Doc Rivers cost us Tim Duncan...

[otownflava21]

Pepe…

Name someone Tmac played with in Orlando that was better than Antoine Walker. I’d love to hear who you say.

Fact is, team accomplishments cannot be weighed towards a players ability, especially when the players team barely has starter-NBA level talent.

Giving Tmac an Antoine Walker would have helped him with the team accomplish reports, such as win-loss records, playoff appearances/wins, etc

Plus it’s extremely hard to argue that Pierce surpasses Tmac using the “eye test”. If Tmac is a 9, Pierce is an 8.

[pepe1991]

Pepe…

Name someone Tmac played with in Orlando that was better than Antoine Walker. I’d love to hear who you say.

Fact is, team accomplishments cannot be weighed towards a players ability, especially when the players team barely has starter-NBA level talent.

Giving Tmac an Antoine Walker would have helped him with the team accomplish reports, such as win-loss records, playoff appearances/wins, etc

Plus it’s extremely hard to argue that Pierce surpasses Tmac using the “eye test”. If Tmac is a 9, Pierce is an 8.

That's why i brought 2002 Hornets series. Teams with identical records. It was his time to shine. Hornets didn't have their best player aveliable, it was Baron Davis and 8 people that only their kids can recognize in public vs T mac and his no-name squad.
And he still got outplayed . And They still lost.

Than he goes to Houston, in times when Ming is probably second or best center in basketball, and same crap continues.
2005- vs Dallas in 7 games series, in 7th game they lose by 42 points and he shoots 10-26 FG
2006- both are hurt, miss playoffs
2007- they have stacked roster of Batier, Juwan Howard, best year of Alston, whatever is left from Mutombo for backup C, but they once again choke it out in game 7 ( first round ofc) vs Jazz as Houston choked out 3-2 lead ( as Tracy shoots 8-23 in game 6 at home ).
2008- rematch vs Utah, no Ming, goes as expected.


I already mentioned in first post, Tracy wasn't only player who had no supporting cast in that era. But Tracy is only mega star of that era that never achived jack****t in playoffs.

This is starting 5 that Iverson carried to second round in 2000:
Theo Ratliff
Tyron Hill
George Linch
Aaron McKie

not a single person from that starting 5 averaged more than 9ppg for career.

Carter carried group of Raptors mediocrities to game 7 of second round, and you have names like: Antonio Davis,Alvin Williams, Chris Childs and 37 years old Charles Oaakley. This group has execlly 0 people averaging 10 ppg for career ( including Oakley).

Plus it’s extremely hard to argue that Pierce surpasses Tmac using the “eye test”. If Tmac is a 9, Pierce is an 8

And i guess that's a whole point. His myth and highlights are amazing. And mostly newer generation only sees that. They remember him as amazing shooter ( guy shot 33,8% for 3 for career, hardly could shoot 30% in Houston ), people remember him as amazing dunker, in reality he could harldy dunk pass age of 28, people remember him as some 3 level scorer, his efficiency is garbage and worst than Carmelo Anthony who is being penalized for same things Tracy gets hyped, despite fact Carmelo did all that better/longer.

Watch on YouTube

And if you ever ask yourself why his health was s***, look at video of him working out. It's 101 tuttorial how to not lift weight. Pretty much maxing out weight he can't lift, using twich & motion to lift weights, holding shoulders in terrible positions that put too much pressure etc.

When you look s***t like this, makes you wonder how he even lasted until age of 28.

[magicsanta]

Pepe is spot on

[Rainwater]

Pepe…

Name someone Tmac played with in Orlando that was better than Antoine Walker. I’d love to hear who you say.

Fact is, team accomplishments cannot be weighed towards a players ability, especially when the players team barely has starter-NBA level talent.

Giving Tmac an Antoine Walker would have helped him with the team accomplish reports, such as win-loss records, playoff appearances/wins, etc

Plus it’s extremely hard to argue that Pierce surpasses Tmac using the “eye test”. If Tmac is a 9, Pierce is an 8.

That's why i brought 2002 Hornets series. Teams with identical records. It was his time to shine. Hornets didn't have their best player aveliable, it was Baron Davis and 8 people that only their kids can recognize in public vs T mac and his no-name squad.
And he still got outplayed . And They still lost.

Than he goes to Houston, in times when Ming is probably second or best center in basketball, and same crap continues.
2005- vs Dallas in 7 games series, in 7th game they lose by 42 points and he shoots 10-26 FG
2006- both are hurt, miss playoffs
2007- they have stacked roster of Batier, Juwan Howard, best year of Alston, whatever is left from Mutombo for backup C, but they once again choke it out in game 7 ( first round ofc) vs Jazz as Houston choked out 3-2 lead ( as Tracy shoots 8-23 in game 6 at home ).
2008- rematch vs Utah, no Ming, goes as expected.


I already mentioned in first post, Tracy wasn't only player who had no supporting cast in that era. But Tracy is only mega star of that era that never achived jack****t in playoffs.

This is starting 5 that Iverson carried to second round in 2000:
Theo Ratliff
Tyron Hill
George Linch
Aaron McKie

not a single person from that starting 5 averaged more than 9ppg for career.

Carter carried group of Raptors mediocrities to game 7 of second round, and you have names like: Antonio Davis,Alvin Williams, Chris Childs and 37 years old Charles Oaakley. This group has execlly 0 people averaging 10 ppg for career ( including Oakley).

Plus it’s extremely hard to argue that Pierce surpasses Tmac using the “eye test”. If Tmac is a 9, Pierce is an 8

And i guess that's a whole point. His myth and highlights are amazing. And mostly newer generation only sees that. They remember him as amazing shooter ( guy shot 33,8% for 3 for career, hardly could shoot 30% in Houston ), people remember him as amazing dunker, in reality he could harldy dunk pass age of 28, people remember him as some 3 level scorer, his efficiency is garbage and worst than Carmelo Anthony who is being penalized for same things Tracy gets hyped, despite fact Carmelo did all that better/longer.

Watch on YouTube

And if you ever ask yourself why his health was s***, look at video of him working out. It's 101 tuttorial how to not lift weight. Pretty much maxing out weight he can't lift, using twich & motion to lift weights, holding shoulders in terrible positions that put too much pressure etc.

When you look s***t like this, makes you wonder how he even lasted until age of 28.

Pepe, I just disagree.

I would not say that T-Mac got outplayed by Baron Davis in that 01-02 series, he might have been the best player arguably. T-Mac did post 30 (Series High and 2002 playoff high), 6.3, 5.5 and nearly 2 blocks in that series compared to the 25, 9, and 9.3 from Davis. What did the magic in that series was not anything that T-Mac did (he did lead the team in points, asts and blocks) but he got little help from other teammates. Other than T-Mac, there were only two other guys that avg double figures (Hudson and Armstrong) compared to the 4 (excluding Davis) for the hornets.

And out of Philly, Orlando, and Tor in 2001, T-Mac by far had the weakest team. Philly was the best defensive team that year with two all-stars in AI and Dikembe who respectively won MVP and Defensive player of the year, and they also had the 6th man of the year. And Tor also had an All Star in Davis that year as well. T-Mac was basically by himself in Orlando.

Lol, I would not consider 2007 Rockets stacked.

I will always hate that guys like T-Mac will always be judged by their playoff success when playoff/champion success is a team accomplishment and not an individual accomplishment. T-mac can't help who he played beside. Put AI or Paul on those same Magic teams and they would not do much more than what T-Mac accomplished.

[Rainwater]

He wishes he’d be comparable to Pierce

Paul was never as good as T-Mac. Paul is lucky that KG and Allen saved him and won a title or people would barely remember him.

Hot take alert ?



Career vise, durability, team accomplishments, playoffs, Pierce smokes him in everything.

Yes, Paul has more team accomplishments such as titles and playoff wins (because of his better teammates) and was more durable but as a player T-Mac was just better. Despite a shorter prime, T-Mac had more all team selections (Paul doesn't even have a first team selection), had more Top 10 MVP shares, the advance stats (particularly Per) during his prime years favor T-Mac. T-Mac was a better passer, scorer, and even defender when compared to Pierce. T-Mac was arguably a top 5 player at one point, Paul never was.

Yes, Paul has more Team accolades, nobody is debating that, but he was not a better player than T-Mac.

[pepe1991]

Pepe…

Name someone Tmac played with in Orlando that was better than Antoine Walker. I’d love to hear who you say.

Fact is, team accomplishments cannot be weighed towards a players ability, especially when the players team barely has starter-NBA level talent.

Giving Tmac an Antoine Walker would have helped him with the team accomplish reports, such as win-loss records, playoff appearances/wins, etc

Plus it’s extremely hard to argue that Pierce surpasses Tmac using the “eye test”. If Tmac is a 9, Pierce is an 8.

That's why i brought 2002 Hornets series. Teams with identical records. It was his time to shine. Hornets didn't have their best player aveliable, it was Baron Davis and 8 people that only their kids can recognize in public vs T mac and his no-name squad.
And he still got outplayed . And They still lost.

Than he goes to Houston, in times when Ming is probably second or best center in basketball, and same crap continues.
2005- vs Dallas in 7 games series, in 7th game they lose by 42 points and he shoots 10-26 FG
2006- both are hurt, miss playoffs
2007- they have stacked roster of Batier, Juwan Howard, best year of Alston, whatever is left from Mutombo for backup C, but they once again choke it out in game 7 ( first round ofc) vs Jazz as Houston choked out 3-2 lead ( as Tracy shoots 8-23 in game 6 at home ).
2008- rematch vs Utah, no Ming, goes as expected.


I already mentioned in first post, Tracy wasn't only player who had no supporting cast in that era. But Tracy is only mega star of that era that never achived jack****t in playoffs.

This is starting 5 that Iverson carried to second round in 2000:
Theo Ratliff
Tyron Hill
George Linch
Aaron McKie

not a single person from that starting 5 averaged more than 9ppg for career.

Carter carried group of Raptors mediocrities to game 7 of second round, and you have names like: Antonio Davis,Alvin Williams, Chris Childs and 37 years old Charles Oaakley. This group has execlly 0 people averaging 10 ppg for career ( including Oakley).

Plus it’s extremely hard to argue that Pierce surpasses Tmac using the “eye test”. If Tmac is a 9, Pierce is an 8

And i guess that's a whole point. His myth and highlights are amazing. And mostly newer generation only sees that. They remember him as amazing shooter ( guy shot 33,8% for 3 for career, hardly could shoot 30% in Houston ), people remember him as amazing dunker, in reality he could harldy dunk pass age of 28, people remember him as some 3 level scorer, his efficiency is garbage and worst than Carmelo Anthony who is being penalized for same things Tracy gets hyped, despite fact Carmelo did all that better/longer.

Watch on YouTube

And if you ever ask yourself why his health was s***, look at video of him working out. It's 101 tuttorial how to not lift weight. Pretty much maxing out weight he can't lift, using twich & motion to lift weights, holding shoulders in terrible positions that put too much pressure etc.

When you look s***t like this, makes you wonder how he even lasted until age of 28.

Pepe, I just disagree.

I would not say that T-Mac got outplayed by Baron Davis in that 01-02 series, he might have been the best player arguably. T-Mac did post 30 (Series High and 2002 playoff high), 6.3, 5.5 and nearly 2 blocks in that series compared to the 25, 9, and 9.3 from Davis. What did the magic in that series was not anything that T-Mac did (he did lead the team in points, asts and blocks) but he got little help from other teammates. Other than T-Mac, there were only two other guys that avg double figures (Hudson and Armstrong) compared to the 4 (excluding Davis) for the hornets.

And out of Philly, Orlando, and Tor in 2001, T-Mac by far had the weakest team. Philly was the best defensive team that year with two all-stars in AI and Dikembe who respectively won MVP and Defensive player of the year, and they also had the 6th man of the year. And Tor also had an All Star in Davis that year as well. T-Mac was basically by himself in Orlando.

Lol, I would not consider 2007 Rockets stacked.

I will always hate that guys like T-Mac will always be judged by their playoff success when playoff/champion success is a team accomplishment and not an individual accomplishment. T-mac can't help who he played beside. Put AI or Paul on those same Magic teams and they would not do much more than what T-Mac accomplished.

I would not say that T-Mac got outplayed by Baron Davis in that 01-02 series, he might have been the best player arguably.

Context matters. You have two similar teams, with similar record, one team lacks their best scorer, it's matchup of 22 years old upcomming stars, Baron vs T mac. And Hornets beat you 3-1 .
Baron wasn't just leading PPG, APG & SPG guy on a team, he was second in rebounds and even blocks ( guy is 6'2).
Tracy , as usual pumped his stats, but in process took 29% of all shots of a team. 34% usage rate.
And let's take even step further, 4th quater production.
Game 1: Tracy 8 points/ 2-6 FG / 0 assists, 2 rebounds. vs Baron 10 points, 3-8 FG /1 assist , 2 rebounds
Game 2 (4th quater + OT ): Tracy 4 points / 0-5 FG / 3 assists, 6 rebounds vs Baron 3 points / 1-4 FG/ 2 assists, 3 rebounds
Game 3 ( 4th quater + OT) : Tracy 10 points / 3-5 FG/ 1 assist , 1 rebound/ vs Baron 13 points /4-5 FG/ 3 assists , 7 rebounds

Game 4 : Tracy 8 points/ 2-3 FG / 1 assists, 1 rebound vs Davis 7 points / 2-3 FG, 3 assists, 4 rebounds

Baron simply did more when it needed the most. Especially pivotal game 3 OT when Tracy goes 0-0 FG, 1 rebound 1 assist where Baron goes 9-3-1.

And it's not JUST his regular season record.

478-460 . That's his career regular season record. He was HARDLY .500 wins guy. 50,8% win rate. This does NOT include game of his team played without him, this is HIS record .

Paul Pierce, who people here called out for whatever reason, had 758-585 record.

Problem with Tracy isn't just with Magic, he got even more notorious in Houston. He shot way worst, his efficiency was painful even by that era ( guy added negative value with shooting, that ofc didn't stop him from having +32% usage rate & 22 shots a game ).
But in Houston whole "no help "excuse was gone. He had Yao. But he never wanted to change. Look at 2004-05 playoffs for example.
Tracy 30 ppg
Yao 21 ppg

Tracy 24,4 shots a game
Yao 12 shots a game

Tracy 55% TS
Yao 69%

It's mindblowing how player with that magnitude can't adjust and just let go notion of being "alpha" scorer and nothing else. Yao was better player in that moment than him, way more impactful, had very favorable matchup ( Dallas with Dirk and no serious C in rotation in sight but Dampier, who wasn't even good C to being with ) but no. With Tracy it's always all about him.
It's silly really. Yao 84 shots, 150 points. Tracy 171 shot- 215 points. Guy shot near 90 shots more to put 65 points more, total Btw same crap torn Shaq & Kobe apart because Kobe's ego got into Shaq's way of winning, in this case it's waaaay worst.

This btw, repeated itself in 2007 playoffs, Yao 25,1 ppg on 18 shots, Tracy 25,3 points on 23 shots efficiency, Tracy 47,8% TS, Yao 56% .


So what's there to add? Tracy was guy who only was "good" when nobody had any expetations and when there was nobody around him to put him in shade. He couldn't stand notion somebody is better than him on his own team. That is pretty much key reason why he flee from Toronto in first place. Tells you a lot about mentality of player who cares more about "making name for himself" by joining worst team, than making it work with player who is better than him, and happends to be his cousin AND has several good players around them.


I don't hate Tracy, but myth of him is way ,way way bigger than what Tracy actually was. He was crazy potential that peaked on 44 wins team in early 20s and never had another level , nor desire to change his game to win more.
He is pretty much anti- Tim Duncan. All me- no team. All stats- zero sucess. When playoffs rolled, TImmy would take his game to another level, Tracy's game would decline and turn into inefficient bombing .


Tracy was what Tracy was. Guy exiting to watch on highlights. I would rank him there with some Westbrook / Derozan. Stats way better than anything eye test would suggest. Sure, Derozan won multiple playoff series as best player but fine.
It's hard to find fair comparison. Nobody nowdays gets 35% usage rate to lose every year in first round. NBA got smarter. Fans should too.

[magicsanta]

Paul was never as good as T-Mac. Paul is lucky that KG and Allen saved him and won a title or people would barely remember him.

Hot take alert ?



Career vise, durability, team accomplishments, playoffs, Pierce smokes him in everything.

Yes, Paul has more team accomplishments such as titles and playoff wins (because of his better teammates) and was more durable but as a player T-Mac was just better. Despite a shorter prime, T-Mac had more all team selections (Paul doesn't even have a first team selection), had more Top 10 MVP shares, the advance stats (particularly Per) during his prime years favor T-Mac. T-Mac was a better passer, scorer, and even defender when compared to Pierce. T-Mac was arguably a top 5 player at one point, Paul never was.

Yes, Paul has more Team accolades, nobody is debating that, but he was not a better player than T-Mac.

How are Paul's accomplishments "inflated" by his teammates and T-Mac's stats not inflated by his -lack thereof-?

I don't know why I bother

[magicsanta]

As a Magic fan, the TMac era was the most frustrating ever. TMac ISOs is all they did and they had the second worst record in the history of the team 'cause he's not even close to being as good as you make him to be. The Celtics were much more successful with Pierce as their main guy even before KG and Ray Allen. And he still led them when they won it all...

[pepe1991]

As a Magic fan, the TMac era was the most frustrating ever. TMac ISOs is all they did and they had the second worst record in the history of the team 'cause he's not even close to being as good as you make him to be. The Celtics were much more successful with Pierce as their main guy even before KG and Ray Allen. And he still led them when they won it all...

Pivotal information to understand T mac is how Magic got him.
He left Raptors, 45-37 team ,where he was promoted into a starter, as 21 years old and started all 3 playoff games and btw, sucked in them.
Why? Because he cared more about him becomming star than about winning basketball. From gates, to his last days in Houston, Tracy only cared about Tracy and his numbers.
He wanted to win, but only as long as he is key reason why wins happen. That's why him and Yao never accomplished anything, he would shoot x2 shots of Yao just to average more points.

Hill got broken and it's just damn shame, but they menaged to play 43 games together. Cumulative record: 20-23.


I belive, i can't find it now, that even Phil Jackson once took a jab at him saying Tracy only has back problems when somebody asks him to play defense

[tiderulz]

how did Doc Rivers costing us Duncan turn into a TMac discussion?

[Skybox]

how did Doc Rivers costing us Duncan turn into a TMac discussion?

the same way every thread turns into a Fultz debate

[Rainwater]

how did Doc Rivers costing us Duncan turn into a TMac discussion?

the same way every thread turns into a Fultz debate

Fultz is gone so that will no longer be an issue, lol.

[pepe1991]

how did Doc Rivers costing us Duncan turn into a TMac discussion?

Because people write nonsense like this

I think McGrady mightve ended up more like or more known as a Baron Davis or Paul Pierce type player in Chicago rather than a premier type guard being compared to his peers like Kobe, Iverson, and Carter.