ImageImageImageImage

Today's league.... too soft and boring

Moderators: ChosenSavior, UCF, Knightro, UCFJayBird, Def Swami, Howard Mass

pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 22,962
And1: 18,956
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#21 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 9, 2023 12:54 pm

Bensational wrote:I think todays league is much, MUCH more skilled than past eras. The ballhandling and shooting is better across all positions. The craft is better.

I couldn’t say one era is better than another though. They’re both enjoyable, but very different. Magic were more enjoyable in the 90s and late 00’s because we had two of the best big men in the era of big men. Most of the last decade sucked though, before Suggs, Franz and Paolo showed up.



I don't really agree with first paragraph. It's not that i disagree either, imo every basketball era has kind a similar amount of talented players ,but nba playstyle in particular plays role in selecting players.

There are on demand needs league has, and in time slot between Magic Johnson stepping down and 2015 most dominant basketball style in nba were:
1) monster size bigs ( Howard, Dwight, Hakeem, Yao, Robinson , Duncan etc)
2) uber athletic ballhoging wings


You can make objective argument that 1999-2013 nba played dreadful basketball with billion low efficiency long 2s and defense that looked much better because players were on regular bases taking- idiotic shots.
But player's selection was based on : who plays physical defense, who is bigger.
Almost every team had 1 or 2- 20 FGA player and they would just patch rest of roster with stiff woods to do the dirty work. For example, Lakers leading scorer off bench in 2002 playoffs averaged 5 ppg and only 1 starter aside from Kobe & Shaq averaged points in double digits. ( Fisher, 10,2 as lead PG, he also only averaged 2,7 apg as lead PG).
Or notion that Rasheed Wallace was viewed as "reliable offense" on championship roster with hideus 48% TS and their "best offensive player" Billups had 45% eFG in playoffs , for comparison sake, Booker on his crazy streak, this year ,sits at 68% eFG in playoffs.


In such environment playful, creative PGs weren't on high demand, and nobody really needed shooters.
In whole damn league, only 16 players , during 2004-05 averaged more than 5 three point attemps a game and actually shot ball over 35,01%. And like 6 of them were allstars, so rest of a league had no interest into high volumen, high accuracy shots, neither was ready to give up ball to prolific shooters to shoot.

That impacted player's selection a lot.

This is same era where USA basketball team was routed several times mostly by- very creative ballhandlers who could often shoot lights out ( Navarro, Ginobilii, Diamantidis, Papanikolau, Jasikevicius etc). But there was no place ( or at least no serious money to be offered) to majority of them in nba because they didn't fit profile of role player - stiff wood and/or big. And nobody was willing to give them "keys" of teams, as various Marbury's, Iversons & Steve Francis of the world were in charge of throwing bricks in air.
I mean... Iverson had season where he shot 38,7% FG, 28% for 3, 41% eFG and still averaged 23 shots a game. And made it to an allstar game. In middle of his prime. As some of most notorious examples of teams that were winning games despite their "best players" who were there to chuck shots & collect money.


Lot of late of 1990s and 2000s players who were fine, in today's era would have much better careers today ( Kukoc, Petrovic, Allen, Reggie Miller, LaFrentz, Nash, Price, Lewis..)


Today league changed. If you have basic basketball skills set, and you are very good at shooting & playmaking, you can make it to nba.
But now, if you are 7'2 monster who is back to basket player, you probably will have much, much harder time finding roster to play because those players are no longer needed. Traditional bigs died off. Now it's normal to have PF play C, SF to play PF; and we also often see two small guards , sometimes even 3.
Heat for example, last night had in one moment, if i'm not mistaking: 6'0 Lowry, 6'3 Vincent, 6'5 Strus, 6'7 Butler and 6'9 Adebayo on the floor. Average size of that team is what ? 6'5 ?

And there aren't any more bigs to be fed inside, and any more "athletic wings who take mid range jumpshots" to be fed with 25 shots.

By default smaller players are more foundamentally sounded than bigs. This era doesn't need big players. That's why, by default, players are "more skilled". Because teams activlly search for skilled players, who are easly founded in smaller players unlike in past where very talented players weren't playing because they didn't fit mold.

This however, doesn't stop scouts from proposing and selling "can't play basketball but for damn sure can win olympics in other sport" type of athletes to be drafted sky high. Kuminga and Sekou Doumbouya being most recent examples. Sekou being one of most epic examples , since , somehow, he wasn't even athletic in games, despite having 43 inch vertical (and some of worst advanced numbers nba has ever seen ).
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
User avatar
VFX
RealGM
Posts: 18,313
And1: 16,189
Joined: May 30, 2016

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#22 » by VFX » Tue May 9, 2023 2:08 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Trade didn't work for them, but nevermind, there is always good samaritan to help them out so they send Westbrook's salary for non other than another allstar level player ( + 2 solid role players). Team that gave them assets didn't even kept Westbrook...

Maybe they are just masterminds of business. Or maybe game is always rigged in their favour. Reagrdless, they won 9 championships in time period of 2000-2022.


Remind me again how the Lakers managed to trade Westbrook for Russell, Rui, Vanderbilt, Beasley, etc. ?

I didn’t care about the trade at the time, but how did they just offload him to a team that moved him again? Makes no sense looking back.

edit: found it

In the Westbrook trade, the Lakers got point guard D’Angelo Russell, guard Malik Beasley and forward Jarred Vanderbilt from the Timberwolves, who acquired guards Mike Conley and Nickeil Alexander-Walker and draft picks from the Jazz.

In addition to Westbrook, the Jazz got forward Juan Toscano-Anderson, centre Damian Jones and a 2027 Lakers first-round pick. If the Lakers’ pick to the Jazz falls into the top four, the pick will automatically change to a 2027 second-round pick.

——

So the Timberwolves are basically a farm system for Los Angeles. Why would they make that deal for the corpse of Conley and a lightly protected 2027 draft pick? Only thing they traded of value is the pick 5 years from now, but that goes to the Jazz for merely facilitating the deal. Pretty shady tbh. Nothing in that deal really helps either the Wolves or Jazz at all after buying out Westbrook.

Hachimura was also traded to LA for 3 second round draft picks and Kendrick Nunn (who?) for a guy that was a top 10 pick in 2019 buried in Washington’s rotation.
Rainwater
RealGM
Posts: 12,142
And1: 7,309
Joined: Apr 02, 2017

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#23 » by Rainwater » Tue May 9, 2023 3:05 pm

Typical old man yelling at the cloud. In 30 years young people today will be doing the same.
User avatar
fendilim
RealGM
Posts: 31,830
And1: 5,470
Joined: Jun 11, 2002
Location: 孫悟空, 时间太?!

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#24 » by fendilim » Tue May 9, 2023 3:32 pm

Petre1978 wrote:








90's and 2000's league was so amazing to watch.
So physical!!!

Today's league is for pussies!!!

Today’s league isn’t boring.

Have you talked to your grandparents? They’d say back in their days, it was fun etc etc. life were simple etc. try recalling a fond memory in your childhood, wouldnt you say your childhood was better than now as an adult.

Today’s league is part of the game evolving.

Back in the days, everyone wants to be like the league superstar. Usually, only the physically gifted players are blessed with those capabilities.

Now, advance stats and social media has changed the game. Advanced stats basically says just be able to shoot 3s and finish in the paint. Which doesnt require someone to be a physical specimen.

Player skills have also improved because they copy current nba players’ training etc., thru social media.
Image
User avatar
Last Guardian
RealGM
Posts: 27,043
And1: 4,284
Joined: Feb 22, 2004
Location: New Jersey
 

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#25 » by Last Guardian » Tue May 9, 2023 4:20 pm

The game is still physical. Wendell got his goggles slapped off him every game. It’s just post game is no longer a good focal point of an offense.
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 22,962
And1: 18,956
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#26 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 9, 2023 4:32 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Trade didn't work for them, but nevermind, there is always good samaritan to help them out so they send Westbrook's salary for non other than another allstar level player ( + 2 solid role players). Team that gave them assets didn't even kept Westbrook...

Maybe they are just masterminds of business. Or maybe game is always rigged in their favour. Reagrdless, they won 9 championships in time period of 2000-2022.


Remind me again how the Lakers managed to trade Westbrook for Russell, Rui, Vanderbilt, Beasley, etc. ?

I didn’t care about the trade at the time, but how did they just offload him to a team that moved him again? Makes no sense looking back.

edit: found it

In the Westbrook trade, the Lakers got point guard D’Angelo Russell, guard Malik Beasley and forward Jarred Vanderbilt from the Timberwolves, who acquired guards Mike Conley and Nickeil Alexander-Walker and draft picks from the Jazz.

In addition to Westbrook, the Jazz got forward Juan Toscano-Anderson, centre Damian Jones and a 2027 Lakers first-round pick. If the Lakers’ pick to the Jazz falls into the top four, the pick will automatically change to a 2027 second-round pick.

——

So the Timberwolves are basically a farm system for Los Angeles. Why would they make that deal for the corpse of Conley and a lightly protected 2027 draft pick? Only thing they traded of value is the pick 5 years from now, but that goes to the Jazz for merely facilitating the deal. Pretty shady tbh. Nothing in that deal really helps either the Wolves or Jazz at all after buying out Westbrook.

Hachimura was also traded to LA for 3 second round draft picks and Kendrick Nunn (who?) for a guy that was a top 10 pick in 2019 buried in Washington’s rotation.


Nothing that happend made any sense for anybody but to help Lakers become contender.

Don't remember that they menaged to sign Dennis Schroder (28 years old) on league's minimum :rofl:
Schroder who isn't great , but who is career 14 ppg, /53% TS player .

They started season with Westbrook, Anderson (awful contract) ,Thomas Bryant and Beverly.

They flipped them, giving up only one pick ( 2027, top 4 protected, and bunch of second round picks and scrubs ) for: D'angello Russell, Mo Bamba, Hachimura, Vanderbilt, Malik Beasley.

Who needs rebuilds when you can bribe process?
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 39,039
And1: 8,895
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#27 » by drsd » Tue May 9, 2023 5:15 pm

pepe1991 wrote:In Europe and i assume in most other countries you can bet on players scoring over/under some criteria.

Let's say your cousin's friend has friend who plays in nba, let's call that player Mark.
Mark averages 15 mpg on some piss poor Pistons.
Mark knows they play Suns and he knows that he will get 20 mpg because he saw his teammate Joe has flue and will probably sit more, or won't play more.
What stops Mark from telling his friend that he will play more.

Playing more = more shots = more points.

And than you and me, with right information , can invest $50K on 1,85 odd that Mark will score 8+ points. That simple data, would turn us profit of whooping $42000. It will cost Mark nothing. And it's NBA so every random scrub goes for 30 so nobody will notice anything dirty.

now next game Mark knows he won't play, betting houses will now uptick his over /under to 12. We know Mark won't play that much so we will invest $50K to under.
Now, over 2 games, we just washed near $100K. We now have 80 games left to keep doing so.

And there are just about 50000000 online casinsos & betting houses to make sure we don't look suspicius by doing so. England is kingdom of dumb bets. You can bet on yourself making into nba.
btw some guy won $75M on bets couple of months ago :lol: i think baseball



I read this and the first thing I thought of was the ReaGM ticker; "Jordan Poole: I Wish I Had Answers For You".

Well: maybe pepe has one, management only played him 10 minutes so that a bet could be won.
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 22,962
And1: 18,956
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#28 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 9, 2023 5:19 pm

drsd wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:In Europe and i assume in most other countries you can bet on players scoring over/under some criteria.

Let's say your cousin's friend has friend who plays in nba, let's call that player Mark.
Mark averages 15 mpg on some piss poor Pistons.
Mark knows they play Suns and he knows that he will get 20 mpg because he saw his teammate Joe has flue and will probably sit more, or won't play more.
What stops Mark from telling his friend that he will play more.

Playing more = more shots = more points.

And than you and me, with right information , can invest $50K on 1,85 odd that Mark will score 8+ points. That simple data, would turn us profit of whooping $42000. It will cost Mark nothing. And it's NBA so every random scrub goes for 30 so nobody will notice anything dirty.

now next game Mark knows he won't play, betting houses will now uptick his over /under to 12. We know Mark won't play that much so we will invest $50K to under.
Now, over 2 games, we just washed near $100K. We now have 80 games left to keep doing so.

And there are just about 50000000 online casinsos & betting houses to make sure we don't look suspicius by doing so. England is kingdom of dumb bets. You can bet on yourself making into nba.
btw some guy won $75M on bets couple of months ago :lol: i think baseball



I read this and the first thing I thought of was the ReaGM ticker; "Jordan Poole: I Wish I Had Answers For You".

Well: maybe pepe has one, management only played him 10 minutes so that a bet could be won.


This is how his over under points went in playoffs
over
under
over
over
under
under
over
under
under
under

Poole big game confirmed by bwin.com :rofl:
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
User avatar
Ralof
Pro Prospect
Posts: 909
And1: 519
Joined: Jul 02, 2021
   

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#29 » by Ralof » Tue May 9, 2023 5:37 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.


can't say better

my grandma grow up during ww2,Italy was a total battlefield,civil war with families and friend killing each other,they were starving eating cats and dogs.

and still when she was still alive and i was a kid, she was iron convinced that country was a better place than today.
User avatar
VFX
RealGM
Posts: 18,313
And1: 16,189
Joined: May 30, 2016

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#30 » by VFX » Tue May 9, 2023 5:43 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Trade didn't work for them, but nevermind, there is always good samaritan to help them out so they send Westbrook's salary for non other than another allstar level player ( + 2 solid role players). Team that gave them assets didn't even kept Westbrook...

Maybe they are just masterminds of business. Or maybe game is always rigged in their favour. Reagrdless, they won 9 championships in time period of 2000-2022.


Remind me again how the Lakers managed to trade Westbrook for Russell, Rui, Vanderbilt, Beasley, etc. ?

I didn’t care about the trade at the time, but how did they just offload him to a team that moved him again? Makes no sense looking back.

edit: found it

In the Westbrook trade, the Lakers got point guard D’Angelo Russell, guard Malik Beasley and forward Jarred Vanderbilt from the Timberwolves, who acquired guards Mike Conley and Nickeil Alexander-Walker and draft picks from the Jazz.

In addition to Westbrook, the Jazz got forward Juan Toscano-Anderson, centre Damian Jones and a 2027 Lakers first-round pick. If the Lakers’ pick to the Jazz falls into the top four, the pick will automatically change to a 2027 second-round pick.

——

So the Timberwolves are basically a farm system for Los Angeles. Why would they make that deal for the corpse of Conley and a lightly protected 2027 draft pick? Only thing they traded of value is the pick 5 years from now, but that goes to the Jazz for merely facilitating the deal. Pretty shady tbh. Nothing in that deal really helps either the Wolves or Jazz at all after buying out Westbrook.

Hachimura was also traded to LA for 3 second round draft picks and Kendrick Nunn (who?) for a guy that was a top 10 pick in 2019 buried in Washington’s rotation.


Nothing that happend made any sense for anybody but to help Lakers become contender.

Don't remember that they menaged to sign Dennis Schroder (28 years old) on league's minimum :rofl:
Schroder who isn't great , but who is career 14 ppg, /53% TS player .

They started season with Westbrook, Anderson (awful contract) ,Thomas Bryant and Beverly.

They flipped them, giving up only one pick ( 2027, top 4 protected, and bunch of second round picks and scrubs ) for: D'angello Russell, Mo Bamba, Hachimura, Vanderbilt, Malik Beasley.

Who needs rebuilds when you can bribe process?


Definitely something going on behind the scenes. Doesn’t really make sense. All of those outgoing assets exchanged are net negative other than the pick 5 years from now.
jezzerinho
Analyst
Posts: 3,048
And1: 2,158
Joined: Jul 08, 2019
     

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#31 » by jezzerinho » Tue May 9, 2023 7:16 pm

It's absolutely rotten. The existence of Klutch makes it even more so. That a current player is allowed to have his own active agency is a farce.
User avatar
JF5
RealGM
Posts: 12,192
And1: 4,159
Joined: Jul 23, 2010
Location: Disney World, Florida

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#32 » by JF5 » Tue May 9, 2023 10:22 pm

shadrock wrote:
JF5 wrote:This is probably the most parity I've seen in years. Legitimately most of the remaining teams could win the title. (Outside of the Knicks).


Its not a parity issue though. Its an issue of competitiveness and heart. The NBA has lost its soul. Defenders have no rights nowadays, stars want to take night off seemingly all the time. Theres no committment to their team or city. Ive said it for years but the nba could learn a lot from Australian rules football and the English Premier League.


This has always been a thing though. I remember back in the day in the early 00s people criticized guys like Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, and Tracy McGrady for being "lazy" to some capacity or "lacking the heart to win".

Also, these games post Jordan-Bulls era due to the lack of spacing, defensive rules, lack of ball movement and low scoring made the games unwatchable. You had playoff series (Like Detroit vs. Indiana or Brooklyn/New Jersey vs. Boston) where the game scores would be in the 70 or 80 point range. It was absolutely brutal to see unless you were fans of those teams.

During that time before the 04-05 season when they changed the rules, It was just a lot of teams who slowed the pace to a hault as their best players would just run isolation plays to death OR if you didn't have those caliber of players you'd use all 24 seconds of the shot clock to look for a good shot which would typically be a long 2 point shot that would clank on the side of the rim. Those sorts of teams who did that like the Pistons and Pacers just relied on their staunch defenses, and nobody in their right mind want to watch that ****. It's absolutely boring.

I agree with Players not having loyalty to their teams long term. But that's the byproduct of fans and legends being very critical of a player for "not being a winner" or "not being able to lead a team to a title". I would say the lack of loyalty or the threat of a Superstar leaving forces a front office/organization to make moves to put a winning team around said player. Rather than being content with what the revenue that Superstar brings in without really trying to push for a winning team.

Also, it makes the NBA more fun during off-seasons as there is more player movement then ever which is exciting.

All in all the league is probably the most entertaining and watchable its ever been. Teams are scoring at a higher pace. Nearly all players on the court can shoot/score as the time of the stiffs are gone. And it's more perimeter oriented as that is the most marketable/exciting aspect of the league since Magic/Bird/Jordan. Yes, it's at the expense of the defense but it forces defenses to draft more dynamic specimens on that side of the floor which makes the game more strategic.
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 22,962
And1: 18,956
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Today's league.... too soft and boring 

Post#33 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 10, 2023 6:00 am

Ralof wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.


can't say better

my grandma grow up during ww2,Italy was a total battlefield,civil war with families and friend killing each other,they were starving eating cats and dogs.

and still when she was still alive and i was a kid, she was iron convinced that country was a better place than today.


I don't think it's nostalgia. Most of people here are probably in 20s, 30s, 40s , it's not like forums are made out of bunch of WWII vets.

I just dislike fact that game panders to casuals, rules changed to game "cosmetically pleasing" to soccer moms & fatties who can't do 1 situp and go to a game to eat 5 hot dogs and watch Ja Morant dunk 15 times while being guarded by nobody whole game long so he or she can log on twitter & instagram & tik tok and post 50000 videos from a game.

It's simple math.
More points produces more entertaining game.
More points produces inflated stats by individuals.
More inflated stats make inflated superstar count. That means every team has "one superstar at least".
More "superstars" = more merch sold.

if you line up some i don't know, Tim Duncan vs Giannis, Giannis wins every single box score category. but in reality by the age of 30, Duncan had 4 rings, Giannis 1 (turning 30 next season). But despite being "best" player on the planet over past 5 years,he only played 1 finals and 1 ECF in whole that process, being eliminated in first or second round 3 out of last 4 years. But that won't stop any casual fan to shower you with numbers from box score to "prove" how superior Giannis is to Timmy.

When in reality Giannis game is perfeclly suited for current "nobody defends in regular season " era as he is 6'11 ballhandler who makes penta steps, carries the ball over like it's spring break vacation and basically can be called for multiple on ball violations every possession, but isn't because game isn't being called for sake of basketball quality, but for sake of entertaiment quality.

There is footage from this playoffs where Giannis traveled 4 times in single possession without refs calling it. Four times. In single possession.

But nobody wants to admit that Giannis isn't well suited for first option on offense in playoffs. Where Duncan was because he was fundamentally sounded. Because it would hurt narrative that he is best player in a game. In reality, he, as best player in a game, is desparate for better ballhandler to make him more of a Lebron's Davis than Lebron that he wants to be.

For crying out loud, guy has playoff series where he averages almost 5 TO a game because he is played as "ballhandler" and now has playoffs with 45% FTs. And all that on piss poor officiating that doens't call for his travels. If they do, he would average 10 TOs every playoffs.

This isn't "Giannis diss " ,it's my take on how league cares more about creating narratives and manufacturing "superstars" that they can market & sell to casual fans than it is about basketball quality. And they encurage starts to change teams because it helps sell more new merch. That's why every year they promote 5 versions of jerseys and that's why we had that Christmas shirts- jersey several years back, and that's why you have "throwback" jerseys evey year. They just look how rip off casual fans by moving merch. Basketball quality is complete aftertought.
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon

Return to Orlando Magic