2023 draft thread

[Gravy]

According to Knicks fans every team got better than us because they all drafted a superstar this draft and we did not. So we are guaranteed a top five pick!

You know you’re wrong.

He's either trolling by using a straw man

Or

He's fooling himself by using a straw man

Hey, people have literally said every team got better than us and our core is the worst so...wouldnt that mean the worst record?

[cgmw]

You know you’re wrong.

He's either trolling by using a straw man

Or

He's fooling himself by using a straw man

Hey, people have literally said every team got better than us and our core is the worst so...wouldnt that mean the worst record?

No, half the teams have better young cores. So we will compete on the upper end with them for W/L this season, falling behind them in years to come. The other half have better veterans, so we will compete on the bottom half with them in 2022-23, which means we’re steadily on pace for a best-case slightly above .500 and worst-case slightly below .400.

In other words, cruising steadily toward another 8-12 pick that we have no interest in using or developing. Over the long run that does make us the worst team in the sport except possibly Sacramento or Washington IMO.

[8516knicks]

You know you’re wrong.

He's either trolling by using a straw man

Or

He's fooling himself by using a straw man

Hey, people have literally said every team got better than us and our core is the worst so...wouldnt that mean the worst record?

No, because the only thing we're good at is screwing up our draft postion! wE're champions of the world at that!

Watch on YouTube

[Gravy]

He's either trolling by using a straw man

Or

He's fooling himself by using a straw man

Hey, people have literally said every team got better than us and our core is the worst so...wouldnt that mean the worst record?

No, half the teams have better young cores. So we will compete on the upper end with them for W/L this season, falling behind them in years to come. The other half have better veterans, so we will compete on the bottom half with them in 2022-23, which means we’re steadily on pace for a best-case slightly above .500 and worst-case slightly below .400.

In other words, cruising steadily toward another 8-12 pick that we have no interest in using or developing. Over the long run that does make us the worst team in the sport except possibly Sacramento or Washington IMO.

33-39 wins for the next 5 years would be annoying. We'll see what happens with Brunson and the 2023 draft, if they trade all the kids and all the picks for Westbrook then you were right

[spree2kawhi]

Hey, people have literally said every team got better than us and our core is the worst so...wouldnt that mean the worst record?

No, half the teams have better young cores. So we will compete on the upper end with them for W/L this season, falling behind them in years to come. The other half have better veterans, so we will compete on the bottom half with them in 2022-23, which means we’re steadily on pace for a best-case slightly above .500 and worst-case slightly below .400.

In other words, cruising steadily toward another 8-12 pick that we have no interest in using or developing. Over the long run that does make us the worst team in the sport except possibly Sacramento or Washington IMO.

33-39 wins for the next 5 years would be annoying. We'll see what happens with Brunson and the 2023 draft, if they trade all the kids and all the picks for Westbrook then you were right

We’re literally averaging 31 wins over the last ten years and it doesn’t look too different over 20 I think (actually we’re literally averaging 32 wins over 20 years - how depressing is that?). Why not 21 or 51? The answer is that we’re doing it all wrong. Orlando just had two sessions worth 21 and 22 wins respectively. They just drafted #1 again, they’re loaded with young talent at every position.

[KnicksGadfly]

You know you’re wrong.

He's either trolling by using a straw man

Or

He's fooling himself by using a straw man

Hey, people have literally said every team got better than us and our core is the worst so...wouldnt that mean the worst record?

Like I said, it’s easy to win an argument when you make a straw man.

[cgmw]

No, half the teams have better young cores. So we will compete on the upper end with them for W/L this season, falling behind them in years to come. The other half have better veterans, so we will compete on the bottom half with them in 2022-23, which means we’re steadily on pace for a best-case slightly above .500 and worst-case slightly below .400.

In other words, cruising steadily toward another 8-12 pick that we have no interest in using or developing. Over the long run that does make us the worst team in the sport except possibly Sacramento or Washington IMO.

33-39 wins for the next 5 years would be annoying. We'll see what happens with Brunson and the 2023 draft, if they trade all the kids and all the picks for Westbrook then you were right

We’re literally averaging 31 wins over the last ten years and it doesn’t look too different over 20 I think (actually we’re literally averaging 32 wins over 20 years - how depressing is that?). Why not 21 or 51? The answer is that we’re doing it all wrong. Orlando just had two sessions worth 21 and 22 wins respectively. They just drafted #1 again, they’re loaded with young talent at every position.

Spectacular stuff when you consider the payroll it’s taken to average 31 wins, especially since it’s about to be 1/4 century of the same formula and the goal for 20 F*cking 23 = three $100mm contracts (Randle, Brunson, RJ) to form a likely 31 win team.

[Gravy]

No, half the teams have better young cores. So we will compete on the upper end with them for W/L this season, falling behind them in years to come. The other half have better veterans, so we will compete on the bottom half with them in 2022-23, which means we’re steadily on pace for a best-case slightly above .500 and worst-case slightly below .400.

In other words, cruising steadily toward another 8-12 pick that we have no interest in using or developing. Over the long run that does make us the worst team in the sport except possibly Sacramento or Washington IMO.

33-39 wins for the next 5 years would be annoying. We'll see what happens with Brunson and the 2023 draft, if they trade all the kids and all the picks for Westbrook then you were right

We’re literally averaging 31 wins over the last ten years and it doesn’t look too different over 20 I think (actually we’re literally averaging 32 wins over 20 years - how depressing is that?). Why not 21 or 51? The answer is that we’re doing it all wrong. Orlando just had two sessions worth 21 and 22 wins respectively. They just drafted #1 again, they’re loaded with young talent at every position.

It looks worse when you dont move up at all in the lotto. I believe every team has moved up except us in the last 20 years. They are not all getting the worst record. Pelicans and Grizzlies got 1st and 2nd picks with 33 wins

[Luv those Knicks]

I understand and empathize with fan bias toward wanting to believe the Knicks have a shot at these up-and-coming prospects, but let’s look at the objective track-record here:

• 2022: Leon keeps Burks post-deadline, late-season win streak, brags about it in letter to ticket holders, apologizes for missing playoffs, gets 11 pick, trades out of draft.

• 2021: Extends 5 veterans including Randle, brings in Fournier/Kemba as starters, trades back in first round.

• 2020: Hires coach known for not playing rookies. Takes 23 year old “backup QB” (over obvious developmental higher ceiling guard Haliburton), stocks roster with vets to play ahead of Obi + ahead of literally every young player except RJ.

Objectively, it seems highly unlikely that Leon Rose and Tom Thibs have any intention of drafting impact rookies in 2023. The track record indicates Leon will do everything in his power to leverage those picks for the veteran help that Thibs craves and Dolan demands to make the playoffs as promised in his letter to ticket holders.

This thread, like hundreds if not thousands of hours of Knick YouTube content analyzing prospects, is entertaining but a total waste of time. The purpose of threads like these is simply to make some Knick fans feel better emotionally by pretending like one of these prospects might save us.

I'm honestly not sure what to say to this.

1) I respect that you're sympathetic to unrealistic fans. I'm not able to do that. I find unrealistic viewpoints annoying.

2) . . . Keeping Burks - it depends what was offered. If somebody offered the Knicks a future first, then, yes, they should have moved him. If the offer was a 2nd round pick - no big. If we don't know what was offered, I'm not going to kill Leon for that.

3) Boasting about a win streak in a lost season is dumb, especially since fans tend to watch draft pick order.

4) Trading the 11 pick, if the Knicks didn't really believe in the guy, for 3 future firsts - is fine. The NFL has this cool chart where picks are valued so fans can look at pick trades, add up the numbers and pick winners. NBA doesn't have that, but 3 future first round picks for 1, even if the #1 is 11, That's fine. They got good return.

5) Extending 5 vets in the 2021 off season . . . with a 41-31 record, It's not what I'd have done, but I understood it. They hoped Walker had something left in the tank and he didn't.

6) Thibs plays rookies. He's playing RJ & Quickley & Mitch & Grimes and Obi got more minutes. Thibs is an odd coach, who seemed to know what he was doing in 20-21, less so 21-22. He influences the draft maybe too much though trading back cause he liked Grimes . . . not awful and trading back for McBride and adding Jokubaitis for trading back 2 spots - that was brilliant. Was that THibs or Leon or both . . . I don't know, but some of the trading back has worked out.

They turned the #19 pick into Cam Reddish - jury's still out but right now, doesn't look good.

They turned the #21 into the #25 and I think a future 2nd. If they going to draft Grimes anyway - nothing wrong with that.

- - -

I guess my point is the same. A lot of these moves aren't what I would do, but none of them scream stupidity like the Melo trade did or the Isiah moves did.

The big mistake was signing Randle, but he did kind of fool them with a career year.

The bad break was getting the #3 pick, not the #2, where they could have had Ja Morant. Part of it is bad luck.

- - -

But I'm a wait and see guy. Lets wait and see what the 22-23 season turns into. If they land Brunson. If Brunson & RJ click and turn into a dynamic duo.

Lets wait and see what happens with the 2023 first round picks - the Knicks and the Mavs and the Knicks pick could be anywhere between, say #8 and #19 . . . give or take.

The Mavs pick is top 10 protected, but could be (if they stumble) as low as #11, but I think if the Maves struggle, they'll tank, so realisitically, #16-#26 is the more likely Mavs pick range - give or take.

And maybe they have a 2nd or possibly 2, I'm not sure how the protections work.

So, lets see where the picks land, lets see what the team looks like and cross that bridge when they come to it.

- - -

I don't know. I'm not going to kill Leon for signing Randle after a career year. I think the cap space instead of holding onto the #11 pick is a very Dolan move, . . . I don't know, but they weren't well set up for a full rebuild anyway. If this team is going to rebuild, they need to trade RJ and avoid his contract when it's contract time and put a bad team out there for 2-3 years and . . . I don't know. Is that better than seeing if RJ & Brunson can win 48 games together?

I don't love Leon, but I don't blame him for Walker being awful because that strikes me as hindsight. I'm more on the fence than most.

[WargamesX]

This is a really sore subject right now.

[8516knicks]

Cam Whitmore. With a Brunson and Whitmore backcourt (VU), we're Dallas of this year. then we just need one good player (not Randle!!!) to go from conference semi-finals each year to contender. Rj 4th option fits him best.

[robillionaire]

Lol go ahead and lock this one up wvabslayamana fans in shambles

[HarthorneWingo]

IB4TL

What draft picks? They'll all be gone very soon. lol

[spree2kawhi]

33-39 wins for the next 5 years would be annoying. We'll see what happens with Brunson and the 2023 draft, if they trade all the kids and all the picks for Westbrook then you were right

We’re literally averaging 31 wins over the last ten years and it doesn’t look too different over 20 I think (actually we’re literally averaging 32 wins over 20 years - how depressing is that?). Why not 21 or 51? The answer is that we’re doing it all wrong. Orlando just had two sessions worth 21 and 22 wins respectively. They just drafted #1 again, they’re loaded with young talent at every position.

It looks worse when you dont move up at all in the lotto. I believe every team has moved up except us in the last 20 years. They are not all getting the worst record. Pelicans and Grizzlies got 1st and 2nd picks with 33 wins

I know you’re not, but I also don’t think people should come close to making excuses for them. It is inexcusable that we didn’t follow up our lone #3 pick with a wholehearted effort to draft a running mate the year after that.

Even imagine we had drafted Randle right after RJ. How underwhelming.

[Gravy]

We’re literally averaging 31 wins over the last ten years and it doesn’t look too different over 20 I think (actually we’re literally averaging 32 wins over 20 years - how depressing is that?). Why not 21 or 51? The answer is that we’re doing it all wrong. Orlando just had two sessions worth 21 and 22 wins respectively. They just drafted #1 again, they’re loaded with young talent at every position.

It looks worse when you dont move up at all in the lotto. I believe every team has moved up except us in the last 20 years. They are not all getting the worst record. Pelicans and Grizzlies got 1st and 2nd picks with 33 wins

I know you’re not, but I also don’t think people should come close to making excuses for them. It is inexcusable that we didn’t follow up our lone #3 pick with a wholehearted effort to draft a running mate the year after that.

Even imagine we had drafted Randle right after RJ. How underwhelming.

You are right that they tried to make the playoffs the following year. What's funny is they still ended up with the guy in the draft they really wanted..Obi. So its a moot point whether they tanked or not that season.

[bleedblue3303]

It looks worse when you dont move up at all in the lotto. I believe every team has moved up except us in the last 20 years. They are not all getting the worst record. Pelicans and Grizzlies got 1st and 2nd picks with 33 wins

I know you’re not, but I also don’t think people should come close to making excuses for them. It is inexcusable that we didn’t follow up our lone #3 pick with a wholehearted effort to draft a running mate the year after that.

Even imagine we had drafted Randle right after RJ. How underwhelming.

You are right that they tried to make the playoffs the following year. What's funny is they still ended up with the guy in the draft they really wanted..Obi. So its a moot point whether they tanked or not that season.

I'm a broken record but keep having to repeat it. 1st year post RJ draft in the last 10 games in a lost season we went 6-4. this took us out of contention of drafting Lamelo or Ant Edwards and putting us in play for OBI. I love Obi but not at the expense of Lamelo who was the guy we originally wanted. We didn't tank but we stunk and our decision to win meaningless games like we do every year hurt us.

[Gravy]

I know you’re not, but I also don’t think people should come close to making excuses for them. It is inexcusable that we didn’t follow up our lone #3 pick with a wholehearted effort to draft a running mate the year after that.

Even imagine we had drafted Randle right after RJ. How underwhelming.

You are right that they tried to make the playoffs the following year. What's funny is they still ended up with the guy in the draft they really wanted..Obi. So its a moot point whether they tanked or not that season.

I'm a broken record but keep having to repeat it. 1st year post RJ draft in the last 10 games in a lost season we went 6-4. this took us out of contention of drafting Lamelo or Ant Edwards and putting us in play for OBI. I love Obi but not at the expense of Lamelo who was the guy we originally wanted. We didn't tank but we stunk and our decision to win meaningless games like we do every year hurt us.

They wanted Obi or Wiseman

Read on Twitter

[spree2kawhi]

It looks worse when you dont move up at all in the lotto. I believe every team has moved up except us in the last 20 years. They are not all getting the worst record. Pelicans and Grizzlies got 1st and 2nd picks with 33 wins

I know you’re not, but I also don’t think people should come close to making excuses for them. It is inexcusable that we didn’t follow up our lone #3 pick with a wholehearted effort to draft a running mate the year after that.

Even imagine we had drafted Randle right after RJ. How underwhelming.

You are right that they tried to make the playoffs the following year. What's funny is they still ended up with the guy in the draft they really wanted..Obi. So its a moot point whether they tanked or not that season.

I think nobody really wanted Obi.

[Gravy]

I know you’re not, but I also don’t think people should come close to making excuses for them. It is inexcusable that we didn’t follow up our lone #3 pick with a wholehearted effort to draft a running mate the year after that.

Even imagine we had drafted Randle right after RJ. How underwhelming.

You are right that they tried to make the playoffs the following year. What's funny is they still ended up with the guy in the draft they really wanted..Obi. So its a moot point whether they tanked or not that season.

I think nobody really wanted Obi.

Knicks were going to trade up to get him like they tried with Ivey. Obi was their guy. Saying everyone knew Lamelo would be a star now is hindsight

https://nypost.com/2020/11/18/knicks-considering-2020-nba-draft-trade-to-secure-obi-toppin/

[cgmw]

I know you’re not, but I also don’t think people should come close to making excuses for them. It is inexcusable that we didn’t follow up our lone #3 pick with a wholehearted effort to draft a running mate the year after that.

Even imagine we had drafted Randle right after RJ. How underwhelming.

You are right that they tried to make the playoffs the following year. What's funny is they still ended up with the guy in the draft they really wanted..Obi. So its a moot point whether they tanked or not that season.

I'm a broken record but keep having to repeat it. 1st year post RJ draft in the last 10 games in a lost season we went 6-4. this took us out of contention of drafting Lamelo or Ant Edwards and putting us in play for OBI. I love Obi but not at the expense of Lamelo who was the guy we originally wanted. We didn't tank but we stunk and our decision to win meaningless games like we do every year hurt us.

It’s nice to see some fans actually seeing the truth finally after so many years of this bullsh*t.

It’s amazing to me how many fans will swear up and down defending the Knicks irrational late-season win streaks, and even more amazing how few fans realize what an absolute travesty it was to sign Randle before RJ’s rookie year and not tank one more time for a running mate.

RJ’s rookie season MSG, Inc. was all about “Playoffs!” when any sane franchise would have played one more season for Ant/Lamelo/and yes Wiseman.

Even after that season, it’s inexcusable for Leon not to dump Randle as one of his first moves and tank for the Mobley draft. Anyway, here we go again “winning now” behind Rick Brunson’s kid as if he’s the next coming of Walt Clyde when it was entirely possible for the Knicks to have a core of Lamelo, RJ, Mobley right now.