Who Gets Trades First: Randle Vs John Collins

[Nazrmohamed]

I think it may be time to accept that Randle isn't getting traded unless it's a can't miss trade at the deadline for an upgrade of a star and even then why wouldn't they trade side pieces and picks and then just keep Randle. And I say all this with the assumption that the Knicks will get Brunson. I mean, why even go after Brunson if you still plan on trading his most talented target?

And it's not about what I wished had happened. It's just logic. Wtf would the Knicks be clearing Cap space for a high end complimentary PG to then trade the guy who that PG was brought in to compliment? The Knicks goal is to pit Brunson and Randle together and then ASAP make a big trade excluding both of them in which they can get a star better than both. The moment Brunson signs you'll probably even start hearing RJ rumors. The Knicks have to make a decision on a max rookie extension. He isn't exactly worth a MRE. I could see the Knicks disappoint allot of fans and offer RJ up as maybe the sole young prospect in a trade that throws a ton of picks and expiring salary. And while it's controversial we got allot of young kids who aren't gonna be stars but still good talents. RJ is supposed to be a star. Either he's a failure at it or a success and if you can't be sure he'll be a success then you might as well use him to go get you one.

[8516knicks]

Wrong. Recent news articles have shown that the Knicks have gauged interest in Randle. Teams are just wary. Meanwhile, the Hawks have been trying to move Collins for a lotto pick. If the Knicks tried to move Randle for a lotto pick, teams would laugh right now. However, if both teams offered to give away Randle versus Collins for free, my bet is that Collins would be the first to go.

My main reasoning for this is that while Randle technically has better iso ability, it’s still not that great. Meanwhile, Collins has better off-ball ability and ability to play next to a star. Moreover, Randle has toxic attitude issues…not as bad as Kyrie, but he’s the worst on the team.

Wanna be real bro ?

Knicks have toxic attitude issues , Randle is the collateral damage.
Julius is a teddy bear, never a problem anywhere else. A guy proud to play and work hard for us. He had rough year.

You responded to my Mitch post but I’m starting to feel Mitch may need to go , the anti Randie movement was much quieter and deemed reserved to understand he was not going anywhere.

Now with Mitch rumored to return , in whatever context , now besides getting Brunson , trading Randle is the main narrative . It’s a veil and enabling the fan base to continue to value a lesser player at the expense of the more valuable player.

Guess fan narrative isn’t that important but these the kids filling up the stadium to boo.
If they care about their Julius investment , they gotta ditch Mitch who is poisoning the reality of probably knicks most foundational player.

Julius Randle is a bench player on a good team. He is in NO WAY the Knicks most foundational player.

All our players are bench players on a good team.

[bearadonisdna]

I think it may be time to accept that Randle isn't getting traded unless it's a can't miss trade at the deadline for an upgrade of a star and even then why wouldn't they trade side pieces and picks and then just keep Randle. And I say all this with the assumption that the Knicks will get Brunson. I mean, why even go after Brunson if you still plan on trading his most talented target?

And it's not about what I wished had happened. It's just logic. Wtf would the Knicks be clearing Cap space for a high end complimentary PG to then trade the guy who that PG was brought in to compliment? The Knicks goal is to pit Brunson and Randle together and then ASAP make a big trade excluding both of them in which they can get a star better than both. The moment Brunson signs you'll probably even start hearing RJ rumors. The Knicks have to make a decision on a max rookie extension. He isn't exactly worth a MRE. I could see the Knicks disappoint allot of fans and offer RJ up as maybe the sole young prospect in a trade that throws a ton of picks and expiring salary. And while it's controversial we got allot of young kids who aren't gonna be stars but still good talents. RJ is supposed to be a star. Either he's a failure at it or a success and if you can't be sure he'll be a success then you might as well use him to go get you one.

You make great point , we adding Brunson but now people want to get rid of his biggest help on team .
Julius still led this team in points , Rebs, assist .
And overall still positive in BPM over the season .

Last year felt terrible but we were still only 37-45.
Felt like we were 27-55. With some improvements this team is not that far from having a better winning season .

[bearadonisdna]

Wanna be real bro ?

Knicks have toxic attitude issues , Randle is the collateral damage.
Julius is a teddy bear, never a problem anywhere else. A guy proud to play and work hard for us. He had rough year.

You responded to my Mitch post but I’m starting to feel Mitch may need to go , the anti Randie movement was much quieter and deemed reserved to understand he was not going anywhere.

Now with Mitch rumored to return , in whatever context , now besides getting Brunson , trading Randle is the main narrative . It’s a veil and enabling the fan base to continue to value a lesser player at the expense of the more valuable player.

Guess fan narrative isn’t that important but these the kids filling up the stadium to boo.
If they care about their Julius investment , they gotta ditch Mitch who is poisoning the reality of probably knicks most foundational player.

Julius Randle is a bench player on a good team. He is in NO WAY the Knicks most foundational player.

All our players are bench players on a good team.

That’s not true. Julius and RJ probably start for a lot of nba teams unless you got stars.
Even bench producing Evan Fournier was a clear cut starter before coming to Knicks but I won’t put him that tier now.

Randle to me is better than draymond and looney.
The guy is 20 and 10 and a a season removed from 2nd team all nba. Unless your a center , those spots aren’t flukey. It’s genuine show of elite nba talent and production . Right now he severely underrated .

Of course he had a Terrible playoffs but Thibs was so much worse I usually don’t even think about Julius.

[Nazrmohamed]

I think it may be time to accept that Randle isn't getting traded unless it's a can't miss trade at the deadline for an upgrade of a star and even then why wouldn't they trade side pieces and picks and then just keep Randle. And I say all this with the assumption that the Knicks will get Brunson. I mean, why even go after Brunson if you still plan on trading his most talented target?

And it's not about what I wished had happened. It's just logic. Wtf would the Knicks be clearing Cap space for a high end complimentary PG to then trade the guy who that PG was brought in to compliment? The Knicks goal is to pit Brunson and Randle together and then ASAP make a big trade excluding both of them in which they can get a star better than both. The moment Brunson signs you'll probably even start hearing RJ rumors. The Knicks have to make a decision on a max rookie extension. He isn't exactly worth a MRE. I could see the Knicks disappoint allot of fans and offer RJ up as maybe the sole young prospect in a trade that throws a ton of picks and expiring salary. And while it's controversial we got allot of young kids who aren't gonna be stars but still good talents. RJ is supposed to be a star. Either he's a failure at it or a success and if you can't be sure he'll be a success then you might as well use him to go get you one.

You make great point , we adding Brunson but now people want to get rid of his biggest help on team .
Julius still led this team in points , Rebs, assist .
And overall still positive in BPM over the season .

Last year felt terrible but we were still only 37-45.
Felt like we were 27-55. With some improvements this team is not that far from having a better winning season .

Listen I'm not gonna spend allot of time defending Randles season except to say once we go all in on a player, we go all in. The thing took a life of its own. Dude became the face of pure evil.

But the decisions have already been made, the plan is in motion. We're going after Brunson. Like it or not it's happening or maybe it doesn't happen but the Knicks aren't trying to downgrade in talent to become a better team in 4yrs, they wanna upgrade in talent and Thibs believes that within the construct young players who work through that mustve developed by virtue of working through that.

So again, if that happens and we get Brunson why would the Knicks trade his most talented target. Not to mention Brunson actually does compliment him. I don't think enough to make them a high seeded playoff team but just like critics say a 8th-6ths seed. People act like you can't be in that space for a moment, can't build off of that. And that's without another trade.

I expect another trade though and it's THAT PLAYER that defines what we are. I think Brunson is a stepping stone move. Who knows who becomes disgruntled by the trade deadline

[WargamesX]

The Knicks don’t want to trade Randle…. The hawks are committed to trading Collins

[Luv those Knicks]

Both seem to be unwanted lol

Knicks aren't even shopping Randle. Hawks have been trying to move Collins for a while.

This.

The fans want Randle traded. The Knicks plan is to build around him and Brunson their way into the 2nd round of the playoffs. Maybe things change in a year - who knows, but for now, Randle's not going anywhere.

Can we make "Knicks are Brunsoning" a thing. Can we make that happen every time they opt for cap space over rebuilding, we'll call it Brunsoning. Maybe? As opposed to Bronsoning, which means, solving all your problems by shooting people.

Do I have a future in creating sniglets?

[bearadonisdna]

I think it may be time to accept that Randle isn't getting traded unless it's a can't miss trade at the deadline for an upgrade of a star and even then why wouldn't they trade side pieces and picks and then just keep Randle. And I say all this with the assumption that the Knicks will get Brunson. I mean, why even go after Brunson if you still plan on trading his most talented target?

And it's not about what I wished had happened. It's just logic. Wtf would the Knicks be clearing Cap space for a high end complimentary PG to then trade the guy who that PG was brought in to compliment? The Knicks goal is to pit Brunson and Randle together and then ASAP make a big trade excluding both of them in which they can get a star better than both. The moment Brunson signs you'll probably even start hearing RJ rumors. The Knicks have to make a decision on a max rookie extension. He isn't exactly worth a MRE. I could see the Knicks disappoint allot of fans and offer RJ up as maybe the sole young prospect in a trade that throws a ton of picks and expiring salary. And while it's controversial we got allot of young kids who aren't gonna be stars but still good talents. RJ is supposed to be a star. Either he's a failure at it or a success and if you can't be sure he'll be a success then you might as well use him to go get you one.

You make great point , we adding Brunson but now people want to get rid of his biggest help on team .
Julius still led this team in points , Rebs, assist .
And overall still positive in BPM over the season .

Last year felt terrible but we were still only 37-45.
Felt like we were 27-55. With some improvements this team is not that far from having a better winning season .

Listen I'm not gonna spend allot of time defending Randles season except to say once we go all in on a player, we go all in. The thing took a life of its own. Dude became the face of pure evil.

But the decisions have already been made, the plan is in motion. We're going after Brunson. Like it or not it's happening or maybe it doesn't happen but the Knicks aren't trying to downgrade in talent to become a better team in 4yrs, they wanna upgrade in talent and Thibs believes that within the construct young players who work through that mustve developed by virtue of working through that.

So again, if that happens and we get Brunson why would the Knicks trade his most talented target. Not to mention Brunson actually does compliment him. I don't think enough to make them a high seeded playoff team but just like critics say a 8th-6ths seed. People act like you can't be in that space for a moment, can't build off of that. And that's without another trade.

I expect another trade though and it's THAT PLAYER that defines what we are. I think Brunson is a stepping stone move. Who knows who becomes disgruntled by the trade deadline

Agreed . While Brunson is the main story he is still just a supplementary piece . Completely agree Knicks will need at least 1 other player similar to Brunson tier to elevate them from what they were last season .

[Nazrmohamed]

They Brunsoned. And in a week they'll give you a Brunsoning.

[Luv those Knicks]

Julius Randle is a bench player on a good team. He is in NO WAY the Knicks most foundational player.

All our players are bench players on a good team.

That’s not true. Julius and RJ probably start for a lot of nba teams unless you got stars.
Even bench producing Evan Fournier was a clear cut starter before coming to Knicks but I won’t put him that tier now.

Randle to me is better than draymond and looney.
The guy is 20 and 10 and a a season removed from 2nd team all nba. Unless your a center , those spots aren’t flukey. It’s genuine show of elite nba talent and production . Right now he severely underrated .

Of course he had a Terrible playoffs but Thibs was so much worse I usually don’t even think about Julius.

I somewhat agree with you, bearadonisdna, but I have reservations.

1) The Knicks played better last year without Randle than with him.

2) Randle had a bad attitude last year, not sharing the teams celebration of wins when he didn't get his minutes or 20 pts. That's not being a good teammate.

3) Randle is a low efficiency player. Maybe that changes, cause he was high efficiency early in his career. Give him a PG, ask him to not do as much and maybe he gets some of his efficiency back.

Of the 13 players who played over 500 minutes for the Knicks last year, Randle was dead last in effective FG%

Win-shares he wasn't quite as bad with 3.1, 6th on the Knicks, but below Obi Toppin. Interestingly, Randle was above RJ Barrett who was 8th in win-shares, below Taj Gibson at 7. Win-Shares per 48, Randle was 12th among players with 500 or more minutes, with only RJ below him.

Box Score +/- and VORP rank Randle higher (5th and 3rd), though more minutes gets a player a higher VORP and Randle played a lot of minutes and Basketball stats are weird because it's a team game, but there are indicators which suggest Randle was a bad starter last year. He was much better in 20-21, so maybe he can improve on last year, but he had a very flawed season last year even with his 20.1 9.9 and 5.1 numbers, which by themselves look good, but he wasn't that good.

[Luv those Knicks]

They Brunsoned. And in a week they'll give you a Brunsoning.

Yes!!! Lets make this a thing. "The Knicks Brunsoned"

[Nazrmohamed]

You make great point , we adding Brunson but now people want to get rid of his biggest help on team .
Julius still led this team in points , Rebs, assist .
And overall still positive in BPM over the season .

Last year felt terrible but we were still only 37-45.
Felt like we were 27-55. With some improvements this team is not that far from having a better winning season .

Listen I'm not gonna spend allot of time defending Randles season except to say once we go all in on a player, we go all in. The thing took a life of its own. Dude became the face of pure evil.

But the decisions have already been made, the plan is in motion. We're going after Brunson. Like it or not it's happening or maybe it doesn't happen but the Knicks aren't trying to downgrade in talent to become a better team in 4yrs, they wanna upgrade in talent and Thibs believes that within the construct young players who work through that mustve developed by virtue of working through that.

So again, if that happens and we get Brunson why would the Knicks trade his most talented target. Not to mention Brunson actually does compliment him. I don't think enough to make them a high seeded playoff team but just like critics say a 8th-6ths seed. People act like you can't be in that space for a moment, can't build off of that. And that's without another trade.

I expect another trade though and it's THAT PLAYER that defines what we are. I think Brunson is a stepping stone move. Who knows who becomes disgruntled by the trade deadline

Agreed . While Brunson is the main story he is still just a supplementary piece . Completely agree Knicks will need at least 1 other player similar to Brunson tier to elevate them from what they were last season .

Oh wait now, hold up. I'm not talking about Brunson or Randles tier. I'm talking about THE TRADE. It'll split the board and it'll cost us assets that people won't wanna give up. I'm talking about the Donovan Mitchell, Bradley Beal tier. And yes I'm just saying them because thier names have been linked to trades. But there'll be at least one or two more guys at the trade deadline added to the list at that tier. Could be Durant, idk.

But it's gotta be someone who even with Julius here, we stop referencing the team as "Julius Randles Knicks". People keep this narrative that Randle can't play with another star
-I think it's overblown and he can
-we should be looking for the level of star who makes Julius his bitch. Both in skill and presence.

[8516knicks]

"we should be looking for the level of star who makes Julius his bitch. Both in skill and presence."
But we'll settle for this year's version of Fournier and Kemba.

[Luv those Knicks]

:lol: "we should be looking for the level of star who makes Julius his bitch. Both in skill and presence."
But we'll settle for this year's version of Fournier and Kemba.

I was excited about landing Kemba last year - which shows that I don't know anything.

That said, I think Bronson maybe carries us up to 42-46 wins which is kind of a "why bother" season. But, time will tell.

[bearadonisdna]

Listen I'm not gonna spend allot of time defending Randles season except to say once we go all in on a player, we go all in. The thing took a life of its own. Dude became the face of pure evil.

But the decisions have already been made, the plan is in motion. We're going after Brunson. Like it or not it's happening or maybe it doesn't happen but the Knicks aren't trying to downgrade in talent to become a better team in 4yrs, they wanna upgrade in talent and Thibs believes that within the construct young players who work through that mustve developed by virtue of working through that.

So again, if that happens and we get Brunson why would the Knicks trade his most talented target. Not to mention Brunson actually does compliment him. I don't think enough to make them a high seeded playoff team but just like critics say a 8th-6ths seed. People act like you can't be in that space for a moment, can't build off of that. And that's without another trade.

I expect another trade though and it's THAT PLAYER that defines what we are. I think Brunson is a stepping stone move. Who knows who becomes disgruntled by the trade deadline

Agreed . While Brunson is the main story he is still just a supplementary piece . Completely agree Knicks will need at least 1 other player similar to Brunson tier to elevate them from what they were last season .

Oh wait now, hold up. I'm not talking about Brunson or Randles tier. I'm talking about THE TRADE. It'll split the board and it'll cost us assets that people won't wanna give up. I'm talking about the Donovan Mitchell, Bradley Beal tier. And yes I'm just saying them because thier names have been linked to trades. But there'll be at least one or two more guys at the trade deadline added to the list at that tier. Could be Durant, idk.

But it's gotta be someone who even with Julius here, we stop referencing the team as "Julius Randles Knicks". People keep this narrative that Randle can't play with another star
-I think it's overblown and he can
-we should be looking for the level of star who makes Julius his bitch. Both in skill and presence.

Well sure , when you’re talking THE TRADE, guys like Brunson or Randle my even be collateral in a move like that.

That’s big picture . In the current context I’m trying to say that Brunson is not enough and another player will part of what this teams identity will and should be.

You’re talking about THE TRADE which is still possible this off-season if it doesn’t , Knicks still need more than Brunson to elevate this team is my point.

[bearadonisdna]

All our players are bench players on a good team.

That’s not true. Julius and RJ probably start for a lot of nba teams unless you got stars.
Even bench producing Evan Fournier was a clear cut starter before coming to Knicks but I won’t put him that tier now.

Randle to me is better than draymond and looney.
The guy is 20 and 10 and a a season removed from 2nd team all nba. Unless your a center , those spots aren’t flukey. It’s genuine show of elite nba talent and production . Right now he severely underrated .

Of course he had a Terrible playoffs but Thibs was so much worse I usually don’t even think about Julius.

I somewhat agree with you, bearadonisdna, but I have reservations.

1) The Knicks played better last year without Randle than with him.

2) Randle had a bad attitude last year, not sharing the teams celebration of wins when he didn't get his minutes or 20 pts. That's not being a good teammate.

3) Randle is a low efficiency player. Maybe that changes, cause he was high efficiency early in his career. Give him a PG, ask him to not do as much and maybe he gets some of his efficiency back.

Of the 13 players who played over 500 minutes for the Knicks last year, Randle was dead last in effective FG%

Win-shares he wasn't quite as bad with 3.1, 6th on the Knicks, but below Obi Toppin. Interestingly, Randle was above RJ Barrett who was 8th in win-shares, below Taj Gibson at 7. Win-Shares per 48, Randle was 12th among players with 500 or more minutes, with only RJ below him.

Box Score +/- and VORP rank Randle higher (5th and 3rd), though more minutes gets a player a higher VORP and Randle played a lot of minutes and Basketball stats are weird because it's a team game, but there are indicators which suggest Randle was a bad starter last year. He was much better in 20-21, so maybe he can improve on last year, but he had a very flawed season last year even with his 20.1 9.9 and 5.1 numbers, which by themselves look good, but he wasn't that good.

1. In Julius initial absence (covid) the Knicks were worse and Thibs used backup qb line.

2. Julius was as frustrated as any NY fan watching . Him being frustrated actually shows me competitive spirit instead of just being happy going through motions kind of guy who flat out don’t care.

3. Randle ‘was’ a low efficient player. Historically this season is the aberration , not the norm.

It was a tough season no doubt , he has his flaws do I think they will be better to trade him ? No. In the short term they will become exponentially worse losing their leading scorer , rebounder , assister.

[8516knicks]

:lol: "we should be looking for the level of star who makes Julius his bitch. Both in skill and presence."
But we'll settle for this year's version of Fournier and Kemba.

I was excited about landing Kemba last year - which shows that I don't know anything.

That said, I think Bronson maybe carries us up to 42-46 wins which is kind of a "why bother" season. But, time will tell.

If Charles Bronson shows up packing, we might make the playoffs!

[thebuzzardman]

:lol: "we should be looking for the level of star who makes Julius his bitch. Both in skill and presence."
But we'll settle for this year's version of Fournier and Kemba.

I was excited about landing Kemba last year - which shows that I don't know anything.

That said, I think Bronson maybe carries us up to 42-46 wins which is kind of a "why bother" season. But, time will tell.

If Charles Bronson shows up packing, we might make the playoffs!

Evale, here's a suggestion

[RHODEY]

I was excited about landing Kemba last year - which shows that I don't know anything.

That said, I think Bronson maybe carries us up to 42-46 wins which is kind of a "why bother" season. But, time will tell.

If Charles Bronson shows up packing, we might make the playoffs!

Evale, here's a suggestion

He'll show up in Dolans office to fulfill that Death Wish...if Julius doesn't get traded.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Knicks won’t trade Randle since they are clueless but they should.