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So we all agree defense is the main problem so far. Even Thibs sees it had talked about it openly, like again in today's post game conference.

Just want to see what you guys feel is the root of the problem and how it can be corrected.

It's probably a combination of a few things right now, to put it all in perspective:

(1) Not having Mitch defending the rim hurts right now. There's no doubt about it. Hart has been good for us overall, still think he was a good pickup, but he's not the rim protector Mitch is.. Sims neither... So this has got to be part of it.

(2) The collective hustle, intensity, pride and responsibility has got to improve on the defensive end. This is part of the problem too.

(3) BUT... is the main problem the defensive scheme/philosophy/gameplan were going with every game that's the main problem? This one's a little harder to actually see and identify. Right off the bat, we give up way too many good looks from deep.. Now when we play the better shooting teams in the league or even teams that might have a least a couple of top 3-pt shooters, this doesn't bode well for us going in.... I mean over the last couple of years, even guys that aren't great 3-pt shooters are torching us (think Dejounte Murray a few games back--great player--I love this guy and wish he was a Knick, but he's not know for his 3-pt shooting -- or how about Ricky Rubio last year with all those 3s he hit on his way to 37 points).. It's crazy... So is that all on the defensive effort or is it the system that's flawed and doesn't allow the team to be at it's best defensively? Again, this is hard to see, but a lot of times, I feel like a little penetration and then there's a kick-out to a WIDE OPEN shooter. OVER AND OVER AND OVER again... Sometimes it looks like we're scrambling with all the switching that a couple of quick passes, and then there it is again -- wide open 3.

So if you wanted to blame Thibs and his defensive system the most out of anything, how do we correct it exactly? Abandon the switching altogether where everyone is responsible for sticking with their own man and keeping their own guy in front of them? Is that the main adjustment that needs to be made?

A lot of people calling for Thibs' head now -- just curious what everyone sees as far as what's wrong with Thibs' defensive system and what needs to change moving forward.

Bench the players that refuse to play defense. Hold them accountable



If you can’t do that, no adjustments will matter. Let’s not over complicate this. It’s demoralizing to the rest of the team

Hold people accountable when they don't play it...

I don't know if anyone else has said this before, but first you have to hold the players accountable

Sell the team seems most logical.

Fire Thibs.

Hold players accountable.

Never play Fournier ever again, ever.

Put Randle on the bench.

Give Deuce minutes.

Start Grimes.

Give Mitch a senzu bean.


In spurts, Deuce | Grimes | RJ | Obi | Mitch.. but since u can't bench Brun u can make Deuce the first Guard off the bench.

We need to hide Brunson on defense and put Cam on their main point of attack

Starting lineup: Brunson, Grimes, Reddish, Randle, Robinson

The scheme is flawed. To fix it you need to stop the paint collapse on penetrative.

It is too far to get put to contest the three.

The weakside needs one foot on the key, not in the paint. That way they can close out under control when the drivers spray.

Get rid of the drop defence on the pick and roll. The centers are mobile enough to defend laterally along the free throw line. You can hedge and recover.

As long as you flood the paint you're giving up 3s.



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we could fix it by getting better defensive players; novel thought

Not allow 20 open 3s a game.

Edit: I just put that number to exaggerate…only to find out it’s not an exaggeration. This team allows over 20 open 3s a game. Disgusting.

Add top tier talent. Defense doesn’t operate in a vacuum. The Knicks have shown they can play defense. Their problem is that it’s severely inconsistent. My take is that when the other team makes a push they still lack that one flight that everyone else can stand behind that can push back hard and regain the advantage. There is no magical defensive player they can add that will change things unless that defensive player also can be a no.1 option…ergo talent. When the Thunder made their push they made it on the backs of their most talented players. That’s players are more talented than anyone on the Knicks. And the Knicks had no way to counter them. Get that top tier guy then you can afford to move some of the offense centric guys that are porous on D. Right now they can’t afford to not play Brunson, Randle and Barrett (3 guys that are not good defensively) as much as they have to cause they need their offense. You can’t substitute in strong defensive role players cause then they’ll struggle to score when the opposing team is having a good game. If they can manage to trade their draft capital and a few young guys for SGA (who is both a much better defender than most their guards but also a much much more potent offensive player that is also super efficient) then they can possibly follow that up with trading either RJ or Randle for a strong defensive alternative at their respective positions.

prophet_of_rage wrote:The scheme is flawed. To fix it you need to stop the paint collapse on penetrative.

It is too far to get put to contest the three.

The weakside needs one foot on the key, not in the paint. That way they can close out under control when the drivers spray.

Get rid of the drop defence on the pick and roll. The centers are mobile enough to defend laterally along the free throw line. You can hedge and recover.

As long as you flood the paint you're giving up 3s.



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This.

Having 4 guys collapse the paint on every drive is not a recipe for success when the league is flooded with lights out shooters and they have a benefit of getting 1 additional point while being uncontested.

Let the C be responsible for weakside help in the paint. Everyone else should be playing the perimeter and rotating accordingly when playing against a stretch C.

Say what you want about Mitch, but when he's in the game, there are less open 3s

Have the players actually execute the scheme that the coach who has gotten them 2 above average defensive rating seasons lays out for them.

Knicksfan1992 wrote:Have the players actually execute the scheme that the coach who has gotten them 2 above average defensive rating seasons lays out for them.

Get out of the past my man... You're as clueless as Thibs.

He plays drop coverage it's his scheme. U really think this "defensive coach" continues playing guys game after game time out after time out of they're not executing it properly lmao... Yea the problem is execution THATS why we're getting TORCHED from 3 EVERY SINGLE GAME.

U either a Thibs lover or in denial

Thibs benched the wrong guy.
He benched a double digit scorer with good efficiency and maintained the low producing and highly unavailable defenseless defensive anchor Mitch.

Now with one less playable center ,
Mitch is very serviceable as a backup ,
You exposing the newly inserted gleague talent on the perimeter .

Excellent thread.

For a moment I thought the OP would suggest that Daniel Oturu was the solution.

KnixtapeH20 wrote:

Knicksfan1992 wrote:Have the players actually execute the scheme that the coach who has gotten them 2 above average defensive rating seasons lays out for them.

Get out of the past my man... You're as clueless as Thibs.

He plays drop coverage it's his scheme. U really think this "defensive coach" continues playing guys game after game time out after time out of they're not executing it properly lmao... Yea the problem is execution THATS why we're getting TORCHED from 3 EVERY SINGLE GAME.

U either a Thibs lover or in denial

Plenty of teams play drop coverage and have massive success with it... This is fairly the same roster as last year where they were an above average defense.

It's up to the players to execute and they aren't. Randle is debatable worse than last year on that end and Brunson for all the good he does has been a negative defensively.

Now you have Mitch and Grimes not playing or barely playing at all. Those 2 we're supposed to be our 2 best defensive players and I think that's also having a major effect.

I really don't think it's a scheme issue tbh.

Chanel was right about Alec Burks but many don't want to have that conversation lol

bearadonisdna wrote:Thibs benched the wrong guy.
He benched a double digit score with good efficiency and maintained the low producing and highly unavailable defenseless defensive anchor Mitch.

Now with one less playable center ,
Mitch is very serviceable as a backup ,
You exposing the newly inserted gleague talent on the perimeter .

Jesus my man.... Why am I not surprised u cling to guys like Thibs, Fournier n Isiah over Grimes n Mitch.

You're the same guy that said he wouldn't of made ANY changes to the starting lineup after 10 games. It's beyond baffling your view on the game. To say it doesn't make any sense is beyond an understatement. U just called Fournier a high efficient double digit scorer which he has been anything but since the start of the season. The defense has been atrocious since Mitch went down w injury. Isiah can't guard anyone. Sims is a better defender and rebounder yet u call him a G-leaguer.

All these years watching Thibs fried ur brain

Knicksfan1992 wrote:

KnixtapeH20 wrote:

Knicksfan1992 wrote:Have the players actually execute the scheme that the coach who has gotten them 2 above average defensive rating seasons lays out for them.

Get out of the past my man... You're as clueless as Thibs.

He plays drop coverage it's his scheme. U really think this "defensive coach" continues playing guys game after game time out after time out of they're not executing it properly lmao... Yea the problem is execution THATS why we're getting TORCHED from 3 EVERY SINGLE GAME.

U either a Thibs lover or in denial

Plenty of teams play drop coverage and have massive success with it... This is fairly the same roster as last year where they were an above average defense.

It's up to the players to execute and they aren't. Randle is debatable worse than last year on that end and Brunson for all the good he does has been a negative defensively.

Now you have Mitch and Grimes not playing or barely playing at all. Those 2 we're supposed to be our 2 best defensive players and I think that's also having a major effect.

I really don't think it's a scheme issue tbh.

Chanel was right about Alec Burks but many don't want to have that conversation lol

U don't play drop coverage when u have a player like Randle that drops off his guy multiple times per game for literally no reason but to stand under the rim like he wants to get a 3 second violation n leave a wide open 3.

Guys are running track out there bc they're constantly swarming the ball, helping eachother n sagging towards the paint.... If you're saying the scheme can work w different players yea no kidding lol. That's the problem w Thibs he just continues his same baseless coaching no matter the results.

Calling him a fossil isn't a diss. It's a reality. His ability to coach has left him years ago. Even his buddy JVG knows he will never get another coaching job in the league after he's outta here

1) We know that we will not trade Brunson/RJ/Randle for assets. We will not tank or get weaker. I think the Front Office would trade them only to get better players by packaging them along with picks. But it is hard to find good options available. Perhaps, even Donovan would not be a good fit, because he is also a below-average defender (especially as an SG).

2) Getting Grimes into the rotation is a must.

3) Fournier is the odd man out. The second unit is very ofensive-minded. We need D. We can not be worried about showcasing him to recover the investment. It is a sunk cost. We can use his contract as an expiring next season or just buy him out now. It's nonsense to give assets to dump him if we do not need the cap space or to run from taxes.

4) Mitch needs to be the starter because our best defensive option.

5) We need stop to packing the paint and overhelping while letting shooters wide open. The opponent's team know how to beat us. It looks like we are the second worse team in opponent wide-open 3s. We give opponents almost 21 wide-open 3s attempts a game. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent-shots-closest-defender?CloseDefDistRange=6%20%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open&dir=D&sort=FG3A