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Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier?

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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#101 » by seren » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:00 pm

TexasMassacre wrote:Close to $80 MILLION for Fournier is a bloody travesty. Shambles. Waste of dollary doos!


I get that we all want to be outrage but this is false. It is a $54 million contract.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#102 » by seren » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:01 pm

I know we live day to day but I am going to say no
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#103 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:02 pm

seren wrote:
TexasMassacre wrote:Close to $80 MILLION for Fournier is a bloody travesty. Shambles. Waste of dollary doos!


I get that we all want to be outrage but this is false. It is a $54 million contract.



The dollar value is irrelevant to be honest, it's the same amount of years as DeRozan.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#104 » by seren » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:07 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
seren wrote:
TexasMassacre wrote:Close to $80 MILLION for Fournier is a bloody travesty. Shambles. Waste of dollary doos!


I get that we all want to be outrage but this is false. It is a $54 million contract.



The dollar value is irrelevant to be honest, it's the same amount of years as DeRozan.


I disagree. Dollar value determines leftover cap space. Plus the dollar value impacts which and how trades are consummated.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#105 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:09 pm

seren wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
seren wrote:
I get that we all want to be outrage but this is false. It is a $54 million contract.



The dollar value is irrelevant to be honest, it's the same amount of years as DeRozan.


I disagree. Dollar value determines leftover cap space. Plus the dollar value impacts which and how trades are consummated.




There's an $7-10 million difference between their contracts, it's negligible at best, especially when you take into account Kemba's contract as well. We're not signing a star with caproom, it will take a trade, and moving a contract like DeMar's is possible without too much trouble.

The years are what matters, you can move DeMar in the 3rd year just the same as you will be able to move Fournier.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#106 » by Nazrmohamed » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:56 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:Derozan at age 35 making 28 million in 3 years... Yep seems real appetizing for a team to take on lmao.

Fournier is still the better value given his past production. It hasn't worked out so far and I'm not a Fournier guy per se, but it's way easier to move 18-20 mill of him than it is to move 28 million of an aging Derozan who isn't really a plug and play guy himself...

Also after a hot start against weaker opponents, the Bulls are now 8-6 in their last 14. More where we thought they would be and DD's numbers over the last 8 or so games have started to regress to where he usually has been...25/4/4 47/33/90 splits. Still good but not nearly as good as how he started.

Again early season narratives tend to make people forget how long the season truly is. We've played about a month of ball and still have until April to finish this whole season.


Thanks for the context. I wasn't even aware of how the Bulls record played out. Still though, it's not working and in Kembas case I honestly think hes washed as a player. Maybe 1 of 3 games he'll give you a solid half of basketball and then coast but beyond that a major disappointment. Fournier I think just needs rhythm. He needs an offense where the ball moves the passes are timely and there's some level of deception in the system. This offense is predictable.

I agree with everything you said but think Derozen would've been better and here me out for a second cuz everything you said makes sense. But thinking of our coach and what I said was a predictable offense. Thibs probably sees the problem not as his system is slow and predictable; in his mind it's more like "why can't I have more individuals that can make something happen?" And to some extent he's right, we did go into the summer needing a guy who can create but to me not to the extent that you don't create easy baskets. So in a way Derozen would act as a Thibs enabler and vice versa.

Right now Thibs has no issue with the way Randle plays, he wishes he had more Randles. Ya see what I'm saying? I hope I'm getting my point across. I want Thibs to take a guy like Randle and play as if you don't need him to create his own shots but when it becomes necessary it's like an ACE card.


I think your last 2 paragraphs has more to do with the backcourt's inconsistencies than it does with Thibs... Thibs is actually much more flexible on O than people give him credit for. A lot of his Bulls offenses ran through a non iso scoring Joakim Noah post-Rose injury.

Randle is going to iso just like any star player. There needs to be other guys making plays or else the offense is naturally going to look stagnant because they'll become too reliant on Randle.


Lemme explain why I disagree. Literally the moment Randle leaves the game we start doing exactly what I'm talking about. I watch PGs cross half court and literally hand it to him then move off into a formation. I've seen Kemba do it, I've seen Rose do it, I've seen Quickley do it. Early in the shot clock.

When was the last time you saw Randle set a pick pick any of his PGs, then dart to the basket and then that PG bounce passes or whatever he needs to do (essentially PG creator/Randle finisher) in the pick and roll. You already know none four Cs get those opportunities. Obi wad almost run out of town last yr. Do we really think hes doing anything that dramatic this yr? In fact he could use more touches now.

So what I'm saying is if you're not gonna run down a 10pt offensive checklist before taking a midrange contested jumper Thibs isn't really gonna find you in his offense. Thibs doesn't believe in pick and roll that I watch teams run 20Xs per game. It's more of a feature offense. Very 90s-ish.

Does it take Damian Lillard here to get Randle to play off the ball for a second? Does it take Chris Paul to run simple pick and rolls to get Mitch and Noel involved? Does it take Steve Nash to get out I'm transition? From my perspective actually, all it takes is for Thibs not to have the option which is why we look like a basketball team when the second unit comes in. Supposedly less skilled but they just move the ball, speed the game up and have fun out there.

I went through this with Melo and now gotta watch it happen to Julius? And I don't even necessarily blame them. Guys like Thibs enables those behaviors.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#107 » by nedleeds » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:58 pm

Thibs = Woody = Steve Clifford = Scott Brooks

Gutless coaches who yell accountability, but yank guys like IQ after 1 bad play but let the Randle and Melos of the world chuck, loaf and get T's from the bench.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#108 » by seren » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:41 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
seren wrote:
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:

The dollar value is irrelevant to be honest, it's the same amount of years as DeRozan.


I disagree. Dollar value determines leftover cap space. Plus the dollar value impacts which and how trades are consummated.




There's an $7-10 million difference between their contracts, it's negligible at best, especially when you take into account Kemba's contract as well. We're not signing a star with caproom, it will take a trade, and moving a contract like DeMar's is possible without too much trouble.

The years are what matters, you can move DeMar in the 3rd year just the same as you will be able to move Fournier.


It is 10 million per year to be exact. Kemba’s contract is two years. I don’t see how 10 million is negligible to be honest.

Plus you are assuming DeMar would perform the same here as he is in Chicago. DeMar is playing PF right now. He would look miserable as a guard. He is playing with Ball, So the guy you should be looking at is Randle. We don’t have the same personnel to make DeMar work here. You have to essentially change the whole team construct.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#109 » by seren » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:42 pm

nedleeds wrote:Thibs = Woody = Steve Clifford = Scott Brooks

Gutless coaches who yell accountability, but yank guys like IQ after 1 bad play but let the Randle and Melos of the world chuck, loaf and get T's from the bench.


Honestly I am very surprised by his performance here. He looked like a dude who would be demanding effort whole game every game
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#110 » by nedleeds » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:50 pm

seren wrote:
nedleeds wrote:Thibs = Woody = Steve Clifford = Scott Brooks

Gutless coaches who yell accountability, but yank guys like IQ after 1 bad play but let the Randle and Melos of the world chuck, loaf and get T's from the bench.


Honestly I am very surprised by his performance here. He looked like a dude who would be demanding effort whole game every game


I think he's probably above average in out of game preparation and practice coaching, especially his defensive "system" (which is just yelling at people to rotate and not go for head fakes on close outs).

But in game he's horrible. Bottom 5 in the league. We get nothing out of timeouts, we have cringeworthy late game everything from our offense turning in a clogged toilet, to O/D substitutions, to using his challenge and not letting it expire, to riding the hot hand, and game to game adjustments. Nate McMillan put his balls in Thibs mouth and dipped several times.

The out of game stuff is fine for a while but I think it has a shelf life. Unless you have a maniac like Jimmy Butler or Prime Health Rose to enforce and be your guy in the locker room it's kind of useless.

Throw in the insane minutes that cook your players and leave you with no experience for young guys to give you some development an depth and you end up on the road to nowhere.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#111 » by sol537 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:59 pm

Start: Noel (our best defender and a true anchor), Randle, RJ, Fournier, IQ
(let IQ, RJ, and Fournier share in playmaking duties)

Bench: Mitch (until he's traded at the deadline), Obi (get him more back-up "5" minutes for small ball with Randle), Burks, Rose

Buyout/waive Walker

Once we make that simple tweak, we'll grow into a better team than last season even if our standings position ends up lower.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#112 » by Gravy » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:19 pm

Get Derozan on this team instead and the same people that want him now would be complaining about the spacing, not being a #1, treadmill, age, contract, fit etc.

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Its more fun to doom n gloom 5 games into the season but I'll wait until the all star break or playoffs and see if Demar and the Bulls are still dominating.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#113 » by nyknicks09 » Yesterday 3:46 am

Gravy wrote:Get Derozan on this team instead and the same people that want him now would be complaining about the spacing, not being a #1, treadmill, age, contract, fit etc.

Image

Its more fun to doom n gloom 5 games into the season but I'll wait until the all star break or playoffs and see if Demar and the Bulls are still dominating.


You obviously are not watching Bulls games since the start of the season and we already played them twice. Billy Donovan is a good NBA head coach and understand how to play his young guys due to him coaching in college.

He’s developing good habits with his veteran players along with the young guys off the bench. Good substitutions and manages their minutes the best possible way because it’s a long season so he’s going to manage that accordingly.

The Bulls front office has done a great job so far helping Billy Donovan and Lavine(free agent after this season/smart move by the Bulls) with some proven veteran signings in the offseason in other words someone is earning their paycheck unlike Leon Rose handing free paychecks to unproven players.

Give credit where credit is due cause the Bulls have really improved their team tremendously with their free agent signings.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#114 » by thebuzzardman » Yesterday 4:20 am

nyknicks09 wrote:
Gravy wrote:Get Derozan on this team instead and the same people that want him now would be complaining about the spacing, not being a #1, treadmill, age, contract, fit etc.

Image

Its more fun to doom n gloom 5 games into the season but I'll wait until the all star break or playoffs and see if Demar and the Bulls are still dominating.


You obviously are not watching Bulls games since the start of the season and we already played them twice. Billy Donovan is a good NBA head coach and understand how to play his young guys due to him coaching in college.

He’s developing good habits with his veteran players along with the young guys off the bench. Good substitutions and manages their minutes the best possible way because it’s a long season so he’s going to manage that accordingly.

The Bulls front office has done a great job so far helping Billy Donovan and Lavine(free agent after this season/smart move by the Bulls) with some proven veteran signings in the offseason in other words someone is earning their paycheck unlike Leon Rose handing free paychecks to unproven players.

Give credit where credit is due cause the Bulls have really improved their team tremendously with their free agent signings.


The Bulls started their rebuild with a guy like LaVine already on the team. The Knicks have RJ.

And the Knicks are trying to recover from the 3 consecutive drafts of Frank/Knox/RJ. And drafting Obi wasn't exactly knocking it out of the park, but we'll let the "new" regime have that mulligan.

Kemba is ass. Fournier is ok. I'm not going to keep beating the dead horse with you. What's bad is putting Fournier next to RJ, because RJ is so limited. And that's on the FO. Along with Kemba.

Thibs is as good a coach as Billy friggin Donovan. The difference is the talent on the rosters. Coaches don't matter that much anyway, but I think Thibs makes the Knicks better. In spite of his stubborn stuff. The key is providing him with good players, like every other coach but a couple of genius coaches over the years and maybe not even.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#115 » by Chanel Bomber » Yesterday 4:17 pm

I mean, obviously.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#116 » by HarthorneWingo » Yesterday 4:29 pm

sol537 wrote:Start: Noel (our best defender and a true anchor), Randle, RJ, Fournier, IQ
(let IQ, RJ, and Fournier share in playmaking duties)

Bench: Mitch (until he's traded at the deadline), Obi (get him more back-up "5" minutes for small ball with Randle), Burks, Rose

Buyout/waive Walker

Once we make that simple tweak, we'll grow into a better team than last season even if our standings position ends up lower.


I thought Mitch had a great beginning to the game but then got tired. His first game back.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#117 » by Snacks » Yesterday 6:59 pm

Personally I think the adjustment is obvious. The Knicks need to run the offense through Frenchy.
He has to take more shots and be more involved,
Also he and walker don’t fit. Walker has to be benched for McBride— that won’t happen so I’ll settle for Quick.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#118 » by Handledatruth » Yesterday 8:05 pm

Half mistake. Fournier is fine, he’s just in a slump and trying to figure it out. However, signing Walker knowing you absolutely needed perimeter defense was a horrible move. We would’ve been better off gunning for Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart, or Patrick Beverly types to help bring perimeter defense to the forefront. We were way too focused on being outscored and less about Trae Young dropping 30 and 10 on us during the playoff series. It’s still a head scratcher to me knowing that we have a defensive coach.
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Re: Was it a mistake to bring in Walker and Fournier? 

Post#119 » by Sprewell4Three » Yesterday 10:03 pm

This team is kinda gahbage. Randle doesn’t look good to me and shouldn’t be the main scorer out there. RJ stinks as number 2 option. He’s low key been a bust as a 3rd overall pick. Compare him to Evan Mobley who looks like a future all star. Thibs is not a good coach he overplays Randle and doesn’t give enough minutes to the young guys. Also takes too long to adjust. Randle and Obi should be the lineup at times when teams are up a lot.


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