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Which of our players are assets / which are not?

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Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#1 » by Hatrick Ewing » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:34 am

In the event that the Knicks wanted to rebuild, or at least restructure their roster if the season continues to be disappointing, which of our players would be assets? I still think players like Randle, Noel, Burks and Rose would net a decent return. Besides for Fournier, who has been playing like a drunken sailor eating rotten horse custard, I don't think anyone on this team has negative value, which I suppose counts in the favor of the FO. Thots?
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#2 » by Besart19 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:24 am

1st tiers

Rose
Burks
Grimes
Toppin
Randle


2nd tiers

McBride
Quickley
Barrett
Gibson
Robinson


0 value

Walker
Fournier
Knox
Samanic
Noel

Mitch is flirting into the 0 value zone
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#3 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:32 am

IB4TL

Trades and Transactions Thread
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#4 » by TexasMassacre » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:50 am

Hoo roo.

Walker has less trade value than me left nut.

Randle and Rose probably the highest trade value aye.

Keep Rose, IQ, Obi, Grimey, McBride and RJ (young blokes with potential). Everyone else can go sink a frothy at the trade table.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#5 » by TBri1974 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:12 pm

Besart19 wrote:1st tiers

Rose
Burks
Grimes
Toppin
Randle


2nd tiers

McBride
Quickley
Barrett
Gibson
Robinson


0 value

Walker
Fournier
Knox
Samanic
Noel

Mitch is flirting into the 0 value zone


My Take:

1st Tier:
Barrett

2nd Tier:
IQ
Toppin
Randle

3rd Tier:
Rose
Grimes
McBride
Robinson
Noel

4th tier
Gibson
Burks

0 value
Walker
Fournier
Knox
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#6 » by SuperflyKnick » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:02 pm

There isn’t a horrible contract on the knicks and could definitely be moved for larger similar deal elsewhere…. Even walker after this season is expiring …..Players like Gibson , have more value to knicks then anyone else
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#7 » by thebuzzardman » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:29 pm

Wow. I don't know how to define tiers because there are some players who are good, like Randle, who is now expensive. Yet there is Noel, who is "ok" but who isn't.

I'll take a stab at it.

Players the Knicks could be able to trade and some teams might actually want:

Burks/Noel/Rose/Mitch - a lot of teams, particularly playoff teams, could use the mentioned players. For the BNR group, next year is more likely because a playoff team could "add a piece" yet not have a commitment after that. Also, as expiring deals next year, that opens more possible teams, 3 way trades etc.

Young Knicks the Knicks could trade:

IQ\Obi\RJ\Mitch - have proven to have X kind of NBA value. I'm not going to debate what that is; most GM's will have a mostly accurate picture of their pros and cons. The key, IF Knicks were to trade any of them, is to find the GM who needs what one of them offers more, or values it a little higher, etc. All basically role players, but still possess possible upside (Mitch's nearly gone, RJ's shrinking)

Who knows:
Grimes\McBride\Simms - teams will have scouted them prior to the draft, but hard to say what Knicks would get back. Let's assume whatever predraft shine they had they still retain, so there are some buyers.

Who cares: Knox, Taj - Knox sucks, Taj isn't leaving Thibs/NYC

Good luck with that: Randle/Fournier/Kemba - Kemba is basically washed. Maybe next year at the deadline a playoff team with a guard depth problem might give up a 2nd rounder. Randle and Fournier are among the more talented Knicks but the contracts now make them hard to trade. Not impossible, just not easy.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#8 » by Iron Mantis » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:09 pm

TBri1974 wrote:
Besart19 wrote:1st tiers

Rose
Burks
Grimes
Toppin
Randle


2nd tiers

McBride
Quickley
Barrett
Gibson
Robinson


0 value

Walker
Fournier
Knox
Samanic
Noel

Mitch is flirting into the 0 value zone


My Take:

1st Tier:
Barrett

2nd Tier:
IQ
Toppin
Randle

3rd Tier:
Rose
Grimes
McBride
Robinson
Noel

4th tier
Gibson
Burks

0 value
Walker
Fournier
Knox

This is accurate when based on the sum of age/potential, health, performance/contract.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#9 » by nedleeds » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:26 pm

I think some of you forget the NBA is a salary cap league with no ability to cut a player and get them off your books like football.

Positive Value

++ IQ (even with some rough games and a donkey as a coach, slightly above average league TS, young works hard, competes on defense. I think his floor is back up PG. Ceiling is All Star starter. Makes $2.3 then $4.1 which is a steal for a rotation guard)
+ Obi (I think now that his floor is at least a playable bench big, makes $5.3 then $6.8 ... certainly reasonable, good character guy)
+ Grimes (late 1st, under contract, teams could assume we're terrible at player development)
+ RJ (Makes $11 million next year, which for his efficiency is very bad but you could see him being better with a coach and he's shown enough good shooting stretches to make you think he's not broken. Athletic ceiling is pretty low. Good character kid, says all the right things, works hard.)
+ Derrick Rose (Assuming he's healthy a finals competitive team could really use him. $14.5 next year isn't great, but the following year is a team option)

Neutral Value (eye of the beholder types who could have positive value to certain teams, or if a competitive team has an injury)

Mitch
Burks
Noel
Taj
Any young 2nd rounder (Sims, McBride)

Negative Value

-- Walker (utter parking cone on defense, knee is just waiting to explode, $9.1 guarantee next year is just absurd)
- Fournier ($20 million for 2 *more* years then a team option. Double Burks for basically Burks ... why?)
- Randle (3rd or 4th best player on a competitive team, or ideally a 6th man on a finals team like a rich man's Bobby Portis for the Bucks last year. Having his worst true shooting season of his career. Thinks he's all nba. Owed over $100 million for nearly 1/2 a decade more. Should quickly become one of the worst 5 contracts in the league.)
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#10 » by BugginOut » Yesterday 5:16 pm

We are the point where people are unironically saying Randle has negative value.

He’s averaging 20/10/5 on a winning team. We need to stop disrespecting our star players. We do this with every player that comes here.

Randle isn’t a superstar, but he is still an allstar and a top 5 PF in the league on a non max contract. A majority of the teams in the league would trade for him at the right price.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#11 » by islanders11040 » Yesterday 6:27 pm

u guys are being too hard on fournier. 20 mil is not a lot anymore. its the equivalent of a 8 mil contract when we traded for melo.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#12 » by nedleeds » Yesterday 7:19 pm

BugginOut wrote:We are the point where people are unironically saying Randle has negative value.

He’s averaging 20/10/5 on a winning team. We need to stop disrespecting our star players. We do this with every player that comes here.

Randle isn’t a superstar, but he is still an allstar and a top 5 PF in the league on a non max contract. A majority of the teams in the league would trade for him at the right price.


I think if you're calling him a star you drank the Leon Rose kool aid. He is below league average efficiency on a .500, 6-8th seed team. 4 1/2 more years for 20% of your cap. If Julius Randle is a star, so is Harrison Barnes and Nic Vucevic.

Regardless, signing him a year early and using a pandemic, empty arena, fake win filled year where he had massive outlier career best shooting from 3 wasn't smart.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#13 » by Are We Ther Yet » Yesterday 7:44 pm

Randle is not a top 5 PF. The Knicks aren't looking to rebuild no matter what happens this year. They are positioning themselves for a disgruntled star trade and FA deals. I hate that plan but... whatever.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#14 » by Nazrmohamed » Yesterday 9:10 pm

nedleeds wrote:I think some of you forget the NBA is a salary cap league with no ability to cut a player and get them off your books like football.

Positive Value

++ IQ (even with some rough games and a donkey as a coach, slightly above average league TS, young works hard, competes on defense. I think his floor is back up PG. Ceiling is All Star starter. Makes $2.3 then $4.1 which is a steal for a rotation guard)
+ Obi (I think now that his floor is at least a playable bench big, makes $5.3 then $6.8 ... certainly reasonable, good character guy)
+ Grimes (late 1st, under contract, teams could assume we're terrible at player development)
+ RJ (Makes $11 million next year, which for his efficiency is very bad but you could see him being better with a coach and he's shown enough good shooting stretches to make you think he's not broken. Athletic ceiling is pretty low. Good character kid, says all the right things, works hard.)
+ Derrick Rose (Assuming he's healthy a finals competitive team could really use him. $14.5 next year isn't great, but the following year is a team option)

Neutral Value (eye of the beholder types who could have positive value to certain teams, or if a competitive team has an injury)

Mitch
Burks
Noel
Taj
Any young 2nd rounder (Sims, McBride)

Negative Value

-- Walker (utter parking cone on defense, knee is just waiting to explode, $9.1 guarantee next year is just absurd)
- Fournier ($20 million for 2 *more* years then a team option. Double Burks for basically Burks ... why?)
- Randle (3rd or 4th best player on a competitive team, or ideally a 6th man on a finals team like a rich man's Bobby Portis for the Bucks last year. Having his worst true shooting season of his career. Thinks he's all nba. Owed over $100 million for nearly 1/2 a decade more. Should quickly become one of the worst 5 contracts in the league.)


Great job on this. I was gonna do my own but I'll just second your effort on this.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#15 » by NoDopeOnSundays » Yesterday 9:51 pm

BugginOut wrote:We are the point where people are unironically saying Randle has negative value.

He’s averaging 20/10/5 on a winning team. We need to stop disrespecting our star players. We do this with every player that comes here.

Randle isn’t a superstar, but he is still an allstar and a top 5 PF in the league on a non max contract. A majority of the teams in the league would trade for him at the right price.




You're getting caught up with defending him from perceived hate, which is honestly just people speaking the truth. Analytics hate his game, he would not be sought after by a majority of the teams in the league because of that, certainly not a majority of the contenders because he's a ball stopper with an inefficient game. He's the 17th most efficient PF in the NBA right now.

That 20/10/5 comes on 42% shooting and an obscene amount of touches, he has the ball in the frontcourt more than KD, LeBron, Giannis, PG13, AD, Beal, Tatum and the list goes on and on. He's no different than David Lee to be honest, a guy that can post stats and people will say "Yeah he's averaging 20/10" and you're just underwhelmed actually watching it.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#16 » by nedleeds » Yesterday 10:21 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
BugginOut wrote:We are the point where people are unironically saying Randle has negative value.

He’s averaging 20/10/5 on a winning team. We need to stop disrespecting our star players. We do this with every player that comes here.

Randle isn’t a superstar, but he is still an allstar and a top 5 PF in the league on a non max contract. A majority of the teams in the league would trade for him at the right price.




You're getting caught up with defending him from perceived hate, which is honestly just people speaking the truth. Analytics hate his game, he would not be sought after by a majority of the teams in the league because of that, certainly not a majority of the contenders because he's a ball stopper with an inefficient game. He's the 17th most efficient PF in the NBA right now.

That 20/10/5 comes on 42% shooting and an obscene amount of touches, he has the ball in the frontcourt more than KD, LeBron, Giannis, PG13, AD, Beal, Tatum and the list goes on and on. He's no different than David Lee to be honest, a guy that can post stats and people will say "Yeah he's averaging 20/10" and you're just underwhelmed actually watching it.


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Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#17 » by BugginOut » Yesterday 10:52 pm

Are We Ther Yet wrote:Randle is not a top 5 PF. The Knicks aren't looking to rebuild no matter what happens this year. They are positioning themselves for a disgruntled star trade and FA deals. I hate that plan but... whatever.

Name 5 PFs that are playing that are better?

What’s the alternative tanking?
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#18 » by BugginOut » Yesterday 10:56 pm

nedleeds wrote:
BugginOut wrote:We are the point where people are unironically saying Randle has negative value.

He’s averaging 20/10/5 on a winning team. We need to stop disrespecting our star players. We do this with every player that comes here.

Randle isn’t a superstar, but he is still an allstar and a top 5 PF in the league on a non max contract. A majority of the teams in the league would trade for him at the right price.


I think if you're calling him a star you drank the Leon Rose kool aid. He is below league average efficiency on a .500, 6-8th seed team. 4 1/2 more years for 20% of your cap. If Julius Randle is a star, so is Harrison Barnes and Nic Vucevic.

Regardless, signing him a year early and using a pandemic, empty arena, fake win filled year where he had massive outlier career best shooting from 3 wasn't smart.

So he is not making an all-star team this year? You want to bet on that?

He’s not a superstar that is clear. But Randle can definitely be a 2nd or 3rd option on a contender.

Shooting is down across the league with the new rule changes and a lot of superstars (Tatum, Beal, SGA, Fox etc) are struggling with their shot. It will probably normalize as the season continues.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#19 » by nedleeds » Today 2:09 am

BugginOut wrote:
nedleeds wrote:
BugginOut wrote:We are the point where people are unironically saying Randle has negative value.

He’s averaging 20/10/5 on a winning team. We need to stop disrespecting our star players. We do this with every player that comes here.

Randle isn’t a superstar, but he is still an allstar and a top 5 PF in the league on a non max contract. A majority of the teams in the league would trade for him at the right price.


I think if you're calling him a star you drank the Leon Rose kool aid. He is below league average efficiency on a .500, 6-8th seed team. 4 1/2 more years for 20% of your cap. If Julius Randle is a star, so is Harrison Barnes and Nic Vucevic.

Regardless, signing him a year early and using a pandemic, empty arena, fake win filled year where he had massive outlier career best shooting from 3 wasn't smart.

So he is not making an all-star team this year? You want to bet on that?

He’s not a superstar that is clear. But Randle can definitely be a 2nd or 3rd option on a contender.

Shooting is down across the league with the new rule changes and a lot of superstars (Tatum, Beal, SGA, Fox etc) are struggling with their shot. It will probably normalize as the season continues.


I could give a shyte if he makes the all star team, fans vote. He's in NY of course he'll make the all star team. Who cares? Jamaal Magloire, Kyle Korver, Shareef Abdul Rahim and Brad Miller made the all-star team. It means nothing.

It has normalized to his career norm. Last year in the empty buildings, that was the outlier. Randle can't be the 2nd option on a contender. He was on a team with Anthony Davis and Jrue Holiday ... they sucked ass. Anthony Davis can be the second best on a championship team. Maybe the Randle could be 3rd best if he can keep his 3P% around 37-39% and try on defense ... like replace Kevin Love with Randle on the Prime Irving / LeFlop cavs. The Suns 3rd best player is Ayton.
Zenzibar wrote:Nevertheless, Payton is not a finished product yet and unless the team moves him in a couple of weeks, I anticipate him trending upward with this coaching staff.
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Re: Which of our players are assets / which are not? 

Post#20 » by TBri1974 » Today 8:56 am

People are harsh.

This team is playing like trash - but the components are individually better than the sum of all its parts. When Randle shoots too much we say he's reverted to the worst version of himself. When he doesn't, he's not aggressive enough as a leader (see John Wallace's comments on today's game). For sure Randle isn't playing as consistently well as last year, but he's the same player, we're just not gelling. If we trade him to a team who can use him effectively, he can make us look like idiots.

This team is down. Not sure what will turn it around - or if it will - but I stick with my comments above. Randle is a deal at that paycheck.

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