Moore: Magic Need to Trade for Malcolm Brogdon

[Residual-Heat]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

[fendilim]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

What exactly is the expectation for the 5th pick tho?

Superstar? Allstar? Starter?

Was Suggs even projected as a superstar? I do recall him being a culture setter, but not projected as a superstar. Even his draft comparisons - Lowry, Billups, Holiday - aren’t superstar. Lol

[VFX]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

What exactly is the expectation for the 5th pick tho?

Superstar? Allstar? Starter?

Was Suggs even projected as a superstar? I do recall him being a culture setter, but not projected as a superstar. Even his draft comparisons - Lowry, Billups, Holiday - aren’t superstar. Lol

These were the projections I remember hearing coming out of college. He isnt that far off if you look at these guys comparatively in their second and third seasons.

[Residual-Heat]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

What exactly is the expectation for the 5th pick tho?

Superstar? Allstar? Starter?

Was Suggs even projected as a superstar? I do recall him being a culture setter, but not projected as a superstar. Even his draft comparisons - Lowry, Billups, Holiday - aren’t superstar. Lol

You have to ask Pepe.

To me, Suggs is off to a rocky start to his career, but he is still capable of becoming the player most people envisioned before the draft. It just might take a little more time than what I and most people believed. Im still high on Suggs.

[pepe1991]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

What exactly is the expectation for the 5th pick tho?

Superstar? Allstar? Starter?

Was Suggs even projected as a superstar? I do recall him being a culture setter, but not projected as a superstar. Even his draft comparisons - Lowry, Billups, Holiday - aren’t superstar. Lol

Billups , Lowry and Holiday are players who made allstar game multiple times.

Matter of fact, Holiday was allstar in year 4.

Billups & Lowry, as i mentioned on Fultz thread, were only players in nba history to spend that much time in nba, and turn into multi level allstars. 2 out of 4706 players.

Btw probability of drafting allstar with 5th pick in a draft, accordin to research from 2020, is 30%.
Before Suggs and Okoro , three players in a row selected with 5th pick are:
Garland (allstar)
Trae Young (allstar)
Fox (allstar)
Mario Hezonja (Magic pick)

Make conclusions on your own

Reason why Suggs can't become player people envisioned before draft is very simple one:
he isn't playmaker ( projected to be one ) and can't play playmaker ( projected as such). So from start, he can't be what people expected him to be, because he simply doesn't have skills. What's there to really add? He is now shooting guard, not because he is some elite *shooting* guard, but because he *can't play point guard* and, by default, being 6'4 there isn't anything else for him to play on basketball court but *shooting guard*.

[Residual-Heat]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

What exactly is the expectation for the 5th pick tho?

Superstar? Allstar? Starter?

Was Suggs even projected as a superstar? I do recall him being a culture setter, but not projected as a superstar. Even his draft comparisons - Lowry, Billups, Holiday - aren’t superstar. Lol

Billups , Lowry and Holiday are players who made allstar game multiple times.

Matter of fact, Holiday was allstar in year 4.

Billups & Lowry, as i mentioned on Fultz thread, were only players in nba history to spend that much time in nba, and turn into multi level allstars. 2 out of 4706 players.

Btw probability of drafting allstar with 5th pick in a draft, accordin to research from 2020, is 30%.
Before Suggs and Okoro , three players in a row selected with 5th pick are:
Garland (allstar)
Trae Young (allstar)
Fox (allstar)
Mario Hezonja (Magic pick)

Make conclusions on your own

Reason why Suggs can't become player people envisioned before draft is very simple one:
he isn't playmaker ( projected to be one ) and can't play playmaker ( projected as such). So from start, he can't be what people expected him to be, because he simply doesn't have skills. What's there to really add? He is now shooting guard, not because he is some elite *shooting* guard, but because he *can't play point guard* and, by default, being 6'4 there isn't anything else for him to play on basketball court but *shooting guard*.

Sometimes its pure luck. 2022 draft was deep but doesnt seem to have much star power.

Lets look at the recent history of 4th picks.
Pat williams, Deandre Hunter, JJJ, josh jackson, dragan bender, Porzingis, AAron gordon, Cody Zeller, Dion Waiters, Tristan Thompson, Wedley Johnson, Tyreke Evans.

Thats 2 out 13 players that were able to make an allstar team. By your logic having the 5th pick in the draft is better than having the 4th pick.

[The-Stallion70]

Still can't believe this guy won rookie of the year.

We can't be too patient with all of our young players. Paolo and Franz are good RIGHT NOW and getting Brogdon would help them develop RIGHT NOW.

Besides I think the Cole trade rumors are true, plus the fact that Cole really isn't that good and is still better than Suggs. Brogdon would easily help us.

Having a lot of players in the backcourt doesn't mean that we are set in the backcourt.

[fendilim]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

What exactly is the expectation for the 5th pick tho?

Superstar? Allstar? Starter?

Was Suggs even projected as a superstar? I do recall him being a culture setter, but not projected as a superstar. Even his draft comparisons - Lowry, Billups, Holiday - aren’t superstar. Lol

Billups , Lowry and Holiday are players who made allstar game multiple times.

Matter of fact, Holiday was allstar in year 4.

Billups & Lowry, as i mentioned on Fultz thread, were only players in nba history to spend that much time in nba, and turn into multi level allstars. 2 out of 4706 players.

Btw probability of drafting allstar with 5th pick in a draft, accordin to research from 2020, is 30%.
Before Suggs and Okoro , three players in a row selected with 5th pick are:
Garland (allstar)
Trae Young (allstar)
Fox (allstar)
Mario Hezonja (Magic pick)

Make conclusions on your own

Reason why Suggs can't become player people envisioned before draft is very simple one:
he isn't playmaker ( projected to be one ) and can't play playmaker ( projected as such). So from start, he can't be what people expected him to be, because he simply doesn't have skills. What's there to really add? He is now shooting guard, not because he is some elite *shooting* guard, but because he *can't play point guard* and, by default, being 6'4 there isn't anything else for him to play on basketball court but *shooting guard*.

How long have they been in the league?

What’s important is we’ve seen his game improving at this point. His defense has been pretty good, and his shots are starting to fall. His shot selection has been better compared to his rookie year.

Let’s cut the crap.

[Skin]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

Or are we still selling high before his value goes lower???

Right now "being the 5th pick of the draft" label and having fancy defensive analytics still means something. Maybe another team thinks they can get more out of him. Unless he had the mother offseason of all offseasons, and has fixed his game, we're facing another inefficient shooting, bad handle, poor pace playing, low IQ guard who is more of an athlete than a true hooper.

[Residual-Heat]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

Or are we still selling high before his value goes lower???

Right now "being the 5th pick of the draft" label and having fancy defensive analytics still means something. Maybe another team thinks they can get more out of him. Unless he had the mother offseason of all offseasons, and has fixed his game, we're facing another inefficient shooting, bad handle, poor pace playing, low IQ guard who is more of an athlete than a true hooper.

I'll take the chance to find out how good he can be instead of doing the same mistake we made with Oladipo. Trading him now for whatever we can get vs keeping him isnt going to make or break this franchise. We got our cornerstones. We've got plenty of assets. We can afford to take a chance on Suggs.

[basketballRob]

Suggs will be a very good player.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[Skin]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

Or are we still selling high before his value goes lower???

Right now "being the 5th pick of the draft" label and having fancy defensive analytics still means something. Maybe another team thinks they can get more out of him. Unless he had the mother offseason of all offseasons, and has fixed his game, we're facing another inefficient shooting, bad handle, poor pace playing, low IQ guard who is more of an athlete than a true hooper.

I'll take the chance to find out how good he can be instead of doing the same mistake we made with Oladipo. Trading him now for whatever we can get vs keeping him isnt going to make or break this franchise. We got our cornerstones. We've got plenty of assets. We can afford to take a chance on Suggs.

When you say it like that I lean on your side. I HATED trading Dipo. Yeah, we still have time.

[drsd]

When you say it like that I lean on your side. I HATED trading Dipo. Yeah, we still have time.

Well it was a choice between Oladipo and Fournier. This season's version of that will be about whether to retain Fultz or Anthony, as for the same reason, the team cannot financially afford to keep both.

I am still of mixed feelings if it would have been better to keep Fournier over Oladipo. In the end it was a moo point, as the tea was never going to be more than a six-seed if all stars aligned, with either player.

[pepe1991]

What exactly is the expectation for the 5th pick tho?

Superstar? Allstar? Starter?

Was Suggs even projected as a superstar? I do recall him being a culture setter, but not projected as a superstar. Even his draft comparisons - Lowry, Billups, Holiday - aren’t superstar. Lol

Billups , Lowry and Holiday are players who made allstar game multiple times.

Matter of fact, Holiday was allstar in year 4.

Billups & Lowry, as i mentioned on Fultz thread, were only players in nba history to spend that much time in nba, and turn into multi level allstars. 2 out of 4706 players.

Btw probability of drafting allstar with 5th pick in a draft, accordin to research from 2020, is 30%.
Before Suggs and Okoro , three players in a row selected with 5th pick are:
Garland (allstar)
Trae Young (allstar)
Fox (allstar)
Mario Hezonja (Magic pick)

Make conclusions on your own

Reason why Suggs can't become player people envisioned before draft is very simple one:
he isn't playmaker ( projected to be one ) and can't play playmaker ( projected as such). So from start, he can't be what people expected him to be, because he simply doesn't have skills. What's there to really add? He is now shooting guard, not because he is some elite *shooting* guard, but because he *can't play point guard* and, by default, being 6'4 there isn't anything else for him to play on basketball court but *shooting guard*.

Sometimes its pure luck. 2022 draft was deep but doesnt seem to have much star power.

Lets look at the recent history of 4th picks.
Pat williams, Deandre Hunter, JJJ, josh jackson, dragan bender, Porzingis, AAron gordon, Cody Zeller, Dion Waiters, Tristan Thompson, Wedley Johnson, Tyreke Evans.

Thats 2 out 13 players that were able to make an allstar team. By your logic having the 5th pick in the draft is better than having the 4th pick.

Lottery is luck based system , that's why i don't like it as rebuild strategy and dislike whole concept of nba draft.


2 out of 13 is bit out of context. Conley and Westbrook were left out of your frame because of it.
From 2000-2020, 6 out of 20 4th overall picks were allstars. That brings you back to 30% probability.

By your logic having the 5th pick in the draft is better than having the 4th pick

It's not "my logic" it's math and statistics. By math, 8th and 12th overall picks are least valuable lottery pick.



They simply never convert into allstars for whatever reason.


Some of this is pure popularity. Top 3 picks are most followed up by fans and most covered by media. Only reason why so many people still care about Fultz , even outside Magic has nothing to do with him as player, or anything he showed on court, but everything to do with fact he is former first overall pick.
Darko MIličić somehow lasted for near 10 years in nba, despite sucking every year, mostly because there was always at least 1 sucker team who thought they can get him going.


Being *allstar* in nba doesn't really mean being top 12 player in your conference. it's popularity based, fan voting.
objectively, Jimmy Butler is better than Adebayo, Derozan, Haliburton, Brown, Randle, MItchell and Kyrie. Yet all of them made it to allstar game but he didn't. Why? Well... concept of voting is very dumb, artificial and shallow.

[pepe1991]

When you say it like that I lean on your side. I HATED trading Dipo. Yeah, we still have time.

Well it was a choice between Oladipo and Fournier. This season's version of that will be about whether to retain Fultz or Anthony, as for the same reason, the team cannot financially afford to keep both.

I am still of mixed feelings if it would have been better to keep Fournier over Oladipo. In the end it was a moo point, as the tea was never going to be more than a six-seed if all stars aligned, with either player.

It was decision between:
throwing near max on unproven Oladipo or losing him for nothing.

Oladipo, by his own words, would never become star player if he didn't meet Westbrook.

There isn't much there to add, you have player saying that he would never be what he reached, if he was on Magic

Fear of new Dipo led towrad:
rotting out until value turned to zero of Bamba
blind resign of Isaac
blind resign of Fultz
re-sign of Gordon-until guy got sick of team ( and once he asked for trade in public ,his value nosedived)


If we kept Oladipo over Fournier, we would sign him for max or near max, he would probably never take another leap and he would probably also got hurt and we would end up paying 3 -injury prone years of +22M a year.

Like you said, probably nothing major would happen even if trade(s) never happen.

This ties in my point of serveral days ago, that trade WINS and LOSSES mean much less than media and some fans think.

Celtics won every trade of past decade to have 0 chips to have. Raptors lost three trades in season when they won championship

[fendilim]

Billups , Lowry and Holiday are players who made allstar game multiple times.

Matter of fact, Holiday was allstar in year 4.

Billups & Lowry, as i mentioned on Fultz thread, were only players in nba history to spend that much time in nba, and turn into multi level allstars. 2 out of 4706 players.

Btw probability of drafting allstar with 5th pick in a draft, accordin to research from 2020, is 30%.
Before Suggs and Okoro , three players in a row selected with 5th pick are:
Garland (allstar)
Trae Young (allstar)
Fox (allstar)
Mario Hezonja (Magic pick)

Make conclusions on your own

Reason why Suggs can't become player people envisioned before draft is very simple one:
he isn't playmaker ( projected to be one ) and can't play playmaker ( projected as such). So from start, he can't be what people expected him to be, because he simply doesn't have skills. What's there to really add? He is now shooting guard, not because he is some elite *shooting* guard, but because he *can't play point guard* and, by default, being 6'4 there isn't anything else for him to play on basketball court but *shooting guard*.

Sometimes its pure luck. 2022 draft was deep but doesnt seem to have much star power.

Lets look at the recent history of 4th picks.
Pat williams, Deandre Hunter, JJJ, josh jackson, dragan bender, Porzingis, AAron gordon, Cody Zeller, Dion Waiters, Tristan Thompson, Wedley Johnson, Tyreke Evans.

Thats 2 out 13 players that were able to make an allstar team. By your logic having the 5th pick in the draft is better than having the 4th pick.

Lottery is luck based system , that's why i don't like it as rebuild strategy and dislike whole concept of nba draft.


2 out of 13 is bit out of context. Conley and Westbrook were left out of your frame because of it.
From 2000-2020, 6 out of 20 4th overall picks were allstars. That brings you back to 30% probability.

By your logic having the 5th pick in the draft is better than having the 4th pick

It's not "my logic" it's math and statistics. By math, 8th and 12th overall picks are least valuable lottery pick.



They simply never convert into allstars for whatever reason.


Some of this is pure popularity. Top 3 picks are most followed up by fans and most covered by media. Only reason why so many people still care about Fultz , even outside Magic has nothing to do with him as player, or anything he showed on court, but everything to do with fact he is former first overall pick.
Darko MIličić somehow lasted for near 10 years in nba, despite sucking every year, mostly because there was always at least 1 sucker team who thought they can get him going.


Being *allstar* in nba doesn't really mean being top 12 player in your conference. it's popularity based, fan voting.
objectively, Jimmy Butler is better than Adebayo, Derozan, Haliburton, Brown, Randle, MItchell and Kyrie. Yet all of them made it to allstar game but he didn't. Why? Well... concept of voting is very dumb, artificial and shallow.

9th pick have the same odds as having the 4th pick. LOL

[Howard Mass]

I would pass on making a move for Brogdon.

The Magic should go with the talent they have this year.

Next summer is when to make moves.

[bigdogdylan5]

This idea that we should trade Suggs because you dont think he lived up to his draft position makes zero sense.

Yeah lets sell low on him and grab maybe a mid-1st round pick just to hope we can get a player like Suggs

What exactly is the expectation for the 5th pick tho?

Superstar? Allstar? Starter?

Was Suggs even projected as a superstar? I do recall him being a culture setter, but not projected as a superstar. Even his draft comparisons - Lowry, Billups, Holiday - aren’t superstar. Lol

Seeing those comp names there is another thing that stands out they all took a second in the league before they came winning players.

[Rainwater]

I would pass on making a move for Brogdon.

The Magic should go with the talent they have this year.

Next summer is when to make moves.

Yeah, been saying it for awhile, the magic are kinda in a wait and see mode right now. In a season or two is when you start seeing them making moves to contend.