Is this a trend? (guard pickups)

[8516knicks]

Elfrid Payton. Kemba Walker. Fournier. Cam Payne. Jordan Clarkson.

Is the flaw in the Knick's FO?

Going for veteran guards on cheap deals who score double figures (in the past) but are either washed or don't play D? Like someone tasked with it just looked up their ESPN stats without watching them play? As long as they're "cheap" and perceived to be a bargain?

If Clarkson doesn't pan out this season, they can't lay it on Thibs anymore.

[thebuzzardman]

I think the circumstances and perceptions and expectations around each of those guards was somewhat different.

Elf was still young. I think the Knicks were being mindful of the long term cap, but wanted the point of attack defense and ability to get to the rim. Valued it over ability to shoot, unfortunately. I think this is a case where Thibs "got his guy"

Kemba was someone WWW pushed for and a real fail. The hope was he had something left in the tank, but he was done. Also bad match for the coach. The only truly washed player on the list.

Fournier was another pro player scouting fail/Thibs mismatch, but they saw a player who scored about 17 ppg, hit 3's a good % at good volume and could provide some tertiary/secondary playmaking and figured it would work. Not the worst idea until the player become entrenched in the Thibs doghouse.
Not washed, just not that good.

Payne was fine. His defense wasn't that bad. He was signed for the vet minimum and provided what guys like that provide. Sometimes they light it up, sometimes they don't. More a gunner than point, but there are plenty of those guys who play in the league. Might have annoyed fans who wanted more from Payne than he's ever been in his career. Wasn't washed.

Clarkson. TBD, but probably about like Payne. With some more offense but less defense. Again, that's what the vet minimum gets you.

[Polk377]

Difference is that all of the other players minus Payne was brought in to be starters with unrealistic expectations since they were bench level producers at that point. Clarkson has been a 6th man for a while now. You know exactly what to expect from him and how he plays. It was a value pickup that otherwise they couldn't afford on the market with their cap situation.

[Richard4444]

About Clarkson and Cam signings: We need cheap rotation players because the roster is expensive, and the CBA is restrictive. Our 6 players' core accounts for 185M (89%) of our second apron space (207.8 M). Our 8 players' core eats 195M (94%) of our second apron space. We have to get creative.

Fournier was a relatively expensive player. Only he was not very good. Especially in the Thibs system.

Payton was the best free-agent PG that we could attract at that time.

Kemba was an opportunistic deal. Shame he was washed;

[spree2kawhi]

Every NBA team claims players off the waiver wire every year.

[nykballa2k4]

Elfrid Payton. Kemba Walker. Fournier. Cam Payne. Jordan Clarkson.

Is the flaw in the Knick's FO?

Going for veteran guards on cheap deals who score double figures (in the past) but are either washed or don't play D? Like someone tasked with it just looked up their ESPN stats without watching them play? As long as they're "cheap" and perceived to be a bargain?

If Clarkson doesn't pan out this season, they can't lay it on Thibs anymore.

When you are adding to the bench, this is what it looks like.
Elf still playing.
Kemba had to retire.
Cam is a journeyman, probably will wind up on the Bucks or something and have a few good games like he always does.
Unless you want to trade Mitch for a pg and then we have a different hole or you want to break OG into two lesser players, this and hoping Kolek takes a step is the way.

[Moose]

I think the circumstances and perceptions and expectations around each of those guards was somewhat different.

Elf was still young. I think the Knicks were being mindful of the long term cap, but wanted the point of attack defense and ability to get to the rim. Valued it over ability to shoot, unfortunately. I think this is a case where Thibs "got his guy"

Kemba was someone WWW pushed for and a real fail. The hope was he had something left in the tank, but he was done. Also bad match for the coach. The only truly washed player on the list.

Fournier was another pro player scouting fail/Thibs mismatch, but they saw a player who scored about 17 ppg, hit 3's a good % at good volume and could provide some tertiary/secondary playmaking and figured it would work. Not the worst idea until the player become entrenched in the Thibs doghouse.
Not washed, just not that good.

Payne was fine. His defense wasn't that bad. He was signed for the vet minimum and provided what guys like that provide. Sometimes they light it up, sometimes they don't. More a gunner than point, but there are plenty of those guys who play in the league. Might have annoyed fans who wanted more from Payne than he's ever been in his career. Wasn't washed.

Clarkson. TBD, but probably about like Payne. With some more offense but less defense. Again, that's what the vet minimum gets you.

This is not meant as a shot, but I prefer this type of commentary than your troll posts. It's not a bad bit, but this is more appreciated.

[Gravy]

It's extremely difficult to find good point guards that's why I appreciate Brunson even more. He isos to much for some people and he don't pass like cp3 but he's far better than pgs we had in 20 years.

Kolek is a fan favorite he needs to prove he can be in the rotation and do well in summer league.

[HarthorneWingo]

I think the circumstances and perceptions and expectations around each of those guards was somewhat different.

Elf was still young. I think the Knicks were being mindful of the long term cap, but wanted the point of attack defense and ability to get to the rim. Valued it over ability to shoot, unfortunately. I think this is a case where Thibs "got his guy"

Kemba was someone WWW pushed for and a real fail. The hope was he had something left in the tank, but he was done. Also bad match for the coach. The only truly washed player on the list.

Fournier was another pro player scouting fail/Thibs mismatch, but they saw a player who scored about 17 ppg, hit 3's a good % at good volume and could provide some tertiary/secondary playmaking and figured it would work. Not the worst idea until the player become entrenched in the Thibs doghouse.
Not washed, just not that good.

Payne was fine. His defense wasn't that bad. He was signed for the vet minimum and provided what guys like that provide. Sometimes they light it up, sometimes they don't. More a gunner than point, but there are plenty of those guys who play in the league. Might have annoyed fans who wanted more from Payne than he's ever been in his career. Wasn't washed.

Clarkson. TBD, but probably about like Payne. With some more offense but less defense. Again, that's what the vet minimum gets you.

I did not know that. Has WWW contributed anything positive to our front office? If so, I'm not aware of it.

[RHODEY]

I think the circumstances and perceptions and expectations around each of those guards was somewhat different.

Elf was still young. I think the Knicks were being mindful of the long term cap, but wanted the point of attack defense and ability to get to the rim. Valued it over ability to shoot, unfortunately. I think this is a case where Thibs "got his guy"

Kemba was someone WWW pushed for and a real fail. The hope was he had something left in the tank, but he was done. Also bad match for the coach. The only truly washed player on the list.

Fournier was another pro player scouting fail/Thibs mismatch, but they saw a player who scored about 17 ppg, hit 3's a good % at good volume and could provide some tertiary/secondary playmaking and figured it would work. Not the worst idea until the player become entrenched in the Thibs doghouse.
Not washed, just not that good.

Payne was fine. His defense wasn't that bad. He was signed for the vet minimum and provided what guys like that provide. Sometimes they light it up, sometimes they don't. More a gunner than point, but there are plenty of those guys who play in the league. Might have annoyed fans who wanted more from Payne than he's ever been in his career. Wasn't washed.

Clarkson. TBD, but probably about like Payne. With some more offense but less defense. Again, that's what the vet minimum gets you.

Solid post and I agree except for the part about Payne. I think that even though they are different types of players, Clarkson will be a sizable upgrade overall.

[Juco24]

I stopped reading after freakin Elfrid-19

[Moose]

I think the circumstances and perceptions and expectations around each of those guards was somewhat different.

Elf was still young. I think the Knicks were being mindful of the long term cap, but wanted the point of attack defense and ability to get to the rim. Valued it over ability to shoot, unfortunately. I think this is a case where Thibs "got his guy"

Kemba was someone WWW pushed for and a real fail. The hope was he had something left in the tank, but he was done. Also bad match for the coach. The only truly washed player on the list.

Fournier was another pro player scouting fail/Thibs mismatch, but they saw a player who scored about 17 ppg, hit 3's a good % at good volume and could provide some tertiary/secondary playmaking and figured it would work. Not the worst idea until the player become entrenched in the Thibs doghouse.
Not washed, just not that good.

Payne was fine. His defense wasn't that bad. He was signed for the vet minimum and provided what guys like that provide. Sometimes they light it up, sometimes they don't. More a gunner than point, but there are plenty of those guys who play in the league. Might have annoyed fans who wanted more from Payne than he's ever been in his career. Wasn't washed.

Clarkson. TBD, but probably about like Payne. With some more offense but less defense. Again, that's what the vet minimum gets you.

Solid post and I agree except for the part about Payne. I think that even though they are different types of players, Clarkson will be a sizable upgrade overall.

I'm not sure he can really run the point?

I imagine they will mix him in with a lot of dual ballhandlers like Bridges, McBride, and Kolek (I expect him to maybe get 8-12 minutes per game, or at least the chance to claim a role)

[thebuzzardman]

I think the circumstances and perceptions and expectations around each of those guards was somewhat different.

Elf was still young. I think the Knicks were being mindful of the long term cap, but wanted the point of attack defense and ability to get to the rim. Valued it over ability to shoot, unfortunately. I think this is a case where Thibs "got his guy"

Kemba was someone WWW pushed for and a real fail. The hope was he had something left in the tank, but he was done. Also bad match for the coach. The only truly washed player on the list.

Fournier was another pro player scouting fail/Thibs mismatch, but they saw a player who scored about 17 ppg, hit 3's a good % at good volume and could provide some tertiary/secondary playmaking and figured it would work. Not the worst idea until the player become entrenched in the Thibs doghouse.
Not washed, just not that good.

Payne was fine. His defense wasn't that bad. He was signed for the vet minimum and provided what guys like that provide. Sometimes they light it up, sometimes they don't. More a gunner than point, but there are plenty of those guys who play in the league. Might have annoyed fans who wanted more from Payne than he's ever been in his career. Wasn't washed.

Clarkson. TBD, but probably about like Payne. With some more offense but less defense. Again, that's what the vet minimum gets you.

This is not meant as a shot, but I prefer this type of commentary than your troll posts. It's not a bad bit, but this is more appreciated.

I'm only constitutionally capable of posting like this 10% of the time.

[thebuzzardman]

I think the circumstances and perceptions and expectations around each of those guards was somewhat different.

Elf was still young. I think the Knicks were being mindful of the long term cap, but wanted the point of attack defense and ability to get to the rim. Valued it over ability to shoot, unfortunately. I think this is a case where Thibs "got his guy"

Kemba was someone WWW pushed for and a real fail. The hope was he had something left in the tank, but he was done. Also bad match for the coach. The only truly washed player on the list.

Fournier was another pro player scouting fail/Thibs mismatch, but they saw a player who scored about 17 ppg, hit 3's a good % at good volume and could provide some tertiary/secondary playmaking and figured it would work. Not the worst idea until the player become entrenched in the Thibs doghouse.
Not washed, just not that good.

Payne was fine. His defense wasn't that bad. He was signed for the vet minimum and provided what guys like that provide. Sometimes they light it up, sometimes they don't. More a gunner than point, but there are plenty of those guys who play in the league. Might have annoyed fans who wanted more from Payne than he's ever been in his career. Wasn't washed.

Clarkson. TBD, but probably about like Payne. With some more offense but less defense. Again, that's what the vet minimum gets you.

Solid post and I agree except for the part about Payne. I think that even though they are different types of players, Clarkson will be a sizable upgrade overall.

I'm not sure he can really run the point?

I imagine they will mix him in with a lot of dual ballhandlers like Bridges, McBride, and Kolek (I expect him to maybe get 8-12 minutes per game, or at least the chance to claim a role)

I'm not sure. He's in that mode of Jamal Crawford etc, so probably score first/secondary playmaker. Probably enough of a point to function out there with Yabusule and others, so agreed.

[RHODEY]

Solid post and I agree except for the part about Payne. I think that even though they are different types of players, Clarkson will be a sizable upgrade overall.

I'm not sure he can really run the point?

I imagine they will mix him in with a lot of dual ballhandlers like Bridges, McBride, and Kolek (I expect him to maybe get 8-12 minutes per game, or at least the chance to claim a role)

I'm not sure. He's in that mode of Jamal Crawford etc, so probably score first/secondary playmaker. Probably enough of a point to function out there with Yabusule and others, so agreed.

I think we are looking for one other vet minimum piece (Brogdon?) to run the point. But honestly cam wasnt great in that area and Clarkson still average 5 assists a game...