 2 that needs 70+ touches per game to be semi effective, it's not like Randle is some efficiency monster, he absolutely needs all those touches to put up his numbers because he has never shown that he can play off ball and remain effective. You really need to understand how many times he touches the ball and how many possessions go through him, if you removed 20-30 of those per game and dropped him down into the 50 touches per game range he's not going to post numbers consistent with a number 2 because his current numbers are coming with superstar level touches.

It's incredibly hard to build around iso heavy players, nevermind iso heavy ball dominant guys that aren't even great scorers. He would not be starting for any serious contender, it's too hard to put people around him and run a quality offense because so many of the possessions go to him.
His last year in NEw Orleans says very different.

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Image


They were 31-42 with him, they found out the hard way he's not a number 2 or 3 and let him walk for absolutely nothing, great point.
He was going to be an expensive piece and they drafted Zion but go ahead with your narrative.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#34 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:38 am

whocares1 wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Most players don’t only play 1 position.. especially I. Todays nba.. he’ll even Randle doesn’t
He just wants to say Randle cant lead us to a championship. Because Lebron, Durant, Antetounkumpo, Duncan all won as power forwards.

Our 4 plays the 1 most of the time amd has been defended by ones so the argument he only plays 4 is specious at best.

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Umm Giannis was playing the 5 in the Finals on big stretches of the game. Lebron played 3 and 4. Durant plays 3 and 4 and even some 5 on the Warriors against the Cavs. You guys keep thinking starting at the 4 means playing the whole game at 4 and it’s not the same. And Duncan definitely played stretches at the 5 too.
Your argumemt really goes to lineups which is a coaching thing not a player ability issue.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#35 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:44 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:His last year in NEw Orleans says very different.

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Image


They were 31-42 with him, they found out the hard way he's not a number 2 or 3 and let him walk for absolutely nothing, great point.
He was going to be an expensive piece and they drafted Zion but go ahead with your narrative.

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You're all over the place, he wasn't going to be expensive piece considering his market was basically just us. You tried to use his numbers in New Orleans like they meant anything, with Davis missing 26 games and the team being awful with Randle starting, but Julius got his numbers, sound familiar? :lol:

Now it's well they got Zion, and he was going to be expensive. They would have retained him if he were as good as you think but he's just not that good, but keep drinking the kool aid.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#36 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:54 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:


Image


They were 31-42 with him, they found out the hard way he's not a number 2 or 3 and let him walk for absolutely nothing, great point.
He was going to be an expensive piece and they drafted Zion but go ahead with your narrative.

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You're all over the place, he wasn't going to be expensive piece considering his market was basically just us. You tried to use his numbers in New Orleans like they meant anything, with Davis missing 26 games and the team being awful with Randle starting, but Julius got his numbers, sound familiar?

Now it's well they got Zion, and he was going to be expensive. They would have retained him if he were as good as you think but he's just not that good, but keep drinking the kool aid.
I'm answering why they let him go. But he played off the ball in NO and put up numbers. It wasn't a struggle to play him off the ball. He wasnt initiating offence.

Julius can play off the ball if you give him someone to control the offence. It's wildly inaccurate to say he can't play off the ball effectively.

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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#37 » by GONYK » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:05 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:He was going to be an expensive piece and they drafted Zion but go ahead with your narrative.

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You're all over the place, he wasn't going to be expensive piece considering his market was basically just us. You tried to use his numbers in New Orleans like they meant anything, with Davis missing 26 games and the team being awful with Randle starting, but Julius got his numbers, sound familiar?

Now it's well they got Zion, and he was going to be expensive. They would have retained him if he were as good as you think but he's just not that good, but keep drinking the kool aid.
I'm answering why they let him go. But he played off the ball in NO and put up numbers. It wasn't a struggle to play him off the ball. He wasnt initiating offence.

Julius can play off the ball if you give him someone to control the offence. It's wildly inaccurate to say he can't play off the ball effectively.

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We have to find ways to make him a finisher again and limit his playmaking to short-roll situations.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#38 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:10 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:He was going to be an expensive piece and they drafted Zion but go ahead with your narrative.

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You're all over the place, he wasn't going to be expensive piece considering his market was basically just us. You tried to use his numbers in New Orleans like they meant anything, with Davis missing 26 games and the team being awful with Randle starting, but Julius got his numbers, sound familiar?

Now it's well they got Zion, and he was going to be expensive. They would have retained him if he were as good as you think but he's just not that good, but keep drinking the kool aid.
I'm answering why they let him go. But he played off the ball in NO and put up numbers. It wasn't a struggle to play him off the ball. He wasnt initiating offence.

Julius can play off the ball if you give him someone to control the offence. It's wildly inaccurate to say he can't play off the ball effectively.

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You're wrong, his numbers increased after the Pelicans started benching Davis and playing him only half of the game, he became the Pelicans number 1 option in that stretch. He shot 18 times per game over the last 26 games of the season, his usage rate was 30.2 :lol: They were 9-17 in that stretch. Is a 30.2 usage rate someone who is playing off the ball? Julius got his numbers, the team offense was abysmal and they lost, but Julius got his numbers that's the important thing.

Guess what his offensive rating was in those 26 games, 109, his career ORTG is 108 excluding his rookie year, his ORTG last year was 111, his ORTG this year is 103. He is and always has been the same guy, the biggest difference is we're the fools who let him pretend he's a PG.
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#39 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:43 am

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
You're all over the place, he wasn't going to be expensive piece considering his market was basically just us. You tried to use his numbers in New Orleans like they meant anything, with Davis missing 26 games and the team being awful with Randle starting, but Julius got his numbers, sound familiar?

Now it's well they got Zion, and he was going to be expensive. They would have retained him if he were as good as you think but he's just not that good, but keep drinking the kool aid.
I'm answering why they let him go. But he played off the ball in NO and put up numbers. It wasn't a struggle to play him off the ball. He wasnt initiating offence.

Julius can play off the ball if you give him someone to control the offence. It's wildly inaccurate to say he can't play off the ball effectively.

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You're wrong, his numbers increased after the Pelicans started benching Davis and playing him only half of the game, he became the Pelicans number 1 option in that stretch. He shot 18 times per game over the last 26 games of the season, his usage rate was 30.2 They were 9-17 in that stretch. Is a 30.2 usage rate someone who is playing off the ball? Julius got his numbers, the team offense was abysmal and they lost, but Julius got his numbers that's the important thing.

Guess what his offensive rating was in those 26 games, 109, his career ORTG is 108 excluding his rookie year, his ORTG last year was 111, his ORTG this year is 103. He is and always has been the same guy, the biggest difference is we're the fools who let him pretend he's a PG.
Julius did not play the role he is playing here when he replaced Davis. He was not brimging up the ball. He was in a finishing role. And their record was always gping to be terrible not because of Julius but because AD was gone and they were bottoming out.

I don't even think Ingram was playing at that time because of bloodclots.

So Julius did well enough in that season in LA/NOP off the ball with Lebron dominating the ball and without at NOP to be a finisher/rebounder again if you had better talemt ahead of him.

There is no better talent ahead or even close to him in NY which is why you see what you see. Half the time or more Kemba gives him the ball coming up the floor so he's playing currently by design. Which means you can alter that design.

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KnixtapeH20
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Re: The real problem with this team 

Post#40 » by KnixtapeH20 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:10 am

Galvationknicks wrote:No Noel we lose this game

LOLLLL????

Are u deadass.. What the hell are u watching?

U think Noel is Patrick Ewing or something?
**** the nets... Fake ass NY :nonono:

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