What is Anthony Black's ceiling? I know another AB thread

basketballRob · Post #81 » by **basketballRob** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:24 am

Knightro wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Haliburton has the same release.

You gotta cut this out man

It's the truth. I'm not saying he’s making them at the same rate, but his release is the same.

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Post #82 » by **Knightro** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:29 am

basketballRob wrote:It's the truth. I'm not saying he’s making them at the same rate, but his release is the same.

But making them is literally the entire thing. The release, ultimately, is completely irrelevant.

basketballRob · Post #83 » by **basketballRob** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:34 am

Knightro wrote:
basketballRob wrote:It's the truth. I'm not saying he’s making them at the same rate, but his release is the same.

But making them is literally the entire thing. The release, ultimately, is completely irrelevant.

The shot looks good to me for a 19 year old. Hopefully, they turn him loose for a game or two at the end of the season if we clinch a spot.

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Mad Guru · Post #84 » by **Mad Guru** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:09 am

thelead wrote:
Mad Guru wrote:He needs to get to league average from three otherwise his ceiling isn't that high.

As a heads up, league average is .365. AB is at .366. So technically, he’s already above league average. But we can call it AT league average… as a rookie. Not bad for a 19 year old ‘that can’t shoot’.

Ok... you are right, technically.

I would hardly call what he is doing "shooting" though.

The dude, dribbles a couple times, passes it to our playmakers then stands somewhere along the corner waiting for... and I mean it, WIDE OPEN shots. Like no one within 10 feet shots.

He's essentially PJ Tucker on offense, and absolutely no one is calling PJ Tucker a shooter.

I'm optimistic, especially given Suggs improvement, clearly the Magic are putting an onus on shooting improvement, while also hamstringing themselves with players that aren't shooters.

I don't know if we have a single player other than maybe Cole who can create a moderately efficient three point shot for themselves.

Bergmaniac · Post #85 » by **Bergmaniac** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:25 pm

basketballRob wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
Yeah but he barely shoots. To a pretty drastic degree. Looks like he’s in the bottom like 2-3% of guards at 3pt shooting volume, with pretty much only a bunch of non shooting centers beneath him. Not saying that to condemn him but it’s one thing to shoot an average percentage and another to shoot that percentage on an average volume of shots.

Exactly. He never takes 3s off the dribble, he only shoots in catch and shoot situations when he is wide open. In 28 games he has shot 3 pull-up threes in total and only 2 of his 3 point attempts had not been wide open. So I wouldn't call him a league average shooter yet.
That's hilarious. It just seems like you're searching for a reason not to give him credit.

The hilarious part is your over the top obsession with Black. He's been very good, but nowhere near enough for the type of praise you give him 20 times a day. "On track to be better than Penny Hardaway", etc, etc.

My post was purely factual. A player is not a league average shooter from 3 if he has Black's shot profile and percentage. Catch and shoot 3s are higher percentage shots than pull-ups and obviously wide open 3s are easier than other 3s. A league average shooter who only takes wide open shots from the corners and never shoots off the dribble will shoot 40% or more.

Black is a smart player who knows his limitations and plays a very disciplined game. And he's approved improved as a shooter from where he was in college. I love his defence too. Is that enough giving credit for you?

Probably not since I am not ready to proclaim he will be better than Penny.

Optimus_Steel · Post #86 » by **Optimus_Steel** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 2:03 pm

I think he is doing fine. We are trying to win games now so he is playing his role and the coaches trust him. He has shown flashes and he has a skill set base to work with. The NYK board is giving Black a ton of credit for defending Brunson well.

Post #87 » by **eyriq** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:21 pm

Read on Twitter

?t=2k4ma_cF-4sSncJ0SIUF7Q&s=19

Skybox · Post #88 » by **Skybox** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:52 pm

His defense is for real. His offense is kind of non-existent (for now).

I think he's got Lonzo Ball upside (maybe)...which, imo, is All-Star.

Both are big for PGs...allowing them to see over and around defenders

Both are excellent defenders - I'd even give AB the nod already, he's exceptional

Both can handle well enough to be true PGs, not Kyrie (but also not Suggs :roll:

)

Lonzo wasn't a shooter coming into the league...but he became a high-volume spot up shooter. Black also, given time and space, can and will shoot 3's - so far, so good. Not the same kind of 40% guys that pull up on a dime, but still...very good with the right roster.

Lonzo was supposed to be Magic Johnson/Jason Kidd type floor general...racking up showtime assists...BBIQ off the charts. Lonzo wasn't so much flashy at his best, but very effective at making the right pass and/or the hockey assist. Kind of like Ingles at his best.
Black is, for some reason, getting heralded for his BBIQ...I don't see where the basis for that is (yet). He tends to dribble up and hand it off quickly for now...maybe he's got "it", maybe he doesn't but we haven't seen him do anything that looks like "running an offense", imo...he's a rookie, clearly deferring - when we say Fultz is "deferring because he's a floor general" I laugh, but AB is a rook, so we can give him the benefit of the doubt. He also seems very emotional, which can be really good or bad. He doesn't seem intimidated by anyone and he competes on every play. I don't even know if AB's realistic future is as a PG, but I hope so. Good news is he can probably do just about whatever he's asked...but that doesn't solve our backcourt scoring need. Relying on Paolo & Franz is like having no passing game in the NFL and expecting to just run every down and keep winning. I used to go to Army games and they would run the wishbone offense, effectively running 4 tailbacks (including the QB) and NO receivers. They were so effective that they would routinely crush pretty good teams, even though they knew what was coming, but they could never really be a major bowl threat doing that. That's how it looks to me watching Paolo & Franz drive to the hoop every time down the court. Sometimes it works, sometimes (especially against good teams) it looks hopelessly limited....and we say "Franz and/or Paolo had an off night".

I could see him becoming really good at offensive rebounding...he's big, crafty, and relentless. I like him next to a scorer like Cole...which is also how I feel about Suggs. Suggs has been showing a lot more flashes of offense, but still not reliable enough to crown him. I don't like Black/Suggs combo, at this point at least, because neither is a reliable scoring threat. I'd say either/or could start and we should be looking at a starting combo guard-type who can score in bunches and SHOOT 3's aggressively to fill out our backcourt rotation. AB's versatility is exciting, but he and Suggs have a lot of overlap...AB is a better ball handler but he doesn't really set the table or create offense. Suggs is a more electric scorer but he can't be counted on to shoot well every night, so both need a backcourt mate who can shoot - not each other.

So, ideally ...
Black/Herro with Suggs/Cole
or Tyus/Suggs with Black/Cole
or Quickley/Suggs with Black/Cole
or Simons/Suggs with Black/Cole
maybe even...Black/Hield with Suggs/Cole
(these are just "types" to illustrate how I see AB and Suggs fitting in an improved backcourt rotation...I don't think the idea of Suggs coming off the bench is an insult-he can be really impactful and, perhaps play more minutes than anyone)

basketballRob · Post #89 » by **basketballRob** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 3:58 pm

Welcome aboard, Skybox!

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Skybox · Post #90 » by **Skybox** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:16 pm

basketballRob wrote:Welcome aboard, Skybox!

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I think we're maybe 50/50 in our agreement on Black...for now

meatwad4343 · Post #91 » by **meatwad4343** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:03 pm

He hits his jumpers and 3s at a decent clip for someone who was labeled as having no shooting ability at all. He does remind me a lot of lonzo, came into the league and can't shoot but was solid defensively. I think especially with the work ab seems to be putting in that he can at least become respectable if not above average from 3, combine that with him on a trajectory to be elite defensively and I think we have a good piece to our core

HotelVitale · Post #92 » by **HotelVitale** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:31 pm

Skybox wrote:Lonzo wasn't a shooter coming into the league...but he became a high-volume spot up shooter. Black also, given time and space, can and will shoot 3's - so far, so good. Not the same kind of 40% guys that pull up on a dime, but still...very good with the right roster)

meatwad4343 wrote: He does remind me a lot of lonzo, came into the league and can't shoot but was solid defensively.

Not sure why this shooting comp keeps coming up, but Lonzo was famous for shooting in HS and he shot over 40% at UCLA on big volume. And he took well more than twice as many 3s per minute as AB starting right away in the NBA. Ball had notoriously weird form and his % was low his rookie year, so people started calling him a disappointing shooter but he was never the type of low volume shooter AB is. Just took him working out some kinks for him to be a very solid NBA shooter.

Skybox · Post #93 » by **Skybox** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:36 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Skybox wrote:Lonzo wasn't a shooter coming into the league...but he became a high-volume spot up shooter. Black also, given time and space, can and will shoot 3's - so far, so good. Not the same kind of 40% guys that pull up on a dime, but still...very good with the right roster)

meatwad4343 wrote: He does remind me a lot of lonzo, came into the league and can't shoot but was solid defensively.

Not sure why this shooting comp keeps coming up, but Lonzo was famous for shooting in HS and he shot over 40% at UCLA on big volume. And he took well more than twice as many 3s per minute as AB starting right away in the NBA. Ball had notoriously weird form and his % was low his rookie year, so people started calling him a disappointing shooter but he was never the type of low volume shooter AB is. Just took him working out some kinks for him to be a very solid NBA shooter.

not the way I remembered, but I can't say I looked it up...possibly I'm clouding it with the third good comp, Jason Kidd. Thanks for the correction.

*I'd reiterate that the special BBIQ offensively of Kidd and Lonzo IS the big thing and not something we've seen yet from AB. Hope he's got it.

Post #94 » by **Knightro** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:39 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
Skybox wrote:Lonzo wasn't a shooter coming into the league...but he became a high-volume spot up shooter. Black also, given time and space, can and will shoot 3's - so far, so good. Not the same kind of 40% guys that pull up on a dime, but still...very good with the right roster)

meatwad4343 wrote: He does remind me a lot of lonzo, came into the league and can't shoot but was solid defensively.

Not sure why this shooting comp keeps coming up, but Lonzo was famous for shooting in HS and he shot over 40% at UCLA on big volume. And he took well more than twice as many 3s per minute as AB starting right away in the NBA. Ball had notoriously weird form and his % was low his rookie year, so people started calling him a disappointing shooter but he was never the type of low volume shooter AB is. Just took him working out some kinks for him to be a very solid NBA shooter.

Lonzo completely overhauled his shot form once he got to the NBA for what it’s worth.