NoDopeOnSundays wrote: Nazrmohamed wrote:
Why is it just assumed he can take on a secondary role? Look at how much he's struggling with playing with other offensive players right now, why should anyone believe he'd be able to play with someone more ball dominant than himself. He still leads our team in touches per game by a very wide margin, he has the ball more than Giannis or Embiid, think about that. He's not at all efficient and the ball stops when he gets it, so I think it's fair to question him being a 2 or 3. All of his efficiency numbers scream out that he's a 6th man on a contender, he wouldn't start for the vast majority of good teams because either their PFs can shoot, play off ball, defend or do dirty work.
Nobody wants a ball stopping PF that doesn't play defense, well nobody except us.
I hear this alot but the moment you get one and I mean a true alpha people step in line. I heard the same arguments about Melo until it was clear he wasn't ever gonna be that guy and he then stepped in line. Problem with the Knicks historically is "there can be only one" mindset. I watch teams with literally 3 alphas who figure it out, sometimes they don't but still the talent is overwhelming.
But with the Knicks it's
-Bernard King and the next best guy is really another teams 3rd or 4th option
-Patrick and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth option
-Steph and then the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option
-Melo and you're starting to get it
-Julius and you get it.
And then of course there's always argument as to whether the guys I mentioned were even 1st place options. The day we trade for a superstar we'll dump Julius to get him and then......the next best guy is a 3rd or 4rth best option and we're always sooooo confused as to why this guy can't win and start devaluing that guy. Now I'll be the 1st to say Julius isn't a primary option but I don't think hes selfish. I think Thibodeau is an enabler and a simplistic offensive coach. Even if he woke up tomorrow and said 'Julius we're gonna run this team through Rose" let's just say. Then all of a sudden he'd overwork Rose and have Julius act as some 3rd or 4rth option. Even in the 90s to win you had to have 2 guys acting in tandem. Nowadays you need 3.
So idkwtf we bout to do
It's not really a mindset of who is alpha and who is not, in Randle's case it's just that his game is extremely ball dominant. It's really similar to Russell Westbrook but from the PF spot, he uses a ton of possessions per game. You can't have a number 2 that needs 70+ touches per game to be semi effective, it's not like Randle is some efficiency monster, he absolutely needs all those touches to put up his numbers because he has never shown that he can play off ball and remain effective. You really need to understand how many times he touches the ball and how many possessions go through him, if you removed 20-30 of those per game and dropped him down into the 50 touches per game range he's not going to post numbers consistent with a number 2 because his current numbers are coming with superstar level touches.
It's incredibly hard to build around iso heavy players, nevermind iso heavy ball dominant guys that aren't even great scorers. He would not be starting for any serious contender, it's too hard to put people around him and run a quality offense because so many of the possessions go to him.
Not really. He can have 20 touches for all I care it's more about how he recieves his touches which you could still be right about just saying it ain't about how many times he's looking to score.
But since you brought him up let's just say for arguments sake you got a guy like Russell and played him with Julius. You just said it yourself Russell will dominate the ball and basically create the stage in which Julius can score with the ball.
1-an assisted bucket
See what I'm saying? There would be no room for Randle to isolate. He'll get the ball when Russel decides. Now quick, think of someone not names Westbrook cuz the **** version is now burned in your brain. The same would happen with Lillard, with just about all of the top tier PGs and most top tier wings. Randle would become to Lillard what RJ is to him, except obvious both would be better players. Lillard to Randle and Randle to RJ.
I think we overthink it. Get the star and then guess what? You could still trade Randle after the fact, isn't that what you're endorsing? Trading Randle. Get the star, see how they mesh. If not it's not like Randle hasn't established himself as talented.