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Is Thibs the only bridge left to cross?

Given that outside Steph and LeBron, who are even in play this year for a championship, no one I can remember recently has more than even ONE title. Jokic and Giannis are great players. But one title apiece. Embid ZERO (and we hate on him anyway). Lillard, ha!

Suppose KAT was Leon's shot at THE STAR, but the CHAMP STARS are really just Steph and LeBron. And their near stars Giannis and Jokic. Like modern day NOWITZKIs.

So unless KAT morphs into LUCKY KAT, NOBODY we add could give us a 50-50 or even 25-75 shot at the title.

Could a more modern coach? Could a more offensive (not just iso coach? Could a coach who guards the 3pt line? (or even adding a 2 way center like IHART help push a Thibs over the line if everyone was healthy?

Last night, we could have fouled them up 3 with 11 seconds to go and probably won the game. But Thibs.

However, Thibs on the plus side somehow still inspires the team. Remember the FIZDALEs. So a change would be RISKY. At what point do we risk it? Or just hope to luck out with an overlooked Giannis/Jokic in the draft to reach the winner's circle?

Fire Thibs
Trade Hart
Improve Shamet & Payne

Profit

"At what point do you risk it"

This is the million dollar question. And honestly? Only when you have a key replacement in mind and already on the staff (think Bulls going from Doug Collins to Phil Jackson).

Whatever you want to say about Thibs, it seems like the players do like him and are behind him. Knicks aren't in the same position as the Grizzlies or Nuggets. And that is a good thing.

Also, get Durant this summer.

Thibs needs to go? I wonder why we haven't had this discussion before?

8516knicks wrote:Is Thibs the only bridge left to cross?

Given that outside Steph and LeBron, who are even in play this year for a championship, no one I can remember recently has more than even ONE title. Jokic and Giannis are great players. But one title apiece. Embid ZERO (and we hate on him anyway). Lillard, ha!

Suppose KAT was Leon's shot at THE STAR, but the CHAMP STARS are really just Steph and LeBron. And their near stars Giannis and Jokic. Like modern day NOWITZKIs.

So unless KAT morphs into LUCKY KAT, NOBODY we add could give us a 50-50 or even 25-75 shot at the title.

Could a more modern coach? Could a more offensive (not just iso coach? Could a coach who guards the 3pt line? (or even adding a 2 way center like IHART help push a Thibs over the line if everyone was healthy?

Last night, we could have fouled them up 3 with 11 seconds to go and probably won the game. But Thibs.

However, Thibs on the plus side somehow still inspires the team. Remember the FIZDALEs. So a change would be RISKY. At what point do we risk it? Or just hope to luck out with an overlooked Giannis/Jokic in the draft to reach the winner's circle?

It honestly confuses me how a GM and coach can seemingly be in lockstep and have such an obvious mismatch in terms of roster creation and on-court needs.
Towns should play the 4, and we need to have multiple 5's ready to wheel in.
That year we lost against the Hawks, we lost Mitch, Noel was playing well, but got hurt game 1, never looked the same, then we had old Taj and IIRC maybe we had rookie Sims? We just ran out of bodies.

I say that to say I don't know if another coach can get more out of our pieces.
JB has been amazing for us, but I don't know how he does in another system. josh hart might be a nobody, a 8th man, situational role player, if he is on another team.

We don't want to lose what we have at the moment, but it would be naive to think Thibs can evolve more than he has.

I think the best thing that can happen for us, to some extent, would be if we won the first round, and got completely smacked in the 2nd, like 4-0, 4-1, 3 games not even competitive. Then Thibs/Rose would be forced to make a change.

8516knicks wrote:Is Thibs the only bridge left to cross?

Given that outside Steph and LeBron, who are even in play this year for a championship, no one I can remember recently has more than even ONE title. Jokic and Giannis are great players. But one title apiece. Embid ZERO (and we hate on him anyway). Lillard, ha!

Suppose KAT was Leon's shot at THE STAR, but the CHAMP STARS are really just Steph and LeBron. And their near stars Giannis and Jokic. Like modern day NOWITZKIs.

So unless KAT morphs into LUCKY KAT, NOBODY we add could give us a 50-50 or even 25-75 shot at the title.

Could a more modern coach? Could a more offensive (not just iso coach? Could a coach who guards the 3pt line? (or even adding a 2 way center like IHART help push a Thibs over the line if everyone was healthy?

Last night, we could have fouled them up 3 with 11 seconds to go and probably won the game. But Thibs.

However, Thibs on the plus side somehow still inspires the team. Remember the FIZDALEs. So a change would be RISKY. At what point do we risk it? Or just hope to luck out with an overlooked Giannis/Jokic in the draft to reach the winner's circle?

If you ask certain people, we added the wrong players and only they knew who to get. Ask them who specifically and they can’t tell

Ask for names other than Giannis and it’ll be wild. Randle, LaVine, Donovan Mitchell… truly names that really guarantee championships. KD is also a favorite… he’s really one to absolutely guarantee you a championship.

But you’re right. There are no such players. I’d say Edwards, but the Wolves aren’t close either.

Championship teams usually have a higher collective IQ than most to add to their collective talent.
We're about even with most teams in collective talent, but not collective IQ.

Just have to bring in smarter pieces that are just as talented as the pieces going out.

Coaching matters too. Mazulla in-game IQ let's say is a 9 and Thibs is a 6. We're already 3 points down.

FYI, this is just a thought exercise to prove my point. Nothing here is literal.

Celtics collective IQ
Coach = 9
Tatum = 8
Brown = 8
Porzingis = 7
White = 8
Holiday = 7
Total = 47

Knicks collective IQ
Coach = 6
Brunson = 9
KAT = 6
Bridges = 8
Anunoby = 7
Hart = 7
Total = 43

So although the collective talent level is probably closer to equal between the Celtics and Knicks, the collective IQ falls short. This matters come playoff time.

Jalen Bluntson wrote:Thibs needs to go? I wonder why we haven't had this discussion before?

It's more like is that the ONLY thing that can possibly be done by Leon (within the realm of reality).

CometGM wrote:Championship teams usually have a higher collective IQ than most to add to their collective talent.
We're about even with most teams in collective talent, but not collective IQ.

Just have to bring in smarter pieces that are just as talented as the pieces going out.

Coaching matters too. Mazulla in-game IQ let's say is a 9 and Thibs is a 6. We're already 3 points down.

FYI, this is just a thought exercise to prove my point. Nothing here is literal.

Celtics collective IQ
Coach = 9
Tatum = 8
Brown = 8
Porzingis = 7
White = 8
Holiday = 7
Total = 47

Knicks collective IQ
Coach = 6
Brunson = 9
KAT = 6
Bridges = 8
Anunoby = 7
Hart = 7
Total = 43

So although the collective talent level is probably closer to equal between the Celtics and Knicks, the collective IQ falls short. This matters come playoff time.

What's your best guess on points per game difference in a short series between Thibs and a more modern, thoughtful coach? Probably the modern guy gets at least a few points, but how much greater could the difference be (swith Thib and Mazzula to opposite teams in a thought experiment)

8516knicks wrote:

CometGM wrote:Championship teams usually have a higher collective IQ than most to add to their collective talent.
We're about even with most teams in collective talent, but not collective IQ.

Just have to bring in smarter pieces that are just as talented as the pieces going out.

Coaching matters too. Mazulla in-game IQ let's say is a 9 and Thibs is a 6. We're already 3 points down.

FYI, this is just a thought exercise to prove my point. Nothing here is literal.

Celtics collective IQ
Coach = 9
Tatum = 8
Brown = 8
Porzingis = 7
White = 8
Holiday = 7
Total = 47

Knicks collective IQ
Coach = 6
Brunson = 9
KAT = 6
Bridges = 8
Anunoby = 7
Hart = 7
Total = 43

So although the collective talent level is probably closer to equal between the Celtics and Knicks, the collective IQ falls short. This matters come playoff time.

What's your best guess on points per game difference in a short series between Thibs and a more modern, thoughtful coach? Probably the modern guy gets at least a few points, but how much greater could the difference be (swith Thib and Mazzula to opposite teams in a thought experiment)

Younger coaches just try different things because they're not dogmatic yet, obviously in 15 years they'll be the guys unwilling to change though, because that's just how it goes. Thibs was a pioneer at one point with ICE, but the league adapted to that and has left that behind.

If they switched teams, you'd see the Celtics shot profile flip, instead of hunting threes the Celtics would be using the same spots on the floor we used with Randle, it would be Tatum & KP in that spot. They'd have a junk offense that relies purely on isolations, offensive rebounds and Tatum would probably have great numbers but the team wouldn't play anything like it does now.

Mazzulla here? We probably see Deuce in the starting lineup instead of Hart, and they'd eventually trade Hart like they did Marcus Smart, because he just wasn't a reliable enough three point shooter. We'd take a lot more threes, Mitch and KAT would play together more, you'd see Mitch guarding the worst shooter in lineups a lot while KAT takes the more perimeter oriented slower wing/big. We'd play zone occassionally to throw teams off, because the Celitcs do that despite all their defenders, because it makes a team pause, we don't ever run zone. The Thunder will play zone and in the same possession switch to man to man, that is the type of stuff more modern coaches do, anything to throw a wrench in your plans to make you pause for a second.

8516knicks wrote:

CometGM wrote:Championship teams usually have a higher collective IQ than most to add to their collective talent.
We're about even with most teams in collective talent, but not collective IQ.

Just have to bring in smarter pieces that are just as talented as the pieces going out.

Coaching matters too. Mazulla in-game IQ let's say is a 9 and Thibs is a 6. We're already 3 points down.

FYI, this is just a thought exercise to prove my point. Nothing here is literal.

Celtics collective IQ
Coach = 9
Tatum = 8
Brown = 8
Porzingis = 7
White = 8
Holiday = 7
Total = 47

Knicks collective IQ
Coach = 6
Brunson = 9
KAT = 6
Bridges = 8
Anunoby = 7
Hart = 7
Total = 43

So although the collective talent level is probably closer to equal between the Celtics and Knicks, the collective IQ falls short. This matters come playoff time.

What's your best guess on points per game difference in a short series between Thibs and a more modern, thoughtful coach? Probably the modern guy gets at least a few points, but how much greater could the difference be (swith Thib and Mazzula to opposite teams in a thought experiment)

Not sure about points per game, that's tough to say but i'm sure that will improve. In general i'll have more confidence in lineups, and when things get tight we're running things as efficiently as possible.

We knew going into the season we didn't have key rim protector Mitch for half-3/4 of the regular season and our rotation wasn't going to be super deep as a result. With a full mostly healthy squad, i think we would've won 55-60 games (and ironically, still the #3 seed) and we'd all be singing their praises.

If we learned anything the last few years, it's roster/coach/GM continuity is critical to building a winning team, and I'd preach that we should continue to be patient (ala Boston Celtics). I have faith our Leon will continue to fortify the roster in the offseason, and we will be in a great position next year (and don't forget, we still got a good shot THIS year!). All you can ask for, in my humble opinion.

TLDR:
Don't fire Thibs. Look to add depth next year.
Less likely, upgrade Mitch to a more reliable rim protector (despite his injury risk, there aren't many players like him; the block he has on Tatum's 3 the other day got me outta my seat! Jaren Jackson Jr would be the prototype.
Total long shot: Giannis becomes available, may require Towns, one of OG/Mikal, Deuce, any other assets we have (another future pick that unlocks? the 3 rookies?)
My wet dream: acquire Giannis while keeping Towns and Brunson.

We need to see what happens in the playoffs before we can say. We are a talented 50 win team, post mortems like this like the season is over every time we lose a regular season game is a bit disappointing

Anyway IF we don’t look good in the playoffs, the only things to do could be find a new coach but also try to fix our terrible bench depth. We don’t have assets and I don’t expect a magical star add. Our bench is very very very bad. There’s a lot of room for improvement there. Changing the coach isn’t a guarantee the team will be better either if they end up picking the wrong guy. If we look solid in the playoffs I wouldn’t be opposed to just running it back with some small tweaks to the bench depth but again we have to see what happens. I don’t anticipate the big names are going anywhere

Also as always I’d try to trade Mitch