Leon Rose is in a no win situation

[thebuzzardman]

RJ, Obi and IQ, if you let them get to a 2nd contract, become overpaid vets, which I'm told is wrong to have on your team without a star. Knicks need to trade them all before their 2nd contracts come up so they can pursue the draft churn process.

[WargamesX]

I think the Knicks have to clear cap space for 2024 and hope a young star comes to play in NY through FA. It’s a risk but what else can they do except hope one forces a trade here? I think that is even less likely.

[hundreth]

Again with the letting youth go to sign overrated vets in FA? Haven't y'all seen the Knicks for the past 20+ years? It baffles me how anyone could be for once again letting youth go at this point. Break the cycle!!

[8516knicks]

When was the last time anyone saw Leon awake? Just sayin'

[FrozenEnvelope]

If Leon Rose and this regime just leaves this franchise with a manageable cap, building block players, a few playoff appearances and no drama, it's an accomplishment. If he leaves the team in cap hell, with long term contracts to fugazi wannabe stars and makes the papers with more dumb ****, he's no better then Isiah, Phil Jackson and Mills.

[Richard4444]

Again with the letting youth go to sign overrated vets in FA? Haven't y'all seen the Knicks for the past 20+ years? It baffles me how anyone could be for once again letting youth go at this point. Break the cycle!!

What youth is leaving? Do you really miss Frank, Knox, and Iggy?

I agree that we rushed the clock and got too many vets past the offseason that took minutes from the youth at the beginning of the season. But for now, we have kept our youth.

Besides, after the trade deadline with Kemba, Rose, and Noel going down, we pretty much played 7 players 24 or younger in the main rotation (RJ, Mitch, IQ, Grimes, Cam, Obi, SIms) and another (Deuce) getting sporadically minutes. And one of the vets is 27 years old.

Burks/IQ (Deuce)
RJ/Grimes
Fournier/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Sims (Taj)

Our main issue is about quality. Our roster (vets and youth) are really not consistently good.

Besides we have a logjam in some positions like PF (Randle taking minutes from Obi) and wings (Burks and Fournier taking minutes from Grimes, IQ, and especially Cam).

[mpharris36]

If Leon Rose and this regime just leaves this franchise with a manageable cap, building block players, a few playoff appearances and no drama, it's an accomplishment. If he leaves the team in cap hell, with long term contracts to fugazi wannabe stars and makes the papers with more dumb ****, he's no better then Isiah, Phil Jackson and Mills.

ehh I would think he has to do way better. His tenure started with a ton of cap space, a lot of draft capital (all our own 1st rounders + others). And he had RJ Barrett already.

If he leaves them the same way that is a failure. Past regimes didn't do well but past regimes also weren't dealt the same hand Leon and Co. were. Most of them either hand unmovable contracts or didn't have draft picks to improve the team.

Leon has had both so the expectations should be higher...so far not so good.

[hundreth]

Again with the letting youth go to sign overrated vets in FA? Haven't y'all seen the Knicks for the past 20+ years? It baffles me how anyone could be for once again letting youth go at this point. Break the cycle!!

What youth is leaving? Do you really miss Frank, Knox, and Iggy?

I agree that we rushed the clock and got too many vets past the offseason that took minutes from the youth at the beginning of the season. But for now, we have kept our youth.

Besides, after the trade deadline with Kemba, Rose, and Noel going down, we pretty much played 7 players 24 or younger in the main rotation (RJ, Mitch, IQ, Grimes, Cam, Obi, SIms) and another (Deuce) getting sporadically minutes. And one of the vets is 27 years old.

Burks/IQ (Deuce)
RJ/Grimes
Fournier/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Sims (Taj)

Our main issue is about quality. Our roster (vets and youth) are really not consistently good.

Besides we have a logjam in some positions like PF (Randle taking minutes from Obi) and wings (Burks and Fournier taking minutes from Grimes, IQ, and especially Cam).

I'd have had no problems keeping Frank. He's a defensive piece who just helped lock down Booker in the playoffs. Good teams have defensive role players like that. To top it off he's home grown, and great friends with RJ.

A very underrated part of team building is consistency and chemistry. Aside from Melo, the Knicks have rarely ever had a core or personality to the team.

In terms of your question of what youth is leaving, some of you proposed trading IQ and RJ so we can attract a "star" in FA. This doesn't work. It has always been our strategy, and it never has worked. If you're going to replace one guy with another, you better be sure they are a direct surefire upgrade. Going from Bullock to Fournier was a step backwards.

[DOT]

If Leon Rose and this regime just leaves this franchise with a manageable cap, building block players, a few playoff appearances and no drama, it's an accomplishment. If he leaves the team in cap hell, with long term contracts to fugazi wannabe stars and makes the papers with more dumb ****, he's no better then Isiah, Phil Jackson and Mills.

ehh I would think he has to do way better. His tenure started with a ton of cap space, a lot of draft capital (all our own 1st rounders + others). And he had RJ Barrett already.

If he leaves them the same way that is a failure. Past regimes didn't do well but past regimes also weren't dealt the same hand Leon and Co. were. Most of them either hand unmovable contracts or didn't have draft picks to improve the team.

Leon has had both so the expectations should be higher...so far not so good.

When Leon took over in 2020, we had two firsts in each of the next two years and a ton of cap space. Randle was our highest paid player at 19 mil, then RJ at 8 mil. Even after Leon signed all his vets and traded for D Rose, Randle and RJ were still our highest paid players

This year, Randle is still our highest paid player, but RJ is our 7th highest paid player. We signed 5 guys to contracts between 8 and 18 million this year. Those 1st rounders turned into Obi, Quick, Grimes, and essentially Cam, all of whom are backups at best behind his prize free agents, none of whom are particularly good

Even if we were to play out this year, decline the team options on the vets, and renounce all their rights, we'd still be 9 mil over the cap in 2023. Granted, we're carrying 45 million in cap holds for RJ and Cam, so if we let them go without taking any salary back, we might be able to afford a max player

I would say Leon has done a pretty poor job of turning the assets he had at the start into production.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Again with the letting youth go to sign overrated vets in FA? Haven't y'all seen the Knicks for the past 20+ years? It baffles me how anyone could be for once again letting youth go at this point. Break the cycle!!

What youth is leaving? Do you really miss Frank, Knox, and Iggy?

I agree that we rushed the clock and got too many vets past the offseason that took minutes from the youth at the beginning of the season. But for now, we have kept our youth.

Besides, after the trade deadline with Kemba, Rose, and Noel going down, we pretty much played 7 players 24 or younger in the main rotation (RJ, Mitch, IQ, Grimes, Cam, Obi, SIms) and another (Deuce) getting sporadically minutes. And one of the vets is 27 years old.

Burks/IQ (Deuce)
RJ/Grimes
Fournier/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Sims (Taj)

Our main issue is about quality. Our roster (vets and youth) are really not consistently good.

Besides we have a logjam in some positions like PF (Randle taking minutes from Obi) and wings (Burks and Fournier taking minutes from Grimes, IQ, and especially Cam).

It took injuries and Covid to get the youth into the rotation and even then....the kids barely played 15 minutes per game. Obi jumped to 17mpg after that late season run. Ridiculous. RJ(34)/Mitch(25)/IQ(23) are the only kids who got any serious minutes for this team last year. Deuce(9)/Cam(14)/Sims(13)? Dotson avg more minutes than Deuce when he was here!

Walker(25)/Rose(24)/Noel(22) all got more minutes than all of the youth except for RJ/Mitch. IQ beat Noel by a minute.

Thibs is trash with minutes distribution/lineups/rotations. He allowed the trash vets to play poorly with zero accountability. This is just a sad reality. It wasn't like there was any good reason for it at all. We weren't winning. The vets weren't playing well. It was a waste of a season and a waste of time. Some of that is on the FO and some of that is just Thibs.

[Richard4444]

Again with the letting youth go to sign overrated vets in FA? Haven't y'all seen the Knicks for the past 20+ years? It baffles me how anyone could be for once again letting youth go at this point. Break the cycle!!

What youth is leaving? Do you really miss Frank, Knox, and Iggy?

I agree that we rushed the clock and got too many vets past the offseason that took minutes from the youth at the beginning of the season. But for now, we have kept our youth.

Besides, after the trade deadline with Kemba, Rose, and Noel going down, we pretty much played 7 players 24 or younger in the main rotation (RJ, Mitch, IQ, Grimes, Cam, Obi, SIms) and another (Deuce) getting sporadically minutes. And one of the vets is 27 years old.

Burks/IQ (Deuce)
RJ/Grimes
Fournier/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Sims (Taj)

Our main issue is about quality. Our roster (vets and youth) are really not consistently good.

Besides we have a logjam in some positions like PF (Randle taking minutes from Obi) and wings (Burks and Fournier taking minutes from Grimes, IQ, and especially Cam).

I'd have had no problems keeping Frank. He's a defensive piece who just helped lock down Booker in the playoffs. Good teams have defensive role players like that. To top it off he's home grown, and great friends with RJ.

A very underrated part of team building is consistency and chemistry. Aside from Melo, the Knicks have rarely ever had a core or personality to the team.

In terms of your question of what youth is leaving, some of you proposed trading IQ and RJ so we can attract a "star" in FA. This doesn't work. It has always been our strategy, and it never has worked. If you're going to replace one guy with another, you better be sure they are a direct surefire upgrade. Going from Bullock to Fournier was a step backwards.

I agree that Fournier was a big failure. We got too many mediocre vets. But we need some vets to teach the younger ones.

Frank is a minimum salary guy with no offense. It was not a big loss. We can get good rotation defenders any time for a few bucks when we get a competitive team. But I would not mind keeping him. The problem is we need a limit of inexperienced players on the roster. We can not develop them all.

Every team sooner or later needs to do consolidation trades. The team can not give enough minutes to all of the young players and they can not pay all of them when their rookie contract expires.

My issue with Donovan trade is that I think it would cost us too many assets because the trade value of all our young players is relatively low due to the lack of consistently good play.

[mpharris36]

If Leon Rose and this regime just leaves this franchise with a manageable cap, building block players, a few playoff appearances and no drama, it's an accomplishment. If he leaves the team in cap hell, with long term contracts to fugazi wannabe stars and makes the papers with more dumb ****, he's no better then Isiah, Phil Jackson and Mills.

ehh I would think he has to do way better. His tenure started with a ton of cap space, a lot of draft capital (all our own 1st rounders + others). And he had RJ Barrett already.

If he leaves them the same way that is a failure. Past regimes didn't do well but past regimes also weren't dealt the same hand Leon and Co. were. Most of them either hand unmovable contracts or didn't have draft picks to improve the team.

Leon has had both so the expectations should be higher...so far not so good.

When Leon took over in 2020, we had two firsts in each of the next two years and a ton of cap space. Randle was our highest paid player at 19 mil, then RJ at 8 mil. Even after Leon signed all his vets and traded for D Rose, Randle and RJ were still our highest paid players

This year, Randle is still our highest paid player, but RJ is our 7th highest paid player. We signed 5 guys to contracts between 8 and 18 million this year. Those 1st rounders turned into Obi, Quick, Grimes, and essentially Cam, all of whom are backups at best behind his prize free agents, none of whom are particularly good

Even if we were to play out this year, decline the team options on the vets, and renounce all their rights, we'd still be 9 mil over the cap in 2023. Granted, we're carrying 45 million in cap holds for RJ and Cam, so if we let them go without taking any salary back, we might be able to afford a max player

I would say Leon has done a pretty poor job of turning the assets he had at the start into production.

Yup and this is no support of prior year regimes because they were a disaster too...just for example Phil Jackson started his tenure here without a 1st round pick in 2 of his 1st 3 years and basically forced to resign Melo...and he was an objective failure.

Leon had no excuses not to do well. He had the best starting point of any executive in recent memory.

[Richard4444]

Again with the letting youth go to sign overrated vets in FA? Haven't y'all seen the Knicks for the past 20+ years? It baffles me how anyone could be for once again letting youth go at this point. Break the cycle!!

What youth is leaving? Do you really miss Frank, Knox, and Iggy?

I agree that we rushed the clock and got too many vets past the offseason that took minutes from the youth at the beginning of the season. But for now, we have kept our youth.

Besides, after the trade deadline with Kemba, Rose, and Noel going down, we pretty much played 7 players 24 or younger in the main rotation (RJ, Mitch, IQ, Grimes, Cam, Obi, SIms) and another (Deuce) getting sporadically minutes. And one of the vets is 27 years old.

Burks/IQ (Deuce)
RJ/Grimes
Fournier/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Sims (Taj)

Our main issue is about quality. Our roster (vets and youth) are really not consistently good.

Besides we have a logjam in some positions like PF (Randle taking minutes from Obi) and wings (Burks and Fournier taking minutes from Grimes, IQ, and especially Cam).

It took injuries and Covid to get the youth into the rotation and even then....the kids barely played 15 minutes per game. Obi jumped to 17mpg after that late season run. Ridiculous. RJ(34)/Mitch(25)/IQ(23) are the only kids who got any serious minutes for this team last year. Deuce(9)/Cam(14)/Sims(13)? Dotson avg more minutes than Deuce when he was here!

Walker(25)/Rose(24)/Noel(22) all got more minutes than all of the youth except for RJ/Mitch. IQ beat Noel by a minute.

Thibs is trash with minutes distribution/lineups/rotations. He allowed the trash vets to play poorly with zero accountability. This is just a sad reality. It wasn't like there was any good reason for it at all. We weren't winning. The vets weren't playing well. It was a waste of a season and a waste of time. Some of that is on the FO and some of that is just Thibs.

I am rooting for Thibs to get fired. He should havemake Randle accountable for his awful shooting. But I am not very hopeful.

But at the beginning of the season IQ and Obi were in a shooting slump and I can not say they deserved too many minutes. At the end of the season, they were really exciting players.

Grimes, Deuce, and Sims were too raw to enter the rotation right away. I think their development is pretty good so far.

I am hopeful the Front Office does not get more mediocre vet help (maybe even get rid of one vet or two) to keep the young players in the rotation with plenty of minutes.

Also, I hope the young players to keep playing well. But I fear they can regress to the mean.

[hundreth]

What youth is leaving? Do you really miss Frank, Knox, and Iggy?

I agree that we rushed the clock and got too many vets past the offseason that took minutes from the youth at the beginning of the season. But for now, we have kept our youth.

Besides, after the trade deadline with Kemba, Rose, and Noel going down, we pretty much played 7 players 24 or younger in the main rotation (RJ, Mitch, IQ, Grimes, Cam, Obi, SIms) and another (Deuce) getting sporadically minutes. And one of the vets is 27 years old.

Burks/IQ (Deuce)
RJ/Grimes
Fournier/Cam
Randle/Obi
Mitch/Sims (Taj)

Our main issue is about quality. Our roster (vets and youth) are really not consistently good.

Besides we have a logjam in some positions like PF (Randle taking minutes from Obi) and wings (Burks and Fournier taking minutes from Grimes, IQ, and especially Cam).

I'd have had no problems keeping Frank. He's a defensive piece who just helped lock down Booker in the playoffs. Good teams have defensive role players like that. To top it off he's home grown, and great friends with RJ.

A very underrated part of team building is consistency and chemistry. Aside from Melo, the Knicks have rarely ever had a core or personality to the team.

In terms of your question of what youth is leaving, some of you proposed trading IQ and RJ so we can attract a "star" in FA. This doesn't work. It has always been our strategy, and it never has worked. If you're going to replace one guy with another, you better be sure they are a direct surefire upgrade. Going from Bullock to Fournier was a step backwards.

I agree that Fournier was a big failure. We got too many mediocre vets. But we need some vets to teach the younger ones.

Frank is a minimum salary guy with no offense. It was not a big loss. We can get good rotation defenders any time for a few bucks when we get a competitive team. But I would not mind keeping him. The problem is we need a limit of inexperienced players on the roster. We can not develop them all.

Every team sooner or later needs to do consolidation trades. The team can not give enough minutes to all of the young players and they can not pay all of them when their rookie contract expires.

My issue with Donovan trade is that I think it would cost us too many assets because the trade value of all our young players is relatively low due to the lack of consistently good play.

Sure, you do those consolidation trades - but you better make sure they're going to net you a better player. For example any combination of IQ or RJ in a trade for Donovan is a bad trade. Its like you said, we would be selling low. This is how we treat all our players, we bury them behind mediocre vets and then trade them for pennies on the dollar.

Even if RJ or IQ don't turn out to be stars, they are good players who have been here. Let's ride with them and slowly add quality pieces. Eventually we'll be in a position to make some meaningful acquisitions. Now isn't the time.

Once we establish a culture with foundational pieces, everything will fall into place.

[KnicksGadfly]

Damn y’all know Leon Rose is hoping he gets compared to Phil and Isiah as opposed to his peers.

[KNICKS007]

I'd have had no problems keeping Frank. He's a defensive piece who just helped lock down Booker in the playoffs. Good teams have defensive role players like that. To top it off he's home grown, and great friends with RJ.

A very underrated part of team building is consistency and chemistry. Aside from Melo, the Knicks have rarely ever had a core or personality to the team.

In terms of your question of what youth is leaving, some of you proposed trading IQ and RJ so we can attract a "star" in FA. This doesn't work. It has always been our strategy, and it never has worked. If you're going to replace one guy with another, you better be sure they are a direct surefire upgrade. Going from Bullock to Fournier was a step backwards.

I agree that Fournier was a big failure. We got too many mediocre vets. But we need some vets to teach the younger ones.

Frank is a minimum salary guy with no offense. It was not a big loss. We can get good rotation defenders any time for a few bucks when we get a competitive team. But I would not mind keeping him. The problem is we need a limit of inexperienced players on the roster. We can not develop them all.

Every team sooner or later needs to do consolidation trades. The team can not give enough minutes to all of the young players and they can not pay all of them when their rookie contract expires.

My issue with Donovan trade is that I think it would cost us too many assets because the trade value of all our young players is relatively low due to the lack of consistently good play.

Sure, you do those consolidation trades - but you better make sure they're going to net you a better player. For example any combination of IQ or RJ in a trade for Donovan is a bad trade. Its like you said, we would be selling low. This is how we treat all our players, we bury them behind mediocre vets and then trade them for pennies on the dollar.

Even if RJ or IQ don't turn out to be stars, they are good players who have been here. Let's ride with them and slowly add quality pieces. Eventually we'll be in a position to make some meaningful acquisitions. Now isn't the time.

Once we establish a culture with foundational pieces, everything will fall into place.

You have to ask yourself when was the last time the knicks drafted a star regardless to where they pick.

The knicks draft projects, or the wrong player altogether like FRANK, Like OBI, Like RJ.

If we had a top pick this yr, this stupid ass franchise that I love would Draft Jabari Smith or Ivey even though they have Randle OBI, RJ, and 3 other wings and PF.

Fans that care more about home grown talent then winning a championship are just Homers that watch knicks games only, and think our talent should be amongst the the best of them, and overrated them until it's flat out laughable.

Nothing about franks game has changed since he's been with Dallas, they only need him for few minutes, unlike the knicks who don't have a super star guard to take the scoring load off everybody.

THJ was receiving the same treatment Randle was getting because some knick fans were expecting him to play above and beyond his talent level ( in a triangle to boot)...Dallas fans have never treated THJ that way

There are KNICK FANS that would rather sit through losing season after losing season as long as we keep the guys we drafted, they would prefer to get rid of any veteran that isn't a SUPER STAR, to watch a young role player who flat out sucks and get everyone fired

We have a FO that is scared to death to make a blocker buster trade using their assets, A front office that would rather draft a talented player they don't need as oppose to a decent player that fills a need, and fits like a glove into our system and rotation.

It was LEON ROSE AND WES who didn't hold RANDLE accountable, not Thibs, they paid his fines and excused him from talking to the Media.

There Isn't a single Big on this Roster thats better than Randle, so fans want THIBS to sit Randle for OBI who's no where near better.

[Starks]

Once again, the only way is going for high draft picks, Hinkie style.

Play the young guys, lose a lot of games, try and get a decent pick. Repeat.

Almost all current top teams' major players have been drafted:

Doncic
Booker / Ayton
Curry / Klay / Green
Morant / JJJ
Tatum / Brown
Adebayo / Herro
Embiid / Maxey
Giannis...

No quick fix please, no Mitchell. Knicks fans are going to be mad no matter the scenario anyway, might as well make it a bit fun and instill hope cultivating our youth.

[WargamesX]

I think Leon’s biggest problem is he’s tied to Thibs as the HC. The fact that we all know the Thibs rules to winning games and managing rotations means he is too predictable and opponents can game plan for him. I think a more modern coach gets more out of these players. The only thing I do give him credit for is getting the rookies to learn NBA player winning habits. When they move on from him the next coach will have some dogs to work with.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Once again, the only way is going for high draft picks, Hinkie style.

Play the young guys, lose a lot of games, try and get a decent pick. Repeat.

Almost all current top teams' major players have been drafted:

Doncic
Booker / Ayton
Curry / Klay / Green
Morant / JJJ
Tatum / Brown
Adebayo / Herro
Embiid / Maxey
Giannis...

No quick fix please, no Mitchell. Knicks fans are going to be mad no matter the scenario anyway, might as well make it a bit fun and instill hope cultivating our youth.

Just have to keep taking swings in the high lottery and focus on youth until you hit on a few and have something.

[Jalen Bluntson]

I agree that Fournier was a big failure. We got too many mediocre vets. But we need some vets to teach the younger ones.

Frank is a minimum salary guy with no offense. It was not a big loss. We can get good rotation defenders any time for a few bucks when we get a competitive team. But I would not mind keeping him. The problem is we need a limit of inexperienced players on the roster. We can not develop them all.

Every team sooner or later needs to do consolidation trades. The team can not give enough minutes to all of the young players and they can not pay all of them when their rookie contract expires.

My issue with Donovan trade is that I think it would cost us too many assets because the trade value of all our young players is relatively low due to the lack of consistently good play.

Sure, you do those consolidation trades - but you better make sure they're going to net you a better player. For example any combination of IQ or RJ in a trade for Donovan is a bad trade. Its like you said, we would be selling low. This is how we treat all our players, we bury them behind mediocre vets and then trade them for pennies on the dollar.

Even if RJ or IQ don't turn out to be stars, they are good players who have been here. Let's ride with them and slowly add quality pieces. Eventually we'll be in a position to make some meaningful acquisitions. Now isn't the time.

Once we establish a culture with foundational pieces, everything will fall into place.

You have to ask yourself when was the last time the knicks drafted a star regardless to where they pick.

The knicks draft projects, or the wrong player altogether like FRANK, Like OBI, Like RJ.

If we had a top pick this yr, this stupid ass franchise that I love would Draft Jabari Smith or Ivey even though they have Randle OBI, RJ, and 3 other wings and PF.

Fans that care more about home grown talent then winning a championship are just Homers that watch knicks games only, and think our talent should be amongst the the best of them, and overrated them until it's flat out laughable.

Nothing about franks game has changed since he's been with Dallas, they only need him for few minutes, unlike the knicks who don't have a super star guard to take the scoring load off everybody.

THJ was receiving the same treatment Randle was getting because some knick fans were expecting him to play above and beyond his talent level ( in a triangle to boot)...Dallas fans have never treated THJ that way

There are KNICK FANS that would rather sit through losing season after losing season as long as we keep the guys we drafted, they would prefer to get rid of any veteran that isn't a SUPER STAR, to watch a young role player who flat out sucks and get everyone fired

We have a FO that is scared to death to make a blocker buster trade using their assets, A front office that would rather draft a talented player they don't need as oppose to a decent player that fills a need, and fits like a glove into our system and rotation.

It was LEON ROSE AND WES who didn't hold RANDLE accountable, not Thibs, they paid his fines and excused him from talking to the Media.

There Isn't a single Big on this Roster thats better than Randle, so fans want THIBS to sit Randle for OBI who's no where near better.

Nonsense. Randle gave zero effort on defense ALL YEAR. Obi was called the backup QB. Randle was allowed to behave however he wanted ON THE COURT. That's on Thibs. He's also just a stat stuffing slob with a low BBIQ and he thinks he's LeBron. It Derrick Rose who elevated this team to the 4 seed. Not Randle. Julius would be a bench player on a contender.