Donovan Mitchell Thread #8 - We're pretty f@#$!n far from close, aren't we?!?!?!?!

Post #1 » by **Jeff Van Gully** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 7:48 pm

so damn filthy

strummer · Post #2 » by **strummer** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 7:49 pm

8! 8! I forget what 8 was for!

RHODEY · Post #3 » by **RHODEY** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 7:53 pm

moocow007 wrote:Regarding this whole Randle is a ball stopper who hogs the ball while RJ is a ball mover debate...

Here's some interesting tidbits.

Average Seconds Per Touch - yeah this is actually a stat that shows on the average how long the ball remains in the hands of a player when he gets the ball.

RJ Barrett - 3.27
Julius Randle - 3.25

Average Dribbles Per Touch - this goes into the "dribble the ball to death" argument that folks keep throwing Randle's way but don't seem to throw RJ's way.

RJ Barrett - 2.67
Julius Randle - 2.20

Now Randle does touch the ball a lot more than Barrett per game (76.5 for Randle in 35.3mpg, 54.3 for RJ in 34.5mpg) but is that because Randle forces his teammates to pass him the ball or that the offense is run through Randle? The former would be on Randle. The later would be on the coaching staff. What do you guys think it is?

And also note neither guy is ranked in the top 200 in ASPT so I wouldn't consider either player ball hogs in the strictest sense. But the point is that if we are going to call Randle a ball hog and ball stopper then it's hard not to do the same with Barrett and vice versa cause honestly they are back to back in ASPT.

As far as Barrett working better in the flow of an offense and therefore by implication a better player for his teammates own offensive well being? If you look at the Assist % which is the percentage of teammates made field goals that a player assisted with, Julius Randle's assist % was 25.1% while RJ Barret's was 14.9%. Also note that as awful as Julius Randle was last season his overall BPM (Box plus minus when a player is in the game vs when he's on the bench) as well as both OBPM and DBPM were in the positive (0.5 BPM, 0.2 DBPM, 0.4 OBPM) while RJ Barrett's BPM scores were all in the negative (-1.6 BPM, -1.3 DPBM, -0.3 OBPM). I'm pretty sure that the positive numbers are better. What does that mean? That means that the Knicks team (everyone else on the floor) did better when Randle was on the floor than when Barrett was on the floor. Now of course this doesn't account when both guys are on the floor vs only one guy but not the other, but the general gist is there.

So within the context of the two guys, I don't see how you can argue that Barrett was better for the team than Randle despite Randle getting the brunt of the blame (and deservedly so).

Yeah you can argue that Barrett is younger and is getting better. But while yes, he's younger, statistically he didn't get better last season compared to the season before (just like Randle didn't). If anything he also got worse. Not as bad season to season as Randle, but RJ Barrett really didn't improve last season. He got worse as well. In fact you can argue that Barrett got "worser" than Randle in some areas. Now of course you can blame Randle for that (why not right?), but the stats really don't back it up does it (see BPM and assist %)?

This is by no means to excuse Randle for the **** show he put up but Barrett was also doing his own **** show best (he just wasn't as vulgar about it). This is more of a cold water splash on face post. And this is the guy that we may need to look at extending with upwards of $185 million over 5 by some time next season (PS: that's a much bigger extension than we gave Randle). If we are so easy to get rid of Randle I'm not sure we should be so eager to anoint RJ anything nor be eager to give him a big extension.

This above likely is a reason that the Jazz and Ainge reportedly didn't want Barrett. Not because he'd hurt their tank but that, like Randle, his numbers may be deceiving and if you did not good at all to be giving a lot of money to.

Average Bad Decisions (by percentage) Per Touch

RJ Barrett - 9 Percent

Julius Randle -90 Percent

Jalen Bluntson · Post #4 » by **Jalen Bluntson** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 7:55 pm

1,2,3,4
Can I have a little more
5,6,78910 no trade yet!

Post #5 » by **Capn'O** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 7:58 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:so damn filthy

I'm glad I waited on this. You had a much better thread title. I was struggling for one.

Post #6 » by **Jeff Van Gully** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:01 pm

Capn'O wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:so damn filthy

I'm glad I waited on this. You had a much better thread title. I was struggling for one.

knicks94 · Post #7 » by **knicks94** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:01 pm

800 plus pages of DM!

Ghetto Gospel · Post #8 » by **Ghetto Gospel** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:02 pm

knicks94 wrote:800 plus pages of DM!

prob closer to 200, the other 600 are rj and randle :lol:

Post #9 » by **Deeeez Knicks** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:04 pm

We are going thru these threads like Dante going thru the 9 circles of hell. The 7th circle was for violence. Now we are in the circle for frauds, sorcerers and false prophets. I see the Utah media found there seat next to the talking clam.

Orange Mamba · Post #10 » by **Orange Mamba** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:10 pm

something will happen in this one

stuporman · Post #11 » by **stuporman** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:10 pm

What circle of hell is it for attention whore twitter muppets?

stuporman · Post #12 » by **stuporman** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:12 pm

Let's make an pact that we will leave behind all the beef in previous threads in those and start fresh... who am I kidding, leftover beef is still delicious and we can always have fresh beef if we want, too.

Fat Kat · Post #13 » by **Fat Kat** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:13 pm

Read on Twitter

Galvationknicks · Post #14 » by **Galvationknicks** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:16 pm

The Walker Smith Gallinari Sprewell thread. We definitely getting Donovan now

Guano · Post #15 » by **Guano** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:16 pm

Ghetto Gospel wrote:
knicks94 wrote:800 plus pages of DM!

prob closer to 200, the other 600 are rj and randle

5 pages of mushroom talk being erased here and I will not stand for it! :evil:

KnicksGadfly · Post #16 » by **KnicksGadfly** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:17 pm

Honestly RJ has a long way to go too. I feel like he's also at a crossroads this next year. He wants to get paid and he wants to take a leap in terms of scoring the basketball. Once he's not on that rookie contract anymore, the expectations rise.

From my end, I was pretty concerned that he focused on 20 ppg, through whatever means necessary. That's not the way to do it. If he improves efficiency, the 20 ppg will come. Beyond that, he needs to continue to grow as a defender and shooter, but he's shown the willingness to work.

Galvationknicks · Post #17 » by **Galvationknicks** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:19 pm

Fat Kat wrote:

Read on Twitter

Heard Donovan wanted to have a discussion about CRT and of course the in ppl Utah didn't want to hear it.

Post #18 » by **moocow007** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:21 pm

RHODEY wrote:
moocow007 wrote:Regarding this whole Randle is a ball stopper who hogs the ball while RJ is a ball mover debate...

Here's some interesting tidbits.

Average Seconds Per Touch - yeah this is actually a stat that shows on the average how long the ball remains in the hands of a player when he gets the ball.

RJ Barrett - 3.27
Julius Randle - 3.25

Average Dribbles Per Touch - this goes into the "dribble the ball to death" argument that folks keep throwing Randle's way but don't seem to throw RJ's way.

RJ Barrett - 2.67
Julius Randle - 2.20

Now Randle does touch the ball a lot more than Barrett per game (76.5 for Randle in 35.3mpg, 54.3 for RJ in 34.5mpg) but is that because Randle forces his teammates to pass him the ball or that the offense is run through Randle? The former would be on Randle. The later would be on the coaching staff. What do you guys think it is?

And also note neither guy is ranked in the top 200 in ASPT so I wouldn't consider either player ball hogs in the strictest sense. But the point is that if we are going to call Randle a ball hog and ball stopper then it's hard not to do the same with Barrett and vice versa cause honestly they are back to back in ASPT.

As far as Barrett working better in the flow of an offense and therefore by implication a better player for his teammates own offensive well being? If you look at the Assist % which is the percentage of teammates made field goals that a player assisted with, Julius Randle's assist % was 25.1% while RJ Barret's was 14.9%. Also note that as awful as Julius Randle was last season his overall BPM (Box plus minus when a player is in the game vs when he's on the bench) as well as both OBPM and DBPM were in the positive (0.5 BPM, 0.2 DBPM, 0.4 OBPM) while RJ Barrett's BPM scores were all in the negative (-1.6 BPM, -1.3 DPBM, -0.3 OBPM). I'm pretty sure that the positive numbers are better. What does that mean? That means that the Knicks team (everyone else on the floor) did better when Randle was on the floor than when Barrett was on the floor. Now of course this doesn't account when both guys are on the floor vs only one guy but not the other, but the general gist is there.

So within the context of the two guys, I don't see how you can argue that Barrett was better for the team than Randle despite Randle getting the brunt of the blame (and deservedly so).

Yeah you can argue that Barrett is younger and is getting better. But while yes, he's younger, statistically he didn't get better last season compared to the season before (just like Randle didn't). If anything he also got worse. Not as bad season to season as Randle, but RJ Barrett really didn't improve last season. He got worse as well. In fact you can argue that Barrett got "worser" than Randle in some areas. Now of course you can blame Randle for that (why not right?), but the stats really don't back it up does it (see BPM and assist %)?

This is by no means to excuse Randle for the **** show he put up but Barrett was also doing his own **** show best (he just wasn't as vulgar about it). This is more of a cold water splash on face post. And this is the guy that we may need to look at extending with upwards of $185 million over 5 by some time next season (PS: that's a much bigger extension than we gave Randle). If we are so easy to get rid of Randle I'm not sure we should be so eager to anoint RJ anything nor be eager to give him a big extension.

This above likely is a reason that the Jazz and Ainge reportedly didn't want Barrett. Not because he'd hurt their tank but that, like Randle, his numbers may be deceiving and if you did not good at all to be giving a lot of money to.

Average Bad Decisions (by percentage) Per Touch

RJ Barrett - 9 Percent

Julius Randle -90 Percent

Not according to stats and we love stats don't we, but only when it can be used to argue for something we believe but not for something that we don't believe right?

Post #19 » by **moocow007** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:21 pm

KnicksGadfly wrote:Honestly RJ has a long way to go too. I feel like he's also at a crossroads this next year. He wants to get paid and he wants to take a leap in terms of scoring the basketball. Once he's not on that rookie contract anymore, the expectations rise.

From my end, I was pretty concerned that he focused on 20 ppg, through whatever means necessary. That's not the way to do it. If he improves efficiency, the 20 ppg will come. Beyond that, he needs to continue to grow as a defender and shooter, but he's shown the willingness to work.

Yep I agree.

Post #20 » by **moocow007** » Tue Aug 2, 2022 8:22 pm

stuporman wrote:Let's make an pact that we will leave behind all the beef in previous threads in those and start fresh... who am I kidding, leftover beef is still delicious and we can always have fresh beef if we want, too.

Come on you know better lol. We need to have an updated 2022 Knicks Tour Bus pic in any case.