2022-2023 Regular Season Game 7: Orlando Magic (1-5) at Dallas Mavericks (2-3) - 7:30pm

[Skybox]

I wish we had Suggs for this game, he would give Luka some tough love on defence, Suggs would faul out for sure, but Jalen can't be pushed around like this
And Paolo should take notice how Doncic just goes to post up any smaller player, he should do that as well, he has all the tools to take advantage of his size and handles

If one good thing comes from this loss, it's my hope that Paolo just saw what a one-man wrecking crew can do every single night...hopefully, Paolo aspires to that...Bullying EVERY mismatch, creating open 3's, never never deferring to an opponent or not believing he's the best player on the court at all times and that his team needs him NOW.

[Skybox]

I'm actually quite surprised it keeps breaking

Sent from my [Galaxy Note 23 ultra super duper max] using RealGM mobile app

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me 27 times…..

I have been the most negative about this team since Dwight left but finally I can see there is a light here with Paolo and Franz.
So I am enjoying this stealth tanking because we are developing Paolo and Franz (and hopefully Suggs, Kelle, Bol, Cole, WCJ will be part of that core but great unknown) and at the same time having a potential realistic chance at Wemby or Scoot.

I disagree that rolling them out there with mismatched un-complementary (let's be honest - bad) talent is "developing them". They're learning to just go get a bucket, not bring out the best in their team. I NEVER want Paolo and Franz to take a back seat to their lesser teammates, but it's just a bigger, somewhat inefficient Cole. I'm not blind, Paolo is a potential All-Star this year but his superstar upside comes largely from his court vision and passing. That's what separates him from other big guys that can score. Randle was an All-Star and put up crazy numbers for a year before he faded back into the pack. Stars like Paolo can "go get a bucket" when needed, but if we don't develop some TEAM ball movement, he'll be another frustrated inefficient empty stats guy.

[YosemiteSam]

"Team is few years away from actually competing" is something that has been repeated here since 2013. And here we are, 2 months away from 2023.

It's cycle that reapeats itself every year for last 11 years for Orlando and for just about any team that is incapable of breaking cycle in any other way but thinks they can suck their way into being relevant again.

Injuries are cute excuse to protect front office from facts. They drafted, traded or signed majority of those players with previous injuries or even while they were injuried. Cole and Okeke both had injury at college, especially Okeke. Fultz and Isaac never played even before exstensions. Harris has been hurt since... 2017?
Suggs playstye yells " high risk of injury".
Bol, Wendell ,even Bamba all had health issues before exstensions, and not small ones.
So if you build roster where 70% of players are injury prone, how can you be surprised they are often injured?

It's foolish to expect 2023-24 to be much different than last 3 years

Several posters have said anyone complaining about the losses must have expected the Magic to be a top seed or win 50 games.

But, what I had predicted was for us to be as bad as we are, and I had bet the under on wins for the season. What I’m trying to express is that here we go again at 1-6 and this is actually consistent with how we’ve played before and we are losing games often by 8 to 10 points which is not really keeping them close.

I do not see much potential for us to be much better, even when the so-called injured saviors return. I think the main difference here is having a couple infrequently, promising players, and another season of 20 to 25 wins with a hope that the next savior is in the draft even if we get one of the top 2 picks we want, which is statistically improbable, and is no way to root for a team, especially within the first five or six games to open season. I’m complaining not because I’m surprised, but because I am not surprised.

And for those citing the difficult opening schedule, other teams that are rebuilding and dealing with injuries have at least managed to scrape out a couple more wins on any given night and have lesser differences in their scores (see Hornets, Jazz or Thunder). Another thing that I just can’t connect with what I see in these game threads is people saying we’re keeping the games close. Look at the scoreboard, a loss by nine points is not close in the NBA

[Bergmaniac]

Every time someone complains about this season so far it just confuses me. Most had the magic only winning 27 games (Vegas, ESPN) for a number reasons namely because they are young and rebuilding and half the team is injured. Now that it's actually happening people are upset like it wasn't predictable. I just don't get it. This team is a few years away from actually competing, give some time, sheeh.

People made these predictions before knowing about the injuries.

And I'm not buying the made of glass crap, every team deals with injuries but we have been insanely unlucky when it comes to it, now apparently we have some doctors on this board that saw the injuries to Fultz, Suggs, Cole and Wagner coming from miles away

Isaac and Fultz were drafted five years ago but have only played 136 and 131 NBA games respectively. Suggs plays recklessly and was injured half the time last season. All of them being out is hardly something that couldn't be predicted.

Anyway, not being blown out is nice, but close losses against good teams doesn't mean that much in the regular season, especially early on. Close losses are still losses and a lot of our ability to hang around this season has been because the other teams play with subpar effort early on. When they start playing hard on D, we usually struggle mightily. So far almost every game where we have been the underdogs has had a pattern of early lead for us followed by struggles in the 4th and a reasonably comfortable win for the favourite by 8-10 points. Being able to close out games is the hardest thing in this league and we are still far away.

This particular game was largely lost because we couldn't force turnovers. 4 turnovers for Dallas is insanely low for an NBA game. Luca had 0 despite holding the ball most of the game.

Banchero shot too many jumpers, which are still not clicking for him. We really need Franz to start hitting 3s, his drives are nice, but this team badly needs long range shooting.

Kevon Harris is solid on D and plays hard, but his offense is pretty brutal.

[jonbob17]

And being 1-6 shows the tide is not changing.

Yes, it is changing. Many of us can feel it.

Just wait till The backcourt gets healthy.

Saying wait to this team gets healthy ignores years of history. 1-6 is 1-6. I personally get no warm fuzzies from how we are losing. No moral victories

Imagine how hard a time the 76ers would have if they were missing: James Harden, Tyrese Maxey, and Deanthony Melton
Or Memphis: Morant, Bane, Tyus Jones

ANY team missing their top 4 guards are not winning. Because no team can plan on having their top 4 guards out. You can't build that kind of depth on a 15 player roster.

[SOUL]

What I’m trying to express is that here we go again at 1-6 and this is actually consistent with how we’ve played before and we are losing games often by 8 to 10 points which is not really keeping them close.

But it would be factually incorrect if you're trying to correlate it to the past two years though unless it is solely by wins/losses and no other context. It's technically only been one and a half seasons since we've started our second rebuild and people are already losing their minds because they can't handle a team building for the future and not doubling down on a Vucevic-Fournier-Gordon future part deux. As much as some posters would like you to believe, it hasn't been ongoing for 10 years. We've been unable to field a team people can believe in for 10 years, but there wasn't a rebuild for all of those. Big difference.

We made the playoffs for two straight seasons with a flawed, low ceiling roster that many are clamoring for again because of.. reasons?

In 2021 we started 6-2.
In 2022 we started out equally as badly but got blown out in three of them.

The only game that felt out of reach so far this season was the Knicks game, but even then, they cut it to a 6 point game with 4 minutes left. Detroit down to the wire, Cavs they were down 5 with 4 minutes left, Hawks game same thing (5 with 4 minutes left), Celtics game tied at 4 minutes. Literally a two possession game in all of these losses sub 5 minutes, all without 5-6 rotational players against legit playoff teams and contenders.

If people are ONLY box score watching, and correct me if I'm wrong, you seem like you have been, saying a game being lost by 8 or 10 points means the games aren't close is just factually incorrect. Teams have pulled away during the last 2 minutes of the game, which is where we've faltered the most,

I do not see much potential for us to be much better, even when the so-called injured saviors return. I think the main difference here is having a couple infrequently, promising players, and another season of 20 to 25 wins with a hope that the next savior is in the draft even if we get one of the top 2 picks we want, which is statistically improbable, and is no way to root for a team, especially within the first five or six games to open season. I’m complaining not because I’m surprised, but because I am not surprised.

Progress is not solely made through the draft. We currently own some very nice draft capital from our own pick and Chicago's pick, as well as some young guys who people may try to poach as reclamation projects. All of these things should be factored in instead of just assuming it's Wembanyama/Scoot or bust.

I feel like even if you assumed every player who is out for us now (Suggs, Fultz, Cole, Gary, Isaac, Moe) are low impact bench players/marginal starters at best (which, let's be honest, most probably are, but some can exceed that) .. then they'd still be replacing guys who wouldn't sniff the floor on most teams Okeke (current form), Bamba (spot minutes), Hampton, Houstan, K. Harris and Schofield, etc.

And for those citing the difficult opening schedule, other teams that are rebuilding and dealing with injuries have at least managed to scrape out a couple more wins on any given night and have lesser differences in their scores (see Hornets, Jazz or Thunder).

The Jazz haven't had any big injuries to rotation guys and have 26 years of NBA service in their backcourt alone. Their youngest starter has 5 years of NBA service.

The Hornets are in a similar situation where their youngest current starter has 4 years of NBA service and the rest are veterans.

The Thunder are actually surprising, but beat up on a Clippers team insanely injured in both home games. They've also tanked with no remorse the last 3 years so it's a bad example of a team that we should be emulating in your argument.

Another thing that I just can’t connect with what I see in these game threads is people saying we’re keeping the games close. Look at the scoreboard, a loss by nine points is not close in the NBA

Are you watching the games or not? If you consider games close or not strictly by what the end score is, then we can say no. If you watch the games and see them in a position where they can tie or lead with two possessions under 5 mins, then yes, they are competitive and close despite being undermanned and against way better teams. It's just amazing that nobody cares who or where we're playing and treat every opponent as a faceless, unknown team that we should be beating up on no matter the circumstances.

[j_n]

Isaac and Fultz were drafted five years ago but have only played 136 and 131 NBA games respectively. Suggs plays recklessly and was injured half the time last season. All of them being out is hardly something that couldn't be predicted.

Fultz was healthy last year and all summer, so was Harris, so were Cole, Suggs and Wagner.

If you could predict all of them being out then you should have no problem predicting their availability a month from now, so go ahead and tell us whose available in a month, everyone is a genius in retrospect.

[jezzerinho]

Well, my take is somewhere between the perpetual cycle of doom merchants and the hope is just around the corner peddlers.

We have drafted badly throughout the last decade. That is an objective fact. We have several players on our roster chosen by this FO via draft or trade who haven't lived up to expectation.

The FO has also done a terrible job in constructing teams with balance and that continues.

It's also a fact that young teams struggle to be competitive in the pros.

So when you have a history of losing, a history of poor roster building and talent ID, poor roster balance and a very young team.... Why would you expect anything more than losses and a bleak future?

Well the answer is everywhere in the NBA.

You ID whether you have 2 or 3 top young players, at least one with star potential,and then you surround them with veteran talent who balance out the team and bench.

If we want to stop losing, that's what we have to do. Fultz, Isaac, Harris, Ross... these guys are bench options at best.

More top rookies with our draft capital? That's just going to draw the process out.

Wagner and Banchero are 40% of a starting team. Them plus WCJ make 60%.

You just need two or three well-fitting vets who cover the skills gaps and you are instantly relevant.

Meanwhile, our roster is pushing hard. There are some kids with upside. But hoping they'll be our salvation is just a fantasy. Some might get to contribute off the bench.

But trying to do it all with kids and more kids, impossible.

The chips need to get pushed in asap. Meanwhile, as long as they keep playing hard and staying pretty competitive, the young guns are learning and not withering on the vine.

But if the FO fails to get veteran help, or the correct balanced help, they have been a total failure.

[YosemiteSam]

What I’m trying to express is that here we go again at 1-6 and this is actually consistent with how we’ve played before and we are losing games often by 8 to 10 points which is not really keeping them close.

But it would be factually incorrect if you're trying to correlate it to the past two years though unless it is solely by wins/losses and no other context. It's technically only been one and a half seasons since we've started our second rebuild and people are already losing their minds because they can't handle a team building for the future and not doubling down on a Vucevic-Fournier-Gordon future part deux. As much as some posters would like you to believe, it hasn't been ongoing for 10 years. We've been unable to field a team people can believe in for 10 years, but there wasn't a rebuild for all of those. Big difference.

We made the playoffs for two straight seasons with a flawed, low ceiling roster that many are clamoring for again because of.. reasons?

In 2021 we started 6-2.
In 2022 we started out equally as badly but got blown out in three of them.

The only game that felt out of reach so far this season was the Knicks game, but even then, they cut it to a 6 point game with 4 minutes left. Detroit down to the wire, Cavs they were down 5 with 4 minutes left, Hawks game same thing (5 with 4 minutes left), Celtics game tied at 4 minutes. Literally a two possession game in all of these losses sub 5 minutes, all without 5-6 rotational players against legit playoff teams and contenders.

If people are ONLY box score watching, and correct me if I'm wrong, you seem like you have been, saying a game being lost by 8 or 10 points means the games aren't close is just factually incorrect. Teams have pulled away during the last 2 minutes of the game, which is where we've faltered the most,

I do not see much potential for us to be much better, even when the so-called injured saviors return. I think the main difference here is having a couple infrequently, promising players, and another season of 20 to 25 wins with a hope that the next savior is in the draft even if we get one of the top 2 picks we want, which is statistically improbable, and is no way to root for a team, especially within the first five or six games to open season. I’m complaining not because I’m surprised, but because I am not surprised.

Progress is not solely made through the draft. We currently own some very nice draft capital from our own pick and Chicago's pick, as well as some young guys who people may try to poach as reclamation projects. All of these things should be factored in instead of just assuming it's Wembanyama/Scoot or bust.

I feel like even if you assumed every player who is out for us now (Suggs, Fultz, Cole, Gary, Isaac, Moe) are low impact bench players/marginal starters at best (which, let's be honest, most probably are, but some can exceed that) .. then they'd still be replacing guys who wouldn't sniff the floor on most teams Okeke (current form), Bamba (spot minutes), Hampton, Houstan, K. Harris and Schofield, etc.

And for those citing the difficult opening schedule, other teams that are rebuilding and dealing with injuries have at least managed to scrape out a couple more wins on any given night and have lesser differences in their scores (see Hornets, Jazz or Thunder).

The Jazz haven't had any big injuries to rotation guys and have 26 years of NBA service in their backcourt alone. Their youngest starter has 5 years of NBA service.

The Hornets are in a similar situation where their youngest current starter has 4 years of NBA service and the rest are veterans.

The Thunder are actually surprising, but beat up on a Clippers team insanely injured in both home games. They've also tanked with no remorse the last 3 years so it's a bad example of a team that we should be emulating in your argument.

Another thing that I just can’t connect with what I see in these game threads is people saying we’re keeping the games close. Look at the scoreboard, a loss by nine points is not close in the NBA

Are you watching the games or not? If you consider games close or not strictly by what the end score is, then we can say no. If you watch the games and see them in a position where they can tie or lead with two possessions under 5 mins, then yes, they are competitive and close despite being undermanned and against way better teams. It's just amazing that nobody cares who or where we're playing and treat every opponent as a faceless, unknown team that we should be beating up on no matter the circumstances.

First of all, thank you for the reasoned, thoughtful and measured response. I might not agree with some of your perspectives but I see them as valid sources of disagreement and worth a discussion.

To your main point asking if I watch games, the answer is yes but limited. I have seen part of every game, but due to time constraints I have only watched the end. Now, based on your response it seems I have seen the bad parts, but also those moments are when you truly get a feel for how far away you actually are IMO. You may disagree with that POV, but if you understand that is my criteria then you see why I am so frustrated and pessimistic. We have been severely outclassed at end of games and I don’t think a healthy Fultz, Isaac or Suggs will fix that.

Honestly my frustration is boiling over specifically watching Maxey and Bane deliver exactly what we are missing and realize that out FO has missed out on this type of talent multiple times over the years. They keep adding talents like Fultz and Bamba and Anthony and Okeke and never once hit a long shot pick to fill out the roster like the good teams do. Franz doesn’t count he was a mid lottery pick. It seems like they may have finally done it with Bol but of course it is in a redundant position. They just suck at evaluating perimeter players and if they can’t solve that we are doomed

Also, the “this summer is when we push in all out chips” crowd: I’ll believe it when I see it, and also I have no confidence they know what a good match and value even looks like. Plus that doesn’t make the prospect of watching the next 75 games very appealing.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

Progress is not playing from behind like the last two seasons. I’ll take it.

[YosemiteSam]

Progress is not playing from behind like the last two seasons. I’ll take it.

I'm really kinda shocked and amazed at the general patience displayed by this board. Like is this still the Internet? It seems that most of the people have a 2-3 year horizon going forward on this team - wonder if the general fan base is as understanding? My guess is no, but they have already checked out on this team and will only come back once we are relevant.

I'm the idiot who spends $5K a year for my family to go in person to watch Cole Anthony brick open 3 pointers for 10 or so games

[MagicManMike]

I watch a lot of the comments on game threads and I guess I am more of a NBA historian when it comes to “player development”. The issue the Magic have had for almost it’s entire existence is the lack of player development. We drafted solid players from the beginning. When we made our expansion picks, from that the most solid to come from it was problematic Jeff Turner who would have probably had a very limited NBA career if not for the shot with Orlando. He was maybe our first player we developed.

But the franchise was used to players coming straight in like Nick, Dennis, Shaq and then Penny to gradually change the team. Then the same thing happened with Dwight & Jameer, the other way the Magic did it was to try to tank and then sign free agents. That year was heart and hustle. THE ONLY year I can remember where we inadvertently developed players other teams cast off. Ben Wallace and Chuckie being the most notable.

Look the point is the Magic have never truly committed to a full player development rebuild. We know that we have talent in Franz and PB. We have to find out what we have in Bol, Anthony, Hampton, Suggs, Bamba etc, which means putting each on in situations that they may not be comfortable or ready for. The FO committed to signing/drafting length. We shall see how that pans out.

On another note. If/When Fultz is back running the team he is still going to need time to develop. I think his best example career wise is Chauncey Billups. He couldn’t shoot early on his career or run the point. It took him 6 years in the league to finally show his promise and 9 years in the league to become an all star. The toughest positions traditionally in the NBA are point guard and center. I can see a world where no matter what Fultz does between now and the end of his contract he gets a new contract just because how scarce a point guard is like him and there are literally only 4 top shelf point guards in the entire NBA.

Enjoy the player development no matter how the wins and losses turn out.

[MagicManMike]

On the player development side the Magic has a lengthy list of players we traded that turned our way better than with the Magic because we were not committed to their FULL development. Hopefully that is changing.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

Progress is not playing from behind like the last two seasons. I’ll take it.

I'm really kinda shocked and amazed at the general patience displayed by this board. Like is this still the Internet? It seems that most of the people have a 2-3 year horizon going forward on this team - wonder if the general fan base is as understanding? My guess is no, but they have already checked out on this team and will only come back once we are relevant.

I'm the idiot who spends $5K a year for my family to go in person to watch Cole Anthony brick open 3 pointers for 10 or so games

I got no choice but to be patient. I don’t run this team but I do like the Magic team.

[zaymon]

I watch a lot of the comments on game threads and I guess I am more of a NBA historian when it comes to “player development”. The issue the Magic have had for almost it’s entire existence is the lack of player development. We drafted solid players from the beginning. When we made our expansion picks, from that the most solid to come from it was problematic Jeff Turner who would have probably had a very limited NBA career if not for the shot with Orlando. He was maybe our first player we developed.

But the franchise was used to players coming straight in like Nick, Dennis, Shaq and then Penny to gradually change the team. Then the same thing happened with Dwight & Jameer, the other way the Magic did it was to try to tank and then sign free agents. That year was heart and hustle. THE ONLY year I can remember where we inadvertently developed players other teams cast off. Ben Wallace and Chuckie being the most notable.

Look the point is the Magic have never truly committed to a full player development rebuild. We know that we have talent in Franz and PB. We have to find out what we have in Bol, Anthony, Hampton, Suggs, Bamba etc, which means putting each on in situations that they may not be comfortable or ready for. The FO committed to signing/drafting length. We shall see how that pans out.

On another note. If/When Fultz is back running the team he is still going to need time to develop. I think his best example career wise is Chauncey Billups. He couldn’t shoot early on his career or run the point. It took him 6 years in the league to finally show his promise and 9 years in the league to become an all star. The toughest positions traditionally in the NBA are point guard and center. I can see a world where no matter what Fultz does between now and the end of his contract he gets a new contract just because how scarce a point guard is like him and there are literally only 4 top shelf point guards in the entire NBA.

Enjoy the player development no matter how the wins and losses turn out.

I think we developed many good players, but you also need talent. Shaq and Penny were our rookies and we led them to victories. Same with Dwight and Jameer. They were talented when they came to NBA, but especially Howard was so raw and young.
We developed Vucevic and Gordon, you could say we had them at their peak.
Now we benefited from developing Vucevic and Gordon and we rebuild around tanking and high lottery picks. What we need is keeping our talent on board and happy.

[thelead]

On the player development side the Magic has a lengthy list of players we traded that turned our way better than with the Magic because we were not committed to their FULL development. Hopefully that is changing.

Which players are you talking about?

[cedric76]

On the player development side the Magic has a lengthy list of players we traded that turned our way better than with the Magic because we were not committed to their FULL development. Hopefully that is changing.

Which players are you talking about?

Exactly, it s usually the other way around, players leaving Orlando don't pan out

[ORLMagicGirl15]

On the player development side the Magic has a lengthy list of players we traded that turned our way better than with the Magic because we were not committed to their FULL development. Hopefully that is changing.

Which players are you talking about?

Exactly, it s usually the other way around, players leaving Orlando don't pan out

By panning our, do you mean they are superstars, all stars, or rotational players?

I would like to know how that works out for all the other teams. What is the turnover rate? 450 players in the NBA, yet there are 30 new spots every year because of the draft. Do other teams retain their players more than us? It would be good research to do.

[Rainwater]

Every time someone complains about this season so far it just confuses me. Most had the magic only winning 27 games (Vegas, ESPN) for a number reasons namely because they are young and rebuilding and half the team is injured. Now that it's actually happening people are upset like it wasn't predictable. I just don't get it. This team is a few years away from actually competing, give some time, sheeh.

People made these predictions before knowing about the injuries.

And I'm not buying the made of glass crap, every team deals with injuries but we have been insanely unlucky when it comes to it, now apparently we have some doctors on this board that saw the injuries to Fultz, Suggs, Cole and Wagner coming from miles away

I meant to say most predicted 27 wins because they knew the magic are young and rebuilding but add that they are injured makes matters worse. And the fact that most experts predicted 27 wins with a healthy roster shows how much faith people really in the magic.

[Black and Blue]

I'll join the group that is a bit more on the optimistic side of things than the doom and gloom, simply because the point of this season is to assess who is a keeper and who can be tossed into a dumpster. It's only the start of the season but I think the front office already have an increasingly clear idea so far of how this is panning out long term:

KEEPER:
Paolo
F. Wagner
Carter
Bol

DUMPSTER:
Bamba
Okeke
Hampton
K. Harris
Isaac (barring him actually returning)
Ross
Schofield

JURY IS OUT/DEPENDS ON REST OF SEASON:
Suggs
Cole Anthony
Gary Harris
Houstan
Fultz
M. Wagner

I think you'll start to see a lot of those "Jury is out" players getting more time than expected when they come back so the FO can properly assess their worth and (worst case) get their trade value up. I think Cole Anthony still has a lot of value on this team as a 6th man/bench scorer/positive teammate. Suggs will continue to get every opportunity to see if he can turn his poor playing around at some point this year. Fultz is still somehow only 24 and it solves a lot of problems if he develops into the PG they need and they don't have to spend draft capital/$ to get one.

My hope is that the dumpster players mentioned above are confined to only spot/situational duty once the injured players come back. The clock is really ticking on them to show SOMETHING to stick around. Especially Bamba, who doesn't even seem like a 3rd Center at this point.