What is the biggest reason the magic are 12-5?

[JF5]

I think we agree on more than disagree.

I agree just a only a few nuggets that are disputed

What I’m talking about with sitting on their hands are the years leading up to trading Vucevic. They resigned a bunch of guys and waited around. That includes the 2018 draft. 2017-2021 were basically waiting around with Hennigans roster, making low yield selections, and rolling out gleague lineups until AG and co bitched about everything and it became obvious they needed to actually do something.

There isn’t really a spin you can put on those years. Nothing really made sense until they drafted Cole Anthony and traded Vuc. In the end it worked out for them, but it took 4 extra years of appeasing ownership (im guessing) or whatever you think was going on.

There's a few things about this... I don't think there was much spin to this. There was that report and rumor back in the day in 2015 where Martins hired Scott Skiles and they saw it as a "win-now move" (which ended up crippling the team internally and the development of the players). Then when they hired Weltman/Hammond they in turn hired Steve Clifford who was also a "win-now" coach in 2018. There was clearly an obvious push from Alex Martins/Devos Family to make it to the playoffs with that hire and no overhaul of the roster.

Logically, if they were attempting to rebuild that hire would've not been made, and also Vucevic, Gordon, and Fournier would've all been traded a lot earlier. Reinforcing the roster rather than just starting from scratch immediately indicates that there is some sort of desire to win/make it to the playoffs sooner than later. Obviously, you're going to win a lot easier with veteran players so that's why those guys were kept.

Also, to add Gordon had been demanding/and or made inklings of a trade out of Orlando for years before 2021. I believe the first rumors came out of him being unhappy here were back in 2017/2018. But the team obviously wasn't going to let him go at the time. Once things came to a head in early 2021 that's when he publicly demanded to be traded as the remainder of the core (Vucevic, Fournier) also demanded trades out of Orlando privately.

The Michigan player thing… I’m fine with it working out if the players actually pan out. We will see with Houstan and Jett in a few years. I just have doubts in methodology of drafting guys because ownership likes a school. The odds you are landing every pick because you like a school instead of picking a guy based on any other litany of variables is just kind of dumb decision making..but hey.. if it works it works I guess.

I'm so confused about this... I think this point makes less sense than my belief that Ownership/Executives pushed for the Magic to make the playoffs after they they hired Weltman/Hammond. (Then again I could be biased here)

What incentive does the Devos family when it comes to drafting Michigan Player's on their team? How come this wasn't a thing before 2021 as the organization during the Weltman/Hammond era drafted Okeke/Issac/Cole/Bamba who are not from Michigan between 2017-2020?

Then the 2nd rounders during that time like Fraizer, Iwundu, and Horton-Tucker who also from different schools during that time frame as well.

The only thing that make sense and has a direct correlation that they're drafting Michigan Players is ever since Juwan Howard has started to coach the program back in 2019. They've been churning out quality NBA players. That's the only point that really makes sense why we're drafting players there.

At no point ever did I think Chet and Jabari were better offensively than Paolo. I was a firm believer Holmgren was an injury waiting to happen and Jabari was one dimensional Shard-lite. Paolo made sense but I didn’t put anything past their process.

I wasn't talking about your analysis or your belief that they were going to draft Paolo. I'm talking about Draft Experts, Websites, and Vegas all saying that Jabari was the number one pick for nearly 5-6 months before the draft.

This team IS talented. They appropriately tanked 2 seasons after ditching Clifford and pissing away 4 seasons of evaluation. It landed them this group which has been the best basketball Orlando has had in a LONG time. They get credit for the last 2 seasons and this one plus Cole Anthony and being patient with Isaac (we will see if he returns to real minutes). That’s the list.

Again, I’m not saying they are terrible at their jobs. People just need to pump the brakes and remember they wasted everyone’s lives for 4 seasons before saying they have vision and are spectacular at making decisions.

Obviously, they're not perfect. But compared to the last regime which did absolutely nothing and endured 5 losing seasons. This management group was able to get the squad into the playoff in back to back years (First time the organization did that in close to a decade). Then within 2 1/2 years of rebuilding you have one of the most promising young cores in the NBA who is off to a 13-5 start? That is an elite group that is able to do that (IMO).

[VFX]

I think we agree on more than disagree.

The Michigan player thing… I’m fine with it working out if the players actually pan out. We will see with Houstan and Jett in a few years. I just have doubts in methodology of drafting guys because ownership likes a school. The odds you are landing every pick because you like a school instead of picking a guy based on any other litany of variables is just kind of dumb decision making..but hey.. if it works it works I guess.

I'm so confused about this... I think this point makes less sense than my belief that Ownership/Executives pushed for the Magic to make the playoffs after they they hired Weltman/Hammond. (Then again I could be biased here)

What incentive does the Devos family when it comes to drafting Michigan Player's on their team? How come this wasn't a thing before 2021 as the organization during the Weltman/Hammond era drafted Okeke/Issac/Cole/Bamba who are not from Michigan between 2017-2020?

Then the 2nd rounders during that time like Fraizer, Iwundu, and Horton-Tucker who also from different schools during that time frame as well.

The only thing that make sense and has a direct correlation that they're drafting Michigan Players is ever since Juwan Howard has started to coach the program back in 2019. They've been churning out quality NBA players. That's the only point that really makes sense why we're drafting players there.

So that doesn’t really make sense. You fire a guy for not giving you pretty quick results (Henigan) and keep the core of his roster for another 4 years while hiring a win-now older coach to win with those players? Why? Those two decisions don’t make sense together.

I don’t know why Michigan is a thing now. They have a direct relationship to the university. It’s not a coincidence that Franz Wagner, Moritz Wagner, Jett Howard, Caleb Houstan, and DJ Wilson are all part of Orlando as an organization with Ignas Brazdeikis also on the roster less than 3 seasons ago . That’s a pattern. Not sure why that’s a pattern, but it’s obviously a determining factor for them for some reason.

Why didn’t they select Michigan players instead of Chuma, Bamba, and Isaac? That’s kind of a dumb question. They still have to build a basketball team. They aren’t going to pick some nobody Michigan player instead of talent if they can help it. Reaching for Jett by a few draft spots? Sure. Using the 32nd pick in the 2nd round (for once) for Caleb Houstan? Ok. Keeping fringe nba talent in the gleague? Sure I guess.

I’m saying I don’t think it should be a factor in selecting players. You either don’t see the pattern or have no issue with it. I don’t know where to go from there lol. School choice shouldn’t be a metric in evaluating players. Their game and a million other factors should. It’s just a sticking point to show how ownership is involved in these decisions that I don’t like . That goes back to the original argument of wasting 4 years because ownership wanted to win with mediocre talent and no ceiling because that’s what they thought was “best” despite what everyone knew for a decade.

[zaymon]

Keeping old core together and hiring a win-now coach makes perfect sense together.
You wait for bad contracts to expire (biyombo), you evaluate players and trade bad pieces (hezonja, payton), you raise the value of your most valueable assets (vucevic) and you click the rebuild buttom when the time comes. For me the timing was perfect and we can see the results right now and you cant argue with the results.

You can speculate with Michagan. Sometimes i wonder if they dont help Juwan with identyfying players to recrute. Its a win win. Howard gets information who can be worth a look and we get inside info on players.

[Driguez]

Defense + bench play

[fendilim]

Jalen Suggs.

I miss the doubters.

[VFX]

Keeping old core together and hiring a win-now coach makes perfect sense together.
You wait for bad contracts to expire (biyombo), you evaluate players and trade bad pieces (hezonja, payton), you raise the value of your most valueable assets (vucevic) and you click the rebuild buttom when the time comes. For me the timing was perfect and we can see the results right now and you cant argue with the results.

Kinda.

It depends on how far back you want to go lol. So you fired the GM that built the core of your “playoff team” that you continually resigned and then you hired guys to sit and wait for 4 seasons to properly rebuild for tank years when your players start realizing they can’t actually win anything. That’s what you are essentially saying.

Yeah, it worked out… it just took them 4+ years before actually tanking to THEN rebuild and multiple teams surpassed us into their rebuilds. We are seeing the results of 2021-2023 not 2017 onward. The only thing that changed was the draft talent pool. Again, it worked but mainly due to luck of who they drafted, and when, based on the 4 years of “evaluating” which was “waiting” by appeasing ownership.

If we ignore the first 4 years of them being employed, then I’d say they’ve done a fantastic job for the most part. Unfortunately that just isn’t the case.

[zaymon]

Keeping old core together and hiring a win-now coach makes perfect sense together.
You wait for bad contracts to expire (biyombo), you evaluate players and trade bad pieces (hezonja, payton), you raise the value of your most valueable assets (vucevic) and you click the rebuild buttom when the time comes. For me the timing was perfect and we can see the results right now and you cant argue with the results.

Kinda.

It depends on how far back you want to go lol. So you fired the GM that built the core of your “playoff team” that you continually resigned and then you hired guys to sit and wait for 4 seasons to properly rebuild for tank years when your players start realizing they can’t actually win anything. That’s what you are essentially saying.

Yeah, it worked out… it just took them 4+ years before actually tanking to THEN rebuild and multiple teams surpassed us into their rebuilds. We are seeing the results of 2021-2023 not 2017 onward. The only thing that changed was the draft talent pool. Again, it worked but mainly due to luck of who they drafted, and when, based on the 4 years of “evaluating” which was “waiting” by appeasing ownership.

If we ignore the first 4 years of them being employed, then I’d say they’ve done a fantastic job for the most part. Unfortunately that just isn’t the case.

We had a good chance for Luka, than we dodged the bullet on Zion/Ja and we skipped Edwards/Ball which was heralded as weak. We bottomed out for very strong 2021 and strong 2022.
I dont know if it was planned but if yes than it was a good plan based on draft research.

I call it delayed tanking. Something similar was done by Spurs and OKC which held veterans for longer than people thought they should. That would mean 3 great organizations had similar idea how to build a winner i dont think its a coincidence.
Ps. Remember i used term delayed tanking first :p

[JF5]

So that doesn’t really make sense. You fire a guy for not giving you pretty quick results (Henigan) and keep the core of his roster for another 4 years while hiring a win-now older coach to win with those players? Why? Those two decisions don’t make sense together.

It does make sense in a way... It's not like Vucevic/Gordon/Fournier were bad players. They were good to pretty good players who all had been in the league for at least 4-5 years in 2018. The issue was is could you actually BUILD around these guys to a contending team? Probably not... But if you wanted to make a push for a lower tier playoff spot with the right coaching? Yes, that could be done. You just add a veteran coach who can provide structure and an identity with supporting pieces that reinforce what the team wanted to do and it could be done. And that's what happend.

As I mentioned before its easier to have vets who are able to know what they're doing on the court, rather than drafting a bunch of young guys who make a ton of mistakes and could potentially never get used to the flow of the NBA (Which also cost the team a lot of games). If the prerequisite was to win as soon as possible then obviously that's part of the reason why those guys weren't moved right away. You're not going to move veteran players that can help you win and have built rapport with each other from the last 4 seasons for a bunch of draftees who need time to grow and understand the game.

I don’t know why Michigan is a thing now. They have a direct relationship to the university. It’s not a coincidence that Franz Wagner, Moritz Wagner, Jett Howard, Caleb Houstan, and DJ Wilson are all part of Orlando as an organization with Ignas Brazdeikis also on the roster less than 3 seasons ago . That’s a pattern. Not sure why that’s a pattern, but it’s obviously a determining factor for them for some reason.

Why didn’t they select Michigan players instead of Chuma, Bamba, and Isaac? That’s kind of a dumb question. They still have to build a basketball team. They aren’t going to pick some nobody Michigan player instead of talent if they can help it. Reaching for Jett by a few draft spots? Sure. Using the 32nd pick in the 2nd round (for once) for Caleb Houstan? Ok. Keeping fringe nba talent in the gleague? Sure I guess.

We were speaking on strictly DRAFTING players from Michigan. That was the basis of the point you were making. Not adding guys on 10-days, camp deals, and 2-Way contracts who ultimately get dumped.

They also have some kind of weird bias about drafting Michigan players obviously coming down from ownership's ties to the University. Not a fan of that kind of decision making. Fultz will be their next big test. How they navigate that situation will determine my feelings on them in either a positive of negative light.

and

The Michigan player thing… I’m fine with it working out if the players actually pan out. We will see with Houstan and Jett in a few years. I just have doubts in methodology of drafting guys because ownership likes a school. The odds you are landing every pick because you like a school instead of picking a guy based on any other litany of variables is just kind of dumb decision making..but hey.. if it works it works I guess.

Also, your two points in that same sequence contradict each other and go to my next point. They're building a team to try to win games and in the process make more money for the organization. The Devos Family has owned the team for 30+ years and there hasn't been any sort of influx of Wolverines on the team until the last 2+ seasons (which has come from the Juwan Howard era of players who clearly knows hows to develop NBA quality players). The additions that have stuck overall from the draft and free-agency has paid dividends (F. Wagner, M. Wagner, and Caleb Houstan).

I’m saying I don’t think it should be a factor in selecting players. You either don’t see the pattern or have no issue with it. I don’t know where to go from there lol. School choice shouldn’t be a metric in evaluating players. Their game and a million other factors should. It’s just a sticking point to show how ownership is involved in these decisions that I don’t like . That goes back to the original argument of wasting 4 years because ownership wanted to win with mediocre talent and no ceiling because that’s what they thought was “best” despite what everyone knew for a decade.

I don't see a problem with it because the guys from Michigan have been positive players thus far. Jett Howard (Who is a rookie) is the only one who hasn't done anything as of yet. F. Wagner is an All-Star quality player, M. Wagner is one of the best Scorers in the league coming off the bench, and Caleb Houstan is a pretty good plug-in guy who is likely to be in the league for 10+ years as a decent-to-good role player who knows his role. It shows within the last 4-5 years that the Wolverines know how to develop NBA players. So, I don't exactly know where this is coming from.