2023-24 NY Knicks trade ideas, Part 3

[Jeff Van Gully]

We almost hit 100 pages in like 15 days.

Part 2 - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2344984

Part 1 - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2324374

[cgf]

LaVine is a classic old CBA player

big contract
incapable of staying healthy and doing more than the one thing on the floor

sure teams like Miami might take a gamble on him for a win now run or even Philly but hes not seen as worth his contract or worth assets

Id bet the lakers could get him for matching salary but wont

Lavine's contract makes him an unrealistic target for us to acquire, but people need to stop repeating these myths about his game.

Lavine misses just a few more games than Brunson, he's dangerous both on-ball & off-ball, his playmaking is on par with Brundle's, and his defense is just as good as Brunson / Booker / Randle's...even better according to some metrics; IIRC EPM has him as a slight positive defensively.

% games played by year:

2014-15: 94%
2015-16: 100%
2016-17: Torn ACL
2017-18: Recover from torn ACL
2018-19: 77% (sat final 10 games along with other veterans as Bulls looked to secure a higher pick)
2019-20: 92%
2020-21: 80%*
2021-22: 82%*
2022-23: 94%

*He got Covid in both the 2021 & 2022 seasons


The dude is expensive and the Bulls' FO might be even more delusional about their players' value than Masai, but the dude doesn't miss as much time as people pretend he does. He's not as bad defensively as people like to claim. He's not a ballstopper / ballhog. He's just a 2nd/3rd option who has never gotten to play on a team with someone clearly better than him. The only time in his career he got to play with an above average starting PG, his team was in 1st.


Again, not gunna be a knick, but he's not the player that his reputation suggests he is either.

[cgf]

Are Michael Scotto & Dan Woike the only people who have claimed we are interested in Murray? I think these are the only sources for that rumor.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-trade-deadline-preview-knicks-lakers-warriors-nets-rockets-raptors-hawks-pistons/
https://www.latimes.com/sports/newsletter/2024-01-13/where-things-stand-with-the-lakers-heading-into-trade-season-lakers


Has anyone credible picked it up? I think the only thing the big boys (Woj or Shams) have reported has been about our optimism wrt to Mitch & our interest in Gafford:

Watch on YouTube

Am I missing any other solid links about our TDL plans?

[sol537]

Fournier + pick for Olynyk + Dunn

Or

Fournier + Grimes + Mitch + picks for Murray and Capela

Let’s goooooo

[Jalen Bluntson]

LaVine is a classic old CBA player

big contract
incapable of staying healthy and doing more than the one thing on the floor

sure teams like Miami might take a gamble on him for a win now run or even Philly but hes not seen as worth his contract or worth assets

Id bet the lakers could get him for matching salary but wont

Lavine's contract makes him an unrealistic target for us to acquire, but people need to stop repeating these myths about his game.

Lavine misses just a few more games than Brunson, he's dangerous both on-ball & off-ball, his playmaking is on par with Brundle's, and his defense is just as good as Brunson / Booker / Randle's...even better according to some metrics; IIRC EPM has him as a slight positive defensively.

% games played by year:

2014-15: 94%
2015-16: 100%
2016-17: Torn ACL
2017-18: Recover from torn ACL
2018-19: 77% (sat final 10 games along with other veterans as Bulls looked to secure a higher pick)
2019-20: 92%
2020-21: 80%*
2021-22: 82%*
2022-23: 94%

*He got Covid in both the 2021 & 2022 seasons


The dude is expensive and the Bulls' FO might be even more delusional about their players' value than Masai, but the dude doesn't miss as much time as people pretend he does. He's not as bad defensively as people like to claim. He's not a ballstopper / ballhog. He's just a 2nd/3rd option who has never gotten to play on a team with someone clearly better than him. The only time in his career he got to play with an above average starting PG, his team was in 1st.


Again, not gunna be a knick, but he's not the player that his reputation suggests he is either.

His reputation suggests he isn't worth his contract. That's all that matters. Chicago is in salary dump territory with him. End of story.

[cgf]

LaVine is a classic old CBA player

big contract
incapable of staying healthy and doing more than the one thing on the floor

sure teams like Miami might take a gamble on him for a win now run or even Philly but hes not seen as worth his contract or worth assets

Id bet the lakers could get him for matching salary but wont

Lavine's contract makes him an unrealistic target for us to acquire, but people need to stop repeating these myths about his game.

Lavine misses just a few more games than Brunson, he's dangerous both on-ball & off-ball, his playmaking is on par with Brundle's, and his defense is just as good as Brunson / Booker / Randle's...even better according to some metrics; IIRC EPM has him as a slight positive defensively.

% games played by year:

2014-15: 94%
2015-16: 100%
2016-17: Torn ACL
2017-18: Recover from torn ACL
2018-19: 77% (sat final 10 games along with other veterans as Bulls looked to secure a higher pick)
2019-20: 92%
2020-21: 80%*
2021-22: 82%*
2022-23: 94%

*He got Covid in both the 2021 & 2022 seasons


The dude is expensive and the Bulls' FO might be even more delusional about their players' value than Masai, but the dude doesn't miss as much time as people pretend he does. He's not as bad defensively as people like to claim. He's not a ballstopper / ballhog. He's just a 2nd/3rd option who has never gotten to play on a team with someone clearly better than him. The only time in his career he got to play with an above average starting PG, his team was in 1st.


Again, not gunna be a knick, but he's not the player that his reputation suggests he is either.

His reputation suggests he isn't worth his contract. That's all that matters. Chicago is in salary dump territory with him. End of story.

LeBron friendly sources are saying that Chicago should just dump his salary at a time when LeBron desperately needs someone like Lavine and the Lakers have very limited assets. Chicago sources say the Bulls want multiple FRPs to even discuss giving Lavine up.

People that don't know much about the Bulls say the 2nd apron will force them to move Lavine, but they have plenty of money to bring back DeMar & Pat without even being a tax team, much less a super-Tax team.

The NBA media is pushing for the Bulls to gift him to the Lakers because the Bulls are a play-in team and LeBron needs help, but that doesn't make the slander true.

http://spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2024/

[Deeeez Knicks]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

[cgf]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

Again the contract & his desire to play with LeBron make him an unrealistic target for us

But his game would be an ideal fit for our needs as a 3rd option who could play off Brundle & beat up on bench guys when they rested; he doesn't miss much more time to injuries than Brunson does (see above), and the Bulls have looked even better since he got back...10-8 w/o Lavine, 4-1 since his return.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Lavine's contract makes him an unrealistic target for us to acquire, but people need to stop repeating these myths about his game.

Lavine misses just a few more games than Brunson, he's dangerous both on-ball & off-ball, his playmaking is on par with Brundle's, and his defense is just as good as Brunson / Booker / Randle's...even better according to some metrics; IIRC EPM has him as a slight positive defensively.



*He got Covid in both the 2021 & 2022 seasons


The dude is expensive and the Bulls' FO might be even more delusional about their players' value than Masai, but the dude doesn't miss as much time as people pretend he does. He's not as bad defensively as people like to claim. He's not a ballstopper / ballhog. He's just a 2nd/3rd option who has never gotten to play on a team with someone clearly better than him. The only time in his career he got to play with an above average starting PG, his team was in 1st.


Again, not gunna be a knick, but he's not the player that his reputation suggests he is either.

His reputation suggests he isn't worth his contract. That's all that matters. Chicago is in salary dump territory with him. End of story.

LeBron friendly sources are saying that Chicago should just dump his salary at a time when LeBron desperately needs someone like Lavine and the Lakers have very limited assets. Chicago sources say the Bulls want multiple FRPs to even discuss giving Lavine up.

People that don't know much about the Bulls say the 2nd apron will force them to move Lavine, but they have plenty of money to bring back DeMar & Pat without even being a tax team, much less a super-Tax team.

The NBA media is pushing for the Bulls to gift him to the Lakers because the Bulls are a play-in team and LeBron needs help, but that doesn't make the slander true.

http://spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2024/

No. You really will have a difficult task trying to find anybody in the league or the media or any fan base(except you) that think he's worth 44-50mil over the next few years. It's got ZERO to do with he Lakers or LeBron.

[KnixinSix]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

I don't think most realize just how BIG an impact the CBA is going to make on who is a good contract or not.

1 way high scoring guys who can't play D are not going to be in desire if they have long term 40+M AAV dollar contracts.

This is the Lavine conundrum.

Its why nobody wants that financial burden on their books yet a guy like Murray even though not perfect is more in demand due to a much more manageable 23 ish M dollar contract.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

Again the contract & his desire to play with LeBron make him an unrealistic target for us

But his game would be an ideal fit for our needs as a 3rd option who could play off Brundle & beat up on bench guys when they rested; he doesn't miss much more time to injuries than Brunson does (see above), and the Bulls have looked even better since he got back...10-8 w/o Lavine, 4-1 since his return.

The issues with Lavines fit is on the defensive end. We see it on the Bulls with him and Derozan together. It’s tough to have 3 bad defenders that teams can target in the playoffs. His contract is a killer. Trading for his contract would basically cap our ceiling and doom the Knicks.

[cgf]

His reputation suggests he isn't worth his contract. That's all that matters. Chicago is in salary dump territory with him. End of story.

LeBron friendly sources are saying that Chicago should just dump his salary at a time when LeBron desperately needs someone like Lavine and the Lakers have very limited assets. Chicago sources say the Bulls want multiple FRPs to even discuss giving Lavine up.

People that don't know much about the Bulls say the 2nd apron will force them to move Lavine, but they have plenty of money to bring back DeMar & Pat without even being a tax team, much less a super-Tax team.

The NBA media is pushing for the Bulls to gift him to the Lakers because the Bulls are a play-in team and LeBron needs help, but that doesn't make the slander true.

http://spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2024/

No. You really will have a difficult task trying to find anybody in the league or the media or any fan base(except you) that think he's worth 44-50mil over the next few years. It's got ZERO to do with he Lakers or LeBron.

You're missing my point. The Bulls don't want to trade him, so his value around the league doesn't matter. It's like when people were saying at the start of the season that we should use our picks to dump Randle because nobody wanted him.

What someone will pay for a player only matters if their team wants to move them. All of the reports from sources connected to the Bulls have said that the Bulls FO has no interest in selling him, and people saying the 2nd apron will force them just haven't looked at the Bulls capsheet.

[KnixinSix]

His reputation suggests he isn't worth his contract. That's all that matters. Chicago is in salary dump territory with him. End of story.

LeBron friendly sources are saying that Chicago should just dump his salary at a time when LeBron desperately needs someone like Lavine and the Lakers have very limited assets. Chicago sources say the Bulls want multiple FRPs to even discuss giving Lavine up.

People that don't know much about the Bulls say the 2nd apron will force them to move Lavine, but they have plenty of money to bring back DeMar & Pat without even being a tax team, much less a super-Tax team.

The NBA media is pushing for the Bulls to gift him to the Lakers because the Bulls are a play-in team and LeBron needs help, but that doesn't make the slander true.

http://spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2024/

No. You really will have a difficult task trying to find anybody in the league or the media or any fan base(except you) that think he's worth 44-50mil over the next few years. It's got ZERO to do with he Lakers or LeBron.

Considering LeBrons age and how the Lakers are desperate to shake things up to get a better team for Lebron it wouldn't surprise me if he goes to LA in essentially a salary dump type trade Rui and Dlo and one or two of their weak FRPs. They keep Austin Reaves.

[cgf]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

Again the contract & his desire to play with LeBron make him an unrealistic target for us

But his game would be an ideal fit for our needs as a 3rd option who could play off Brundle & beat up on bench guys when they rested; he doesn't miss much more time to injuries than Brunson does (see above), and the Bulls have looked even better since he got back...10-8 w/o Lavine, 4-1 since his return.

The issues with Lavines fit is on the defensive end. We see it on the Bulls with him and Derozan together. It’s tough to have 3 bad defenders that teams can target in the playoffs. His contract is a killer. Trading for his contract would basically cap our ceiling and doom the Knicks.

That's exaggerated as well. The Bulls had a top 5 defense just last season, despite Vucevic "protecting" the rim behind Lavine & DeRozan, because Zach and DDR just aren't that bad defensively.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?Season=2022-23&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Lavine
-1.1 D-RAPTOR, -0.73 D-DARKO, +0.3 D-EPM
Brunson
-1.0 D-RAPTOR, -1.14 D-DARKO, -0.8 D-EPM
Booker
-0.4 D-RAPTOR, -0.9 D-DARKO, -0.7 D-EPM
Randle
-1.3 D-RAPTOR, -0.73 D-DARKO, -0.0 D-EPM

RAPTOR stats from last season, DARKO & EPM #s from this season.


This isn't Trae & DJM we're talking about.
Young
-0.9 D-RAPTOR, -2.0 D-DARKO, -0.9 D-EPM
Murray
-1.1 D-RAPTOR, -1.52 D-DARKO, -0.5 D-EPM

[Jalen Bluntson]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

I don't think most realize just how BIG an impact the CBA is going to make on who is a good contract or not.

1 way high scoring guys who can't play D are not going to be in desire if they have long term 40+M AAV dollar contracts.

This is the Lavine conundrum.

Its why nobody wants that financial burden on their books yet a guy like Murray even though not perfect is more in demand due to a much more manageable 23 ish M dollar contract.

Randle/Brunson/Mitch/iHart/Deuce/DDV/Grimes are some of the best value contracts in the league. All play in the rotation on a playoff level team. All have trade value.

LaVine...no one wants that contract on their books.

[Jalen Bluntson]

LeBron friendly sources are saying that Chicago should just dump his salary at a time when LeBron desperately needs someone like Lavine and the Lakers have very limited assets. Chicago sources say the Bulls want multiple FRPs to even discuss giving Lavine up.

People that don't know much about the Bulls say the 2nd apron will force them to move Lavine, but they have plenty of money to bring back DeMar & Pat without even being a tax team, much less a super-Tax team.

The NBA media is pushing for the Bulls to gift him to the Lakers because the Bulls are a play-in team and LeBron needs help, but that doesn't make the slander true.

http://spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2024/

No. You really will have a difficult task trying to find anybody in the league or the media or any fan base(except you) that think he's worth 44-50mil over the next few years. It's got ZERO to do with he Lakers or LeBron.

Considering LeBrons age and how the Lakers are desperate to shake things up to get a better team for Lebron it wouldn't surprise me if he goes to LA in essentially a salary dump type trade Rui and Dlo and one or two of their weak FRPs. They keep Austin Reaves.

That has nothing to do with my point though.

[cgf]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

I don't think most realize just how BIG an impact the CBA is going to make on who is a good contract or not.

1 way high scoring guys who can't play D are not going to be in desire if they have long term 40+M AAV dollar contracts.

This is the Lavine conundrum.

Its why nobody wants that financial burden on their books yet a guy like Murray even though not perfect is more in demand due to a much more manageable 23 ish M dollar contract.

Randle/Brunson/Mitch/iHart/Deuce/DDV/Grimes are some of the best value contracts in the league. All play in the rotation on a playoff level team. All have trade value.

LaVine...no one wants that contract on their books.

*No one except for the team that already has him on their books.

[KnixinSix]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

I don't think most realize just how BIG an impact the CBA is going to make on who is a good contract or not.

1 way high scoring guys who can't play D are not going to be in desire if they have long term 40+M AAV dollar contracts.

This is the Lavine conundrum.

Its why nobody wants that financial burden on their books yet a guy like Murray even though not perfect is more in demand due to a much more manageable 23 ish M dollar contract.

Randle/Brunson/Mitch/iHart/Deuce/DDV/Grimes are some of the best value contracts in the league. All play in the rotation on a playoff level team. All have trade value.

LaVine...no one wants that contract on their books.

At least not with giving up much to get him and/or a bit of a salary dump back of their own.

[cgf]

Hard pass on Lavine….between the contract, the fit, the injuries….not worth it for the Knicks.

The bulls have looked better without him too.

I don't think most realize just how BIG an impact the CBA is going to make on who is a good contract or not.

1 way high scoring guys who can't play D are not going to be in desire if they have long term 40+M AAV dollar contracts.

This is the Lavine conundrum.

Its why nobody wants that financial burden on their books yet a guy like Murray even though not perfect is more in demand due to a much more manageable 23 ish M dollar contract.

Why do you repeating this when you know that the new rules will have zero impact on Lavine and the Bulls this summer? Do you not understand the new rules, or do you just want other teams to be forced to give up talent for capreasons too much to care about the facts?

Chicago can afford to re-sign DeRozan & Williams, without the 2nd apron becoming a concern. They won't need to dump Lavine no matter how many times you say they will.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2024/



BTW were you able to find a credible link for the IQ-DJM rumor? Or just people going off Scotto & Woike's speculation?

[Riot Randolph]

LeBron friendly sources are saying that Chicago should just dump his salary at a time when LeBron desperately needs someone like Lavine and the Lakers have very limited assets. Chicago sources say the Bulls want multiple FRPs to even discuss giving Lavine up.

People that don't know much about the Bulls say the 2nd apron will force them to move Lavine, but they have plenty of money to bring back DeMar & Pat without even being a tax team, much less a super-Tax team.

The NBA media is pushing for the Bulls to gift him to the Lakers because the Bulls are a play-in team and LeBron needs help, but that doesn't make the slander true.

http://spotrac.com/nba/chicago-bulls/cap/2024/

No. You really will have a difficult task trying to find anybody in the league or the media or any fan base(except you) that think he's worth 44-50mil over the next few years. It's got ZERO to do with he Lakers or LeBron.

Considering LeBrons age and how the Lakers are desperate to shake things up to get a better team for Lebron it wouldn't surprise me if he goes to LA in essentially a salary dump type trade Rui and Dlo and one or two of their weak FRPs. They keep Austin Reaves.

Seth curry makes more sense for them….Kidd hates him