Mitchell Robinsons importance on our team, was it impactful or minimal?

[Kampuchea]

Get rid of him, trade for a late pick next year. His FT rate is garbage and he can’t do anything outside of the paint

[HarthorneWingo]

For me here's the question with Mitch, which I believe I asked HEZI a few months ago during a debate about him.

All the advanced impact metrics and basic team-based statistics unequivocally paint Mitch as our most impactful starter this past season. The statistical evidence is so overwhelming that it cannot be ignored, in my opinion.

Yet, there are legitimate questions about his game.

So, is Mitch a "good" player, or is he simply the least damaging of our starters, who sucked this year?

Does he rank #1 across the (statistical) board among our starters because the bar is so low, or because he's actually impactful within the bigger NBA picture?

Until proven otherwise, We’ve seen enough of Mitch around the basket on offense to know that he has a decent touch within 3 feet. He’s hit bank shots and reverse layups where he’s shown a decent touch. I see no reason why he can’t hit a turnaround baby jump hook in the lane. It’s Thibs’s fault for refusing to pull that stick out of his own ass. Not Mitch’s.

The reason he doesn't get the ball is because he has no moves, and you can just foul him and it acts like a turnover. This isn't some Shaq level interior player, giving post touches to someone who shoots 49% from the line is essentially a turnover, if you think he's going to score just foul him and he'll miss more than 1/2 of all foul shots over the course of a game.

Dwight Howard in his prime wasn't even getting the ball like that and he might as well be Hakeem in the post if we're comparing him to Mitch. You all keep waiting for this skillfull player to appear, all while his freethrow percentage declines from year to year.

I know. I get it. I’m disappointed in Mitch’s decline in his FT shooting. I think that his foot injury prevented him from practicing last summer. I have to assume that the Knicks coaching staff is working on that with him as we speak. I mean, how can they not, right?

Why isn’t PPP stat convincing enough for you?

[islanders11040]

Robert Williams looked pretty impactful with his offensive rebounding and rim protection today. 2 things Mitch excels at.

[HarthorneWingo]

Why do we have 2 Mitch threads?

Because James Dolan sucks!

[GIMME_DATT]

Robert Williams looked pretty impactful with his offensive rebounding and rim protection today. 2 things Mitch excels at.

He's a superior player to robinson

[KnixtapeH20]

Since his fist season his blocks and his FT% have both gone way down. He averaged 8.5 or so on both rebs and pts last year. He's had 4 years to develop a shot and hasn't. Gotta believe we can do better.

His first couple seasons he was primary a block and lob specialist. Gunning for blocks and getting into foul trouble in the process.

Then he learned how to rebound and became dominant in post defense and covering for every player on the team.

That doesn't explain his FT going from 60% to under 50%.

He prolly doesn't know his own strength with the new muscle combined with his form and never being a good free throw shooter.

Has to work on his shooting this off season. We'll see. He got better as the season ended in spots

[KnixtapeH20]

Robert Williams looked pretty impactful with his offensive rebounding and rim protection today. 2 things Mitch excels at.

He's a superior player to robinson

Oh please cut it out its not apples to oranges. They do the same things

[bearadonisdna]

Why do we have 2 Mitch threads?

I wanted to see where everyone stood and got called out lol

Watch on YouTube

[Knicksfan1992]

Mitch is a very perplexing player IMO. The defensive metrics love him yet his on/off hasn't been great for 2 seasons now. He ebbs and flows on that end too. He'll have a dominant week and then a bad 2 weeks following that. Inconsistency in pretty much every aspect of basketball has kind of been the story of his career so far. I don't love betting on guys like that long term especially at such an important defensive position.

I will say his offensive rebounding has probably become our best source of offense and is what will get him paid the most. He might be the best offensive rebounder in the league and he has pretty good touch around the basket even though he's a horrible shooter.

He's just really bizarre. I don't like his defense as much as others because he still gets baited into stupid fouls 4 years in, can't really switch anymore because he didn't take his offseason seriously and gained bad weight and he's not nearly the vertical athlete he once was. He hasn't added 1 new dimension to his game since he's entered the league.

If we had a better roster construction I would honestly let him walk and draft Williams or Duren but this team needs wings desperately and can't afford to let a decent asset walk through the door and spend a lottery pick on his replacement.

Overall I think he's a pretty neutral impact who has the potential to really hurt you if he's having one of his "bad games or weeks"

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Until proven otherwise, We’ve seen enough of Mitch around the basket on offense to know that he has a decent touch within 3 feet. He’s hit bank shots and reverse layups where he’s shown a decent touch. I see no reason why he can’t hit a turnaround baby jump hook in the lane. It’s Thibs’s fault for refusing to pull that stick out of his own ass. Not Mitch’s.

The reason he doesn't get the ball is because he has no moves, and you can just foul him and it acts like a turnover. This isn't some Shaq level interior player, giving post touches to someone who shoots 49% from the line is essentially a turnover, if you think he's going to score just foul him and he'll miss more than 1/2 of all foul shots over the course of a game.

Dwight Howard in his prime wasn't even getting the ball like that and he might as well be Hakeem in the post if we're comparing him to Mitch. You all keep waiting for this skillfull player to appear, all while his freethrow percentage declines from year to year.

I know. I get it. I’m disappointed in Mitch’s decline in his FT shooting. I think that his foot injury prevented him from practicing last summer. I have to assume that the Knicks coaching staff is working on that with him as we speak. I mean, how can they not, right?

Why isn’t PPP stat convincing enough for you?

The foot injury has nothing to do with his decline in freethrow shooting after his rookie season and has steadily dropped since. We've seen what he does in his free time, he practices dribble moves and shoots threes that he will never take in a game. He has taken a total of 16 hooks....in his entire career, this is a player who is devoid of any real skill other than catching lobs, he doesn't even set solid picks.


PPP isn't convincing because it's on such a low volume, he's in the 17.8th percentile for post ups, he had 16 possessions with the play this year. If he were good at it they'd give him the ball in the post, Tom gives Taj some post ups here and there because he's good at it.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Robert Williams looked pretty impactful with his offensive rebounding and rim protection today. 2 things Mitch excels at.

Robert Williams is a career .665% freethrow shooter and is shooting 90% from the line in the playoffs this year, Mitch wouldn't have been in the game tonight because Kerr would have made it a priority to foul him.

Also, Williams is just better.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Robert Williams looked pretty impactful with his offensive rebounding and rim protection today. 2 things Mitch excels at.

He's a superior player to robinson

Oh please cut it out its not apples to oranges. They do the same things

There is literally nothing Mitch does better than him, Williams is a better rim protector, better passer, better defender in isolation, makes his freethrows and guards better in switches. Saying they do the same thing is like saying a Tesla and Geo Metro do the same thing, sure they both get from point a to b, it's just that one is so obviously better than the other.

[KnixtapeH20]

He's a superior player to robinson

Oh please cut it out its not apples to oranges. They do the same things

There is literally nothing Mitch does better than him, Williams is a better rim protector, better passer, better defender in isolation, makes his freethrows and guards better in switches. Saying they do the same thing is like saying a Tesla and Geo Metro do the same thing, sure they both get from point a to b, it's just that one is so obviously better than the other.

Hes a better rim protector why bc he's on s great defensive team that doesn't have breakdowns every single possession? He's a better shot blocker? Really? You do realize Mitch was on a list with Manute Bol and David Robinson.

If you ignore the lack of defensive players like that doesn't constantly force Mitch out of position for the block bc he has to take the penetrator that's just bias.

Saying they're so far apart other than from the foul line is pure bias and I wonder what you'd be saying if Robert Williams played for the Knicks and vice-versa? The team and organization both players play for play a HUGE factor.

Mitch shined in a pile of dog ****.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Oh please cut it out its not apples to oranges. They do the same things

There is literally nothing Mitch does better than him, Williams is a better rim protector, better passer, better defender in isolation, makes his freethrows and guards better in switches. Saying they do the same thing is like saying a Tesla and Geo Metro do the same thing, sure they both get from point a to b, it's just that one is so obviously better than the other.

Hes a better rim protector why bc he's on s great defensive team that doesn't have breakdowns every single possession? He's a better shot blocker? Really? You do realize Mitch was on a list with Manute Bol and David Robinson.

If you ignore the lack of defensive players like that doesn't constantly force Mitch out of position for the block bc he has to take the penetrator that's just bias.

Saying they're so far apart is pure bias and I wonder what you'd be saying if Robert Williams played for the Knicks and vice-versa? The team and organization both players play for play a HUGE factor.

Mitch shined in a pile of dog ****.

On a historically great defensive team, guess who has the best defensive rating on the Celtics, meanwhile Mitch for the 2nd straight year couldn't beat out Nerlens Noel on our team. He's a better rim protector because he's unique, he's a 6'8.5" big man that has a 7'6" wingspan and 9'4" standing reach, so he is more mobile and quicker to the ball because of this, while having a bigger wingspan and the same standing reach as Mitch. Almost every defensive stat you can think of says Williams is a better defender independent of him playing for the Celtics, even something like isolation defense has Williams way ahead. You can keep trying to blame the team, we see the videos of his summer workouts of him pretending to be a guard, doing things he will never do in a game, much like JaVale, Hassan, DeAndre and Drummond would do.

They are far apart, because of the fact that Williams makes freethrows, you cannot ignore that no matter how much you try. Nobody is going to play Mitch in the 4th quarter of a game like tonight because you can just foul him, in a game where every possession matters you cannot play a 49% freethrow shooter, nobody does it, all of the bigs in this series are shooting between 62-90% from the line for the playoffs. You and anyone who supports Mitch cannot address this, how would he play in tonights game? He would be fouled almost immediately until he's taken out the game.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

DeAndre Jordan is negative 133 for his career in the playoffs.


This is who Mitch is most like, a career 47.5% freethrow shooter and 40% from the line in the playoffs. Jordan was an all-nba guy 3 times, and all-defense 2, he also finished 3rd in DPOY and with all of that he was a complete liability in the playoffs because he couldn't make freethrows, he couldn't punish the opposing team on offense, and hurt his teams spacing when the league started to change. Yet, somehow it will be different with Mitch?

[HarthorneWingo]

Robert Williams looked pretty impactful with his offensive rebounding and rim protection today. 2 things Mitch excels at.

He's a superior player to robinson

Only because he hits his FTs at a better %.

[Nazrmohamed]

Mitch's impact on our defense was massive this year.

He covered so many holes created by our terrible perimeter defense. With Randle and to a lesser extent RJ's regression on defense, and the huge downgrade from Bullock to Fournier, the Knicks would have been bottom of the league in defense without Mitch - a proper rim protector, a selfless player, and a guy who shows discipline in boxing out underneath the basket.

On offense, there is no doubt that the Knicks would benefit from a more versatile/skilled center. Noel's ability to hit free throws and occasionally hit a baby jumper was definitely a plus last year. I go back and forth with Mitch, because he's an elite finisher around the rim, and he provides vertical spacing. Unfortunately he cannot shoot jumpers in motion, he can't playmake on the roll (though he's improved a bit as a passer), and more importantly his FT shooting has regressed every year since he entered the NBA, which is incredibly concerning for a player who eats at the rim.

Should Mitch be part of the foundation of this team moving forward? I don't know. I can see both sides of the argument. Depends a lot on the figures on his next contract, and/or what you possibly could get for him in a S&T.

But he was our most impactful starter this year, which isn't saying much, since our starters sucked.

PS: And losing him for nothing would be atrocious.

Sorry man , impactful is an overrated and overused word and basically a cop out for saying advanced metrics.

Mitch has never been impactful as a starter but he can post some decent advanced stats because his low volume high efficiency . It’s happens a lot with centers . Some guys are 20 PER centers but out of the league because their actual impact isn’t what the metrics say they are.
A guy like boban for example.

I thought advanced metrics was what being impactful was all about? Or else we can all just agree that Foolius Randle is the best player we've had on the Knicks since 2000.

[WargamesX]

Robert Williams looked pretty impactful with his offensive rebounding and rim protection today. 2 things Mitch excels at.

Robert Williams is a career .665% freethrow shooter and is shooting 90% from the line in the playoffs this year, Mitch wouldn't have been in the game tonight because Kerr would have made it a priority to foul him.

Also, Williams is just better.

FT was a issue with the whole team this year

[DrCoach]

Mitch's impact on our defense was massive this year.

He covered so many holes created by our terrible perimeter defense. With Randle and to a lesser extent RJ's regression on defense, and the huge downgrade from Bullock to Fournier, the Knicks would have been bottom of the league in defense without Mitch - a proper rim protector, a selfless player, and a guy who shows discipline in boxing out underneath the basket.

On offense, there is no doubt that the Knicks would benefit from a more versatile/skilled center. Noel's ability to hit free throws and occasionally hit a baby jumper was definitely a plus last year. I go back and forth with Mitch, because he's an elite finisher around the rim, and he provides vertical spacing. Unfortunately he cannot shoot jumpers in motion, he can't playmake on the roll (though he's improved a bit as a passer), and more importantly his FT shooting has regressed every year since he entered the NBA, which is incredibly concerning for a player who eats at the rim.

Should Mitch be part of the foundation of this team moving forward? I don't know. I can see both sides of the argument. Depends a lot on the figures on his next contract, and/or what you possibly could get for him in a S&T.

But he was our most impactful starter this year, which isn't saying much, since our starters sucked.

PS: And losing him for nothing would be atrocious.

Sorry man , impactful is an overrated and overused word and basically a cop out for saying advanced metrics.

Mitch has never been impactful as a starter but he can post some decent advanced stats because his low volume high efficiency . It’s happens a lot with centers . Some guys are 20 PER centers but out of the league because their actual impact isn’t what the metrics say they are.
A guy like boban for example.

I don't think PER is regarded as an advanced metric anymore. I certainly don't look at it for bigs as it overvalues rebounding. I think it is largely unreliable, and outdated.

Forget the advanced metrics (which unequivocally paint Mitch as our most impactful or best starter this past year), some of the more basic stats would corroborate that.

Take our 4 regular starters:

Net rating
Fournier -2.7
RJ -3.3
Randle -3.6
Mitch -2.1

Defensive rating
Fournier 112.5
RJ 111.6
Randle 111.6
Mitch 111.2

On/off per 100 possessions
Fournier -6.7
RJ -8.0
Randle -9.4
Mitch -3.9

These are basic team-based statistics and they all depict Mitch as our least damaging starter this past year.

That's not to say that he's untouchable.

PER does show productivity,

[Ewing246]

For me here's the question with Mitch, which I believe I asked HEZI a few months ago during a debate about him.

All the advanced impact metrics and basic team-based statistics unequivocally paint Mitch as our most impactful starter this past season. The statistical evidence is so overwhelming that it cannot be ignored, in my opinion.

Yet, there are legitimate questions about his game.

So, is Mitch a "good" player, or is he simply the least damaging of our starters, who sucked this year?

Does he rank #1 across the (statistical) board among our starters because the bar is so low, or because he's actually impactful within the bigger NBA picture?

Until proven otherwise, We’ve seen enough of Mitch around the basket on offense to know that he has a decent touch within 3 feet. He’s hit bank shots and reverse layups where he’s shown a decent touch. I see no reason why he can’t hit a turnaround baby jump hook in the lane. It’s Thibs’s fault for refusing to pull that stick out of his own ass. Not Mitch’s.

The reason he doesn't get the ball is because he has no moves, and you can just foul him and it acts like a turnover. This isn't some Shaq level interior player, giving post touches to someone who shoots 49% from the line is essentially a turnover, if you think he's going to score just foul him and he'll miss more than 1/2 of all foul shots over the course of a game.

Dwight Howard in his prime wasn't even getting the ball like that and he might as well be Hakeem in the post if we're comparing him to Mitch. You all keep waiting for this skillfull player to appear, all while his freethrow percentage declines from year to year.

Fouling Mitch is nothing like a TO. His foul shooting sucks but he hits one out of two and will occasionally wind up with a 3 point play. The NYK scored 107 points per 100 possessions this year. That mean putting him on the line makes the Knicks less efficient than they normally are but not by a ton. It also could get the other team in foul trouble, gets them into the plenty faster, and means the Knicks will be able to get back and have the opponent go up against a set defense the next possession.