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PG: We won and I'm upset.

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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#381 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:49 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Just a random thought but Fox to NY seems to be something media thinks could be a good look.. would a package of Mitch Obi and picks be enough to get him? I’d like to keep Obi out of the deal if possible but you gotta give to get

How many inefficient players will it take for the Knicks to realize it's not smart to build around inefficient players?

Fox-RJ-Randle is dreadful in terms of scoring efficiency.

I think the Knicks would be wise to keep IQ and Obi (along with Rose, Burks and Taj for veteran help).


RJ, pick, Burks, 1st rounder, filler, for Fox.

At least there would be speed and finishing at the rim

Speed doesn't exactly fit with Randle though. He can't play or doesn't want to play fast. The Knicks won't play with any sort of pace when he's in the game.
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#382 » by 2010 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:57 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
2010 wrote:
TheGreenArrow wrote:
Yeah we all just need to step back and have some patience!!!!!!!!!!


Damn, fk game-to-game…you flip-flop page-to-page within post game threads.

:lol:


Page to page? It's post to post. :D


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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#383 » by HEZI » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:36 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:How many inefficient players will it take for the Knicks to realize it's not smart to build around inefficient players?

Fox-RJ-Randle is dreadful in terms of scoring efficiency.

I think the Knicks would be wise to keep IQ and Obi (along with Rose, Burks and Taj for veteran help).


RJ, pick, Burks, 1st rounder, filler, for Fox.

At least there would be speed and finishing at the rim

Speed doesn't exactly fit with Randle though. He can't play or doesn't want to play fast. The Knicks won't play with any sort of pace when he's in the game.


I'm not sure what fits with Randle, he's a poor fit with anybody. Last year the crying was about Payton and how he can't shoot. So we went out and got shooting. Now it's he doesn't pass to those shooters we got because he's a selfish ballhog. Pace, he's the slowest on the team and probably in the league. And getting guys to be more on ball while he plays off ball more wont work either because he will sulk like he did when Kemba was doing it earlier. Only time Randle is engaged is when he is the only one touching the ball and shooting the ball and he's not a guy that has any business being THAT guy.

The sooner the FO realizes he needs to go the better
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#384 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:41 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
The real Knick draft fails were:
Frank
Knox

The "not draft fails, but not being elite at drafting" are:
RJ
Obi
Grimes et all.

Because GREAT teams make the move to trade back or get the very best player.
Knicks went from sucking, completely, at drafting, to being average.
But, because the prior regime sh*t the bed so badly with Frank and Knox, the next ones needed to completely knock it out of the park with the drafts that produced RJ, Obi, Grimes. Those drafts are solid, but unspectacular. Which is unfortunate, since Knicks needed to draft at an elite level to make up for those two complete and utter busts.
Got to start somewhere. I guess "drafting ok" is an ok place to start.


I don’t think you can really include Grimes in there since he was selected in the late 1st, where the others were top 10 picks. Out of 4 top 10 picks in 2017 2018 2019 and 2020 you hope to get at least 1 all star out of the deal or at least nba caliber players. We got 2 outrights busts, a struggling regressing project with limited athleticism, and a 23 y/o old spark role player, none of which even made an all rookie team. Toppin’s probably been the best of the bunch at this point despite his career high is 14 points but I still feel better about that pick right now than No-J.

They did scoop up some other value with Mitch and IQ who look like NBA level players at least, maybe McBride or Jokubaitis or Sims become viable role players. Grimes doesn’t play enough to really formulate an opinion yet


I put Grimes in there because better guys went later. Again, I think RJ and Obi are solid enough as players, since every team could use a Evan Turner or Larry Nance Jr, but they aren't knock it out of the park picks. Which the Knicks needed after Frankenknox, since that was so awful.

My main point is after failing so completely on those two, that they needed to wildly win the next few drafts, which for RJ would be having some insanely prescient vibe he'd only be "ok" and trading back and getting additional draft capital and doing something like...anything. Herro and Jaxxon Hayes. Anything to make up for the prior losses. And Obi is fine and IQ are fine, but better players were available in both instances. Again, the need to knock it out of the park, which almost no one ever does, but the Knicks NEVER do.


But Obi is on another level athletically compared to RJ and has IMO a much higher ceiling on both ends of the court. Obi’s also made huge strides this season improving his game. Look at his ability to finish around the rim and compare that to RJ’s inability to finish. Obi also provides excellent weak-side rim protection. RJ doesn’t, though he has played some excellent defense at times this season.
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#385 » by B8RcDeMktfxC » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:30 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
I don’t think you can really include Grimes in there since he was selected in the late 1st, where the others were top 10 picks. Out of 4 top 10 picks in 2017 2018 2019 and 2020 you hope to get at least 1 all star out of the deal or at least nba caliber players. We got 2 outrights busts, a struggling regressing project with limited athleticism, and a 23 y/o old spark role player, none of which even made an all rookie team. Toppin’s probably been the best of the bunch at this point despite his career high is 14 points but I still feel better about that pick right now than No-J.

They did scoop up some other value with Mitch and IQ who look like NBA level players at least, maybe McBride or Jokubaitis or Sims become viable role players. Grimes doesn’t play enough to really formulate an opinion yet


I put Grimes in there because better guys went later. Again, I think RJ and Obi are solid enough as players, since every team could use a Evan Turner or Larry Nance Jr, but they aren't knock it out of the park picks. Which the Knicks needed after Frankenknox, since that was so awful.

My main point is after failing so completely on those two, that they needed to wildly win the next few drafts, which for RJ would be having some insanely prescient vibe he'd only be "ok" and trading back and getting additional draft capital and doing something like...anything. Herro and Jaxxon Hayes. Anything to make up for the prior losses. And Obi is fine and IQ are fine, but better players were available in both instances. Again, the need to knock it out of the park, which almost no one ever does, but the Knicks NEVER do.


But Obi is on another level athletically compared to RJ and has IMO a much higher ceiling on both ends of the court. Obi’s also made huge strides this season improving his game. Look at his ability to finish around the rim and compare that to RJ’s inability to finish. Obi also provides excellent weak-side rim protection. RJ doesn’t, though he has played some excellent defense at times this season.

You are all nuts and in denial over how badly the Knicks development of draftees is **** up. Frank is transparently by far the best of the players mentioned in tbm's posts. Both for current value - after lol-15 games with the Mavs - and for future potential.
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#386 » by F N 11 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:38 pm

I got caught up in Randle talk. Forgot about how good our two young guys were.



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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#387 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:43 pm

HEZI wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
RJ, pick, Burks, 1st rounder, filler, for Fox.

At least there would be speed and finishing at the rim

Speed doesn't exactly fit with Randle though. He can't play or doesn't want to play fast. The Knicks won't play with any sort of pace when he's in the game.


I'm not sure what fits with Randle, he's a poor fit with anybody. Last year the crying was about Payton and how he can't shoot. So we went out and got shooting. Now it's he doesn't pass to those shooters we got because he's a selfish ballhog. Pace, he's the slowest on the team and probably in the league. And getting guys to be more on ball while he plays off ball more wont work either because he will sulk like he did when Kemba was doing it earlier. Only time Randle is engaged is when he is the only one touching the ball and shooting the ball and he's not a guy that has any business being THAT guy.

The sooner the FO realizes he needs to go the better

I agree.

It's a shame because when he plays fast and lets the game come to him he's legitimately a good player.

I wonder if the year he spent in New Orleans with Payton - where they were allowed to shamelessly stat pad for weeks at the expense of the team - did irreparable damage to his game. Because you can see him revert to that guy in the middle of games - where absolutely nothing calls for it.

When he plays with Rose (our best player), the Knicks actually have a +8.3 net rating in 197 minutes. And I think one of the reasons (besides the fact that Randle is surrounded by better players when sharing the court with bench guys) is that he's more willing to let Rose initiate. When he plays PNR as the screener and makes a quick decision off the catch, he's much more efficient. I don't know why he's not willing to play fast with the starting unit - maybe to assert himself as the guy, or because he doesn't trust his teammates.

One of the reasons Karl Malone was so great even in his mid-30s was how quick every play he made was. His post-ups and his jumpers off the pick-and-pop were incisive. His passes were instantaneous. He just didn't waste time. Of course Julius doesn't possess half the talent that Malone had, but if he were as spontaneous on the court as Malone (as he's shown flashes) he would be a much more impactful player.

In any case, I agree that the FO should probably move on. People say his deal is a bargain for an All-NBA player - well I view him more as a 6th man or a third option on a contender, and that's the point of view from which I look at his contract.
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#388 » by Clyde_Style » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:49 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
Gravy wrote:TheGreenArrow could be a parody account that represents the wild emotional extremes and erratic nature of sports fanbases. At least thats how I like to read his posts :lol:


I've been a parody of myself for a while now.


Things really went downhill after you switched from hillbilly situationist apologetics to anarcho-syndicalist camp
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#389 » by prophet_of_rage » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:04 am

HEZI wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
RJ, pick, Burks, 1st rounder, filler, for Fox.

At least there would be speed and finishing at the rim

Speed doesn't exactly fit with Randle though. He can't play or doesn't want to play fast. The Knicks won't play with any sort of pace when he's in the game.


I'm not sure what fits with Randle, he's a poor fit with anybody. Last year the crying was about Payton and how he can't shoot. So we went out and got shooting. Now it's he doesn't pass to those shooters we got because he's a selfish ballhog. Pace, he's the slowest on the team and probably in the league. And getting guys to be more on ball while he plays off ball more wont work either because he will sulk like he did when Kemba was doing it earlier. Only time Randle is engaged is when he is the only one touching the ball and shooting the ball and he's not a guy that has any business being THAT guy.

The sooner the FO realizes he needs to go the better
Interior finisher/defender ... Randle likes to drive hard and dish
Pick and pop partner ... shooter/driver
Two spot up snipers who can put the ball on the floor

It isn't actually difficult to find the roles.

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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#390 » by Chanel Bomber » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:19 am

prophet_of_rage wrote:
HEZI wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:Speed doesn't exactly fit with Randle though. He can't play or doesn't want to play fast. The Knicks won't play with any sort of pace when he's in the game.


I'm not sure what fits with Randle, he's a poor fit with anybody. Last year the crying was about Payton and how he can't shoot. So we went out and got shooting. Now it's he doesn't pass to those shooters we got because he's a selfish ballhog. Pace, he's the slowest on the team and probably in the league. And getting guys to be more on ball while he plays off ball more wont work either because he will sulk like he did when Kemba was doing it earlier. Only time Randle is engaged is when he is the only one touching the ball and shooting the ball and he's not a guy that has any business being THAT guy.

The sooner the FO realizes he needs to go the better
Interior finisher/defender ... Randle likes to drive hard and dish
Pick and pop partner ... shooter/driver
Two spot up snipers who can put the ball on the floor

It isn't actually difficult to find the roles.

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Who are the players though?

You're describing Ayton, Dame and some combination of Hield, Mikal or Bogdanovic as your snipers.

I don't think that team contends for a chip. And I don't know how the Knicks manage to bring in this caliber of players with the assets they have.

PS Fournier and Burks in theory fit the description of good shooters who can put the ball on the floor. Mitch is a defender/finisher. We miss the offensive engine though.
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#391 » by Adelheid » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:43 am

randle, from what i remember, idolizes kobe
so he must be molding his game to look like kobe's, even down to slowing down the pace of the game

a hell lot of kobe's attacks is him posting up on the low block and doing a fadeaway
julius does that too but his efficiency is very much hit or miss
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#392 » by prophet_of_rage » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:23 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
HEZI wrote:
I'm not sure what fits with Randle, he's a poor fit with anybody. Last year the crying was about Payton and how he can't shoot. So we went out and got shooting. Now it's he doesn't pass to those shooters we got because he's a selfish ballhog. Pace, he's the slowest on the team and probably in the league. And getting guys to be more on ball while he plays off ball more wont work either because he will sulk like he did when Kemba was doing it earlier. Only time Randle is engaged is when he is the only one touching the ball and shooting the ball and he's not a guy that has any business being THAT guy.

The sooner the FO realizes he needs to go the better
Interior finisher/defender ... Randle likes to drive hard and dish
Pick and pop partner ... shooter/driver
Two spot up snipers who can put the ball on the floor

It isn't actually difficult to find the roles.

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Who are the players though?

You're describing Ayton, Dame and some combination of Hield, Mikal or Bogdanovic as your snipers.

I don't think that team contends for a chip. And I don't know how the Knicks manage to bring in this caliber of players with the assets they have.

PS Fournier and Burks in theory fit the description of good shooters who can put the ball on the floor. Mitch is a defender/finisher. We miss the offensive engine though.
A Myles Turner would work just fine
Fournier and Burks would be fine as your wing shooters
Now you need another star. Probably a star wing.

What you are saying ultimately is that the Knicks aren't talented enough to compete and Randle is irrelevsnt to tgat.

I agree.

Therefore it's a waste of time handwringing about Randle when the Knicks are actually just trying to sell tickets and eventually get better players.

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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#393 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:24 am

Don’t be upset. The Rockets beat the Bulls tonight.
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#394 » by robillionaire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:13 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:Don’t be upset. The Rockets beat the Bulls tonight.


But we lost to the bulls so that means we lost to the rockets too. That’s how it works right?

The bulls are a treadmill team. New Orlando Magic Chicago edition. We took Fournier and they took Vucevic.
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#395 » by Meat » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:38 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:How many inefficient players will it take for the Knicks to realize it's not smart to build around inefficient players?

Fox-RJ-Randle is dreadful in terms of scoring efficiency.

I think the Knicks would be wise to keep IQ and Obi (along with Rose, Burks and Taj for veteran help).


RJ, pick, Burks, 1st rounder, filler, for Fox.

At least there would be speed and finishing at the rim

Speed doesn't exactly fit with Randle though. He can't play or doesn't want to play fast. The Knicks won't play with any sort of pace when he's in the game.

who cares what randle wants, he's a 3rd option. dont build teams around 3rd options
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#396 » by 2010 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:43 am

HEZI wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:
RJ, pick, Burks, 1st rounder, filler, for Fox.

At least there would be speed and finishing at the rim

Speed doesn't exactly fit with Randle though. He can't play or doesn't want to play fast. The Knicks won't play with any sort of pace when he's in the game.


I'm not sure what fits with Randle, he's a poor fit with anybody. Last year the crying was about Payton and how he can't shoot. So we went out and got shooting. Now it's he doesn't pass to those shooters we got because he's a selfish ballhog. Pace, he's the slowest on the team and probably in the league. And getting guys to be more on ball while he plays off ball more wont work either because he will sulk like he did when Kemba was doing it earlier. Only time Randle is engaged is when he is the only one touching the ball and shooting the ball and he's not a guy that has any business being THAT guy.

The sooner the FO realizes he needs to go the better


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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#397 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:48 am

F N 11 wrote:I got caught up in Randle talk. Forgot about how good our two young guys were.





They are our The Dynamic Duo coming off the bench for us.
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#398 » by KnicksGod » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:33 pm

robillionaire wrote:
KnixtapeH20 wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:All I hear is how we would be worse without Randle -- and you know what, I'm not even contesting that exactly. But I'll point out that it feels pretty regular that Randle exits, Obi enters, and the team starts scoring more than the other team and closing the gap or expanding the lead.

And the advanced stats seem to agree right?

So yeah Randle is the best scorer on the team statistically and eye test and all that, but is he necessary for winning? That seems to be a different question, although what usually happens is that with a bigger sample size, the scrappier and less talented (offensively) players tend to start coming back to earth.

The counter to that counter, though, is that Obi is showing signs of being a pretty talented offensive player. It's just not 1 on 1 or shooting yet, big things, but he's not Mitch or Noel out there.

Could be a combination of Randle plays against starters. Teams generally mirror sitting their starters with the opposing team. Especially their star player


Not only that but he plays with Brickemba and Fournier and RJ who have been historically bad for the last dozen games while the bench has Rose Burks and IQ who have been much better than the 3 I mentioned. A bunch of plus minus stats don’t prove he’s better and again I would love to swap their roles for a couple games just to show how silly this narrative is


It's not that silly though. Do you want consider JR a smart player with intangibles to his game?
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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#399 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:14 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
F N 11 wrote:I got caught up in Randle talk. Forgot about how good our two young guys were.





They are our The Dynamic Duo coming off the bench for us.


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Re: PG: We won and I'm upset. 

Post#400 » by robillionaire » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:24 pm

KnicksGod wrote:
robillionaire wrote:
KnixtapeH20 wrote:Could be a combination of Randle plays against starters. Teams generally mirror sitting their starters with the opposing team. Especially their star player


Not only that but he plays with Brickemba and Fournier and RJ who have been historically bad for the last dozen games while the bench has Rose Burks and IQ who have been much better than the 3 I mentioned. A bunch of plus minus stats don’t prove he’s better and again I would love to swap their roles for a couple games just to show how silly this narrative is


It's not that silly though. Do you want consider JR a smart player with intangibles to his game?


he leads the team in points rebounds and assists find someone else to do intangibles he's out here doing tangibles

in fact we have the best "intangibles" players ever (nerlens) and most people here don't like him either

we only like flash and sizzle and only for players we drafted with babyfaces

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