2024-2025 Regular Season Game 32: Miami Heat (14-13) at Orlando Magic (19-12) - 7pm

[JoshuaPotter]

What's one got to do with the other?
Either we know from what we've seen to date that we need to rebalance the roster or we don’t know.

Most of us feel we know by now. And have for some time.

Do we though?

We've seen all of like 3 games with leveled up Year 3 Paolo and leveled up Year 4 Franz together healthy with a bevy of hard nosed role players in their ideal roles and not being stretched beyond their reasonable capabilities with those guys out.

The offense was bad last year because Paolo and Franz weren't efficient enough. Paolo as an overall scorer and with turnovers. Franz with three point shooting.

If they've both leveled up and gotten better at the things they were weak at last year, and the early indications are they both have improved those weaknesses, the offense will be a lot better with nothing else changed whatsoever.

Injuries have, unfortunately, robbed us from seeing how that would play out over an extended stretch.

To be fair, I am more disappointed about the KCP signing then anything else. I know its complicated and let's definitely see what we look like should we all come back healthy, right now, it looks rough.

I also thing the struggle is as always the telegraphed "internal development is our north star" when on paper some of our assets could be used to improve the roster and maybe this costs us some chemistry. I am not sure.

The final nail in the coffin to this argument for me is though. Which is why I don't jump up and down. I think, as the roster is constructed, we have a team of dedicated to win ballers who do not see the game solely as a paycheck and many of them feel they have something to prove or desire to be the best version of themselves. This is a hard lightning in a bottle to capture. An example of this is Ja Morant, Zion Williamson. Both on paper should have been the next heir apparent, but they miss something and it aint talent.

[pepe1991]

You can't compare Magic with 76ers or Suns of the world because those teams are at different stages. Their best players are on vet max exstensions and make over $50M a year. Paolo and Franz combine today for what, $18 M?

There was period in their careers where Embiid could miss 19 games (2017-18 ) and still 76ers could win 11 outof 19 games without him because he was on rookie scale contract and they could stack bench with talent, enter offseason ,add Harris, Butler ,sign Embiid on max because Simmons max contract was far enough.


Ditto to OKC in 2011 when all of their future MVPs combined for $17M salary, and that allowed OKC to overpay center position, and do piss poor decisions by overpaying wrong role players just because they thought they are important for that exect winning core.


As for whole notion of salary cap booming, guess what, salary cap will also boom for each and every big market team as well ,and they will stack their teams more.

OKC/Presti got smarter this time around, he figured he pissed away his title hope in 2011 by betting on future that never arrived. This time around he is chasing in chips to win today , because tomarrow isn't granted.

[Knightro]

You can't compare Magic with 76ers or Suns of the world because those teams are at different stages. Their best players are on vet max exstensions and make over $50M a year. Paolo and Franz combine today for what, $18 M?

This is precisely the reason to NOT be worried.

Franz and Suggs' 5 years contract extensions haven't even kicked in yet. Paolo's 5 year contract hasn't even been agreed to yet.

The Celtics won the NBA title in Jaylen Brown's 8th season and Jayson Tatum's 7th season, ya know?

We're in Paolo Year 3 and Franz/Suggs Year 4.

There's a lot of time to figure out what exactly this team needs to become a title contender.

[byeganyo]

You can't compare Magic with 76ers or Suns of the world because those teams are at different stages. Their best players are on vet max exstensions and make over $50M a year. Paolo and Franz combine today for what, $18 M?

This is precisely the reason to NOT be worried.

Franz and Suggs' 5 years contract extensions haven't even kicked in yet. Paolo's 5 year contract hasn't even been agreed to yet.

The Celtics won the NBA title in Jaylen Brown's 8th season and Jayson Tatum's 7th season, ya know?

We're in Paolo Year 3 and Franz/Suggs Year 4.

There's a lot of time to figure out what exactly this team needs to become a title contender.

Effects of certain decisions tend to linger.
Boston needed to go to conference finals and finals before winning the title - how close is Orlando to this?
Boston needed to draft the time lord and later to trade him for Jrue - who is this good but tradeable asset that Orlando has already taken in the draft, if you want to follow Bostom timeline?

Each game should be used as an evaluation, because there are other players on this roster apart from Franz and Paolo.

[VFX]

What's one got to do with the other?
Either we know from what we've seen to date that we need to rebalance the roster or we don’t know.

Most of us feel we know by now. And have for some time.

.

Injuries have, unfortunately, robbed us from seeing how that would play out over an extended stretch.

Man.

The addition of KCP must have really solved everything.

Unless of course you think one offseason of internal development has changed everything about the system we already saw for 82 games.

Or is there a level of nuance we are failing to accept here?

Do you think Orlando is done building around 3 players that are in years 3-4?

If not, then why is the answer to every outcome this season (whether good or bad) “yeah we don’t know yet to make statements”. Did Boston stop gauging trades and making moves on the fringes in years 3/4 of Tatum and Brown? No? Ok then maybe we should be aware of how these guys operate with and without 2.5 max level players already.

You can accept that people know who players are and who they aren’t without needing to see 100% of their minutes next to 2 guys for 2-3 fully healthy seasons right? Throwing an entire season of data out the window because it doesn’t fit your narrative is also kind of silly.

If the answer to this is that we need to wait until years 6/7, then you have a crazy amount of trust that Weltman and co will start firing off decisions in a 2 year window, which is something we have yet to see since the rebuild.

[Idiosyncratic]

What's one got to do with the other?
Either we know from what we've seen to date that we need to rebalance the roster or we don’t know.

Most of us feel we know by now. And have for some time.

.

Injuries have, unfortunately, robbed us from seeing how that would play out over an extended stretch.

Man.

The addition of KCP must have really solved everything.

Unless of course you think one offseason of internal development has changed everything about the system we already saw for 82 games.

Or is there a level of nuance we are failing to accept here?

Do you think Orlando is done building around 3 players that are in years 3-4?

If not, then why is the answer to every outcome this season (whether good or bad) “yeah we don’t know yet to make statements”. Did Boston stop gauging trades and making moves on the fringes in years 3/4 of Tatum and Brown? No? Ok then maybe we should be aware of how these guys operate with and without 2.5 max level players already.

You can accept that people know who players are and who they aren’t without needing to see 100% of their minutes next to 2 guys for 2-3 fully healthy seasons right? Throwing an entire season of data out the window because it doesn’t fit your narrative is also kind of silly.

If the answer to this is that we need to wait until years 6/7, then you have a crazy amount of trust that Weltman and co will start firing off decisions in a 2 year window, which is something we have yet to see since the rebuild.

Boston is such a weird comparison because they were already good when they drafted Tatum and Brown, they just got lucky from the awful Nets trade.

Even beyond that, after the Kyrie swap they didn't trade a 1st rounder to support Tatum and Brown until after Tatum's 3rd year for Al Horford. They mostly just made their picks and tried to develop role players. Grant Williams, Robert Williams, Sam Hauser (undrafted) and Pritchard all worked out as good role players. They kept making deep runs and then made all-in trades for Jrue and Porzingis. The White trade is a trade the Magic should look to make, a guy with multiple years of control for late firsts, IF that guy is available.

They started from a much better spot than the Magic, they were a 50 win team and then drafted Brown and Tatum on top of that lol. But even they mostly just used their picks and filled the rotation that way until they eventually went all-in which was way later in Tatum and Brown's career than Paolo and Franz are.

[Knightro]

You can't compare Magic with 76ers or Suns of the world because those teams are at different stages. Their best players are on vet max exstensions and make over $50M a year. Paolo and Franz combine today for what, $18 M?

This is precisely the reason to NOT be worried.

Franz and Suggs' 5 years contract extensions haven't even kicked in yet. Paolo's 5 year contract hasn't even been agreed to yet.

The Celtics won the NBA title in Jaylen Brown's 8th season and Jayson Tatum's 7th season, ya know?

We're in Paolo Year 3 and Franz/Suggs Year 4.

There's a lot of time to figure out what exactly this team needs to become a title contender.

Effects of certain decisions tend to linger.
Boston needed to go to conference finals and finals before winning the title - how close is Orlando to this?
Boston needed to draft the time lord and later to trade him for Jrue - who is this good but tradeable asset that Orlando has already taken in the draft, if you want to follow Bostom timeline?

Each game should be used as an evaluation, because there are other players on this roster apart from Franz and Paolo.

Personally? Fully healthy I think you could at least make the case the Magic are the third best team in the East and could certainly win a first round series and be competitive in a second round series.

Boston is also a weird example anyway in terms of how competitive they were early on in Brown and Tatum's careers because they didn't acquire those two by tanking, they acquired them via trade.

The Celtics were a 48 win team the year they drafted Brown and a 53 win team the year they drafted Tatum.

They had an 2x All-Star and top 5 MVP finisher Isaiah Thomas who they were able to flip for Kyrie Irving, who when he walked, they were able to leverage the newfound cap space into Kemba Walker, who they were able to flip to reacquire Horford, etc and etc and etc.

If the Celtics had acquired Brown and Tatum by similar methods of tanking that every other team does generally to acquire top 3 picks, they wouldn't have been a legit contender for several years like basically every other team in that situation.

[Knightro]

Man.

The addition of KCP must have really solved everything.

Unless of course you think one offseason of internal development has changed everything about the system we already saw for 82 games.

Or is there a level of nuance we are failing to accept here?

Do you think Orlando is done building around 3 players that are in years 3-4?

If not, then why is the answer to every outcome this season (whether good or bad) “yeah we don’t know yet to make statements”. Did Boston stop gauging trades and making moves on the fringes in years 3/4 of Tatum and Brown? No? Ok then maybe we should be aware of how these guys operate with and without 2.5 max level players already.

You can accept that people know who players are and who they aren’t without needing to see 100% of their minutes next to 2 guys for 2-3 fully healthy seasons right? Throwing an entire season of data out the window because it doesn’t fit your narrative is also kind of silly.

If the answer to this is that we need to wait until years 6/7, then you have a crazy amount of trust that Weltman and co will start firing off decisions in a 2 year window, which is something we have yet to see since the rebuild.

If Paolo and Franz weren't still very obviously improving as players, as guys their ages typically do, I'd be much more on board with using last season as a real data point that matters in determining what this team should be doing moving forward.

But Paolo was an inefficient mess offensively for the most part and Franz had a spectacularly bad 3PT shooting season. Why would I or anyone else assume that's what those guys are gonna be moving forward? They'll be better than that and almost assuredly already are.

No one is suggesting the Magic have to wait 6 or 7 years before they make a decision on what this roster needs. That's silly hyperbole.

But my goodness some of y'all have the fast forward button jammed down like it needs to happen right this second.

Ultimately we're talking about a natural progression of things though, right?

Last year they won 47 games. They made the playoffs as a 5 seed and lost in 7 games.

This year the front office added KCP and IMO wanted to see how far things would go with Paolo, Franz and Suggs - who again are all improving - firmly entrenched as the 1st, 2nd and 3rd guys with a team culture and identity and solid role players that fit that culture and identity surrounding them.

So far this year, they've gotten unlucky with major injures, but do you not believe fully healthy this team could go further than last year?

You evaluate what the needs are the entire time, but ultimately when things stop progressing forward is when you actually make the moves that are needed to push the team to the next level.

Boston btw didn't blow up their roster every single year either, even though they started way further down the path than Orlando did. They tried with Thomas for three years. They tried with Kyrie for two years. They tried with Kemba for two years.

[pepe1991]

You can't compare Magic with 76ers or Suns of the world because those teams are at different stages. Their best players are on vet max exstensions and make over $50M a year. Paolo and Franz combine today for what, $18 M?

This is precisely the reason to NOT be worried.

Franz and Suggs' 5 years contract extensions haven't even kicked in yet. Paolo's 5 year contract hasn't even been agreed to yet.

The Celtics won the NBA title in Jaylen Brown's 8th season and Jayson Tatum's 7th season, ya know?

We're in Paolo Year 3 and Franz/Suggs Year 4.

There's a lot of time to figure out what exactly this team needs to become a title contender.

Tatum and Brown went to first Eastern Conference Finals as sophomore and third year player, ya know?

Tatum and Brown went to first nba grand final during their 4th and 5th season, ya know?


You 100% miss my point. You had grace period of good players on cheap contracts, your front office elected to piss them off "evaluating" things that didn't need to be evaluated because there was plenty of evidence to come to conclusion before.

We know for fact what team needs now to be more fucnional. Damn nba level guard who can handle ball without falling over a ball and who can actually set proper pick&roll without passing ball to 6th row under pressure. Too much?

btw, fact check yourself, Celtics traded first round pick for Kyrie (2018- turned into Sexton) and gave up rights on ZIzic, who they drafted 21st year prior, but as Euro stash he didn't play.

[eyriq]

You can't compare Magic with 76ers or Suns of the world because those teams are at different stages. Their best players are on vet max exstensions and make over $50M a year. Paolo and Franz combine today for what, $18 M?

This is precisely the reason to NOT be worried.

Franz and Suggs' 5 years contract extensions haven't even kicked in yet. Paolo's 5 year contract hasn't even been agreed to yet.

The Celtics won the NBA title in Jaylen Brown's 8th season and Jayson Tatum's 7th season, ya know?

We're in Paolo Year 3 and Franz/Suggs Year 4.

There's a lot of time to figure out what exactly this team needs to become a title contender.

Tatum and Brown went to first Eastern Conference Finals as sophomore and third year player, ya know?

Tatum and Brown went to first nba grand final during their 4th and 5th season, ya know?


You 100% miss my point. You had grace period of good players on cheap contracts, your front office elected to piss them off "evaluating" things that didn't need to be evaluated because there was plenty of evidence to come to conclusion before.

We know for fact what team needs now to be more fucnional. Damn nba level guard who can handle ball without falling over a ball and who can actually set proper pick&roll without passing ball to 6th row under pressure. Too much?

Their timeline was accelerated due to how they were acquired. Boston traded Pierce, Garnett, and Terry to the Nets in 2013 for multiple first round picks. The 2016 pick turned into the 3rd pick and Brown was selected. The 2017 pick turned into the 1st pick and was traded to Philly for the 3rd pick and they selected Tatum.

Brown and Tatum were added to playoff teams.

[pepe1991]

This is precisely the reason to NOT be worried.

Franz and Suggs' 5 years contract extensions haven't even kicked in yet. Paolo's 5 year contract hasn't even been agreed to yet.

The Celtics won the NBA title in Jaylen Brown's 8th season and Jayson Tatum's 7th season, ya know?

We're in Paolo Year 3 and Franz/Suggs Year 4.

There's a lot of time to figure out what exactly this team needs to become a title contender.

Tatum and Brown went to first Eastern Conference Finals as sophomore and third year player, ya know?

Tatum and Brown went to first nba grand final during their 4th and 5th season, ya know?


You 100% miss my point. You had grace period of good players on cheap contracts, your front office elected to piss them off "evaluating" things that didn't need to be evaluated because there was plenty of evidence to come to conclusion before.

We know for fact what team needs now to be more fucnional. Damn nba level guard who can handle ball without falling over a ball and who can actually set proper pick&roll without passing ball to 6th row under pressure. Too much?

Their timeline was accelerated due to how they were acquired. Boston traded Pierce, Garnett, and Terry to the Nets in 2013 for multiple first round picks. The 2016 pick turned into the 3rd pick and Brown was selected. The 2017 pick turned into the 1st pick and was traded to Philly for the 3rd pick and they selected Tatum.

Brown and Tatum were added to playoff teams.

Because Celtics are masterful at getting rid of declining assets before market notices they are on decline and are most proactive nba franchise.

For example, KG was aquired by trades of TWO lottery picks in 2009, but Wolves somehow menaged to miss on Steph Curry twice on same night. Celtics won title with KG, Wolves did nothing for a decade, got chance to change future, and just pooped their bed.

They got rid of Thomas year after guy got MVP votes.

Even last year they aquired two first round picks in trade for Porzingis.

[Knightro]

Because Celtics are masterful at getting rid of declining assets before market notices they are on decline and are most proactive nba franchise.

For example, KG was aquired by trades of TWO lottery picks in 2009, but Wolves somehow menaged to miss on Steph Curry twice on same night. Celtics won title with KG, Wolves did nothing for a decade, got chance to change future, and just pooped their bed.

They got rid of Thomas year after guy got MVP votes.

Even last year they aquired two first round picks in trade for Porzingis.

Pepe, regardless of all of that, you can't sit there and be like "oh well Brown and Tatum were in the conference finals in year 2 and 3 and the finals shortly after that" and just ignore the fact the Celtics won 48 games in 2016 (before Brown arrived) and 53 games in 2017 (before Tatum arrived).

The Celtics were the No. 1 seed in 2017 without Tatum and with Brown playing 17 MPG for goodness sake. They had a player finish top 5 in MVP that year.

The Magic had to slog through a 21 win season to get Franz and Suggs and then a 22 win season to get Paolo.

The Celtics were literally more than 30 wins further along the path!

It's just not at all the same thing at all.

[Knightro]

You 100% miss my point. You had grace period of good players on cheap contracts, your front office elected to piss them off "evaluating" things that didn't need to be evaluated because there was plenty of evidence to come to conclusion before.

We know for fact what team needs now to be more fucnional. Damn nba level guard who can handle ball without falling over a ball and who can actually set proper pick&roll without passing ball to 6th row under pressure. Too much?

btw, fact check yourself, Celtics traded first round pick for Kyrie (2018- turned into Sexton) and gave up rights on ZIzic, who they drafted 21st year prior, but as Euro stash he didn't play.

How many NBA teams in this era have won a championship while their best pieces were still on their rookie contracts? 'That doesn't really happen man.

And most teams who try and rush to build a winner around a young star player because they're afraid they're going to piss the player off end up screwing it up by rushing anyway (Cavs LeBron 1.0 era as the most obvious example).

Because in almost every scenario outside of some extremely fortunate trade like the Celtics/Nets, the teams who draft elite talents are only able to do so because they were horrendous the year before with a bad roster.

And it's hard to make a bad roster a really good roster without one thing... time.

And also fact check yourself.

The full Kyrie Irving trade was...

Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Žižić, and the rights to the Brooklyn Nets' 2018 first-round draft pick that ultimately turned into Collin Sexton.

But Thomas was coming off a season where he finished 5th in the MVP and averaged 29 PPG on a .625 TS%. Unfortunately he destroyed his hip in the playoffs and that effectively ended his career (not totally dissimilar to Grant Hill who got hurt in the playoffs right before signing a max with the Magic), but he was a major part of that deal.

[drsd]

My 2¢ on this.

Orlando is not only dead last in 3PT%, at 30.7% this is the worst distance shooting team since Minny in 2012-13.

The Magic is not just bad, this is a historically awful three-point shooting team.

[richi_v25]

My 2¢ on this.

Orlando is not only dead last in 3PT%, at 30.7% this is the worst distance shooting team since Minny in 2012-13.

The Magic is not just bad, this is a historically awful three-point shooting team.

If you ain't first you're last... shake and bake.

[Bergmaniac]

Atrocious offensive game by both teams, just painful to watch at times. Im the second quarter in particular ot looked both teams were still drunk from Christmas. The amount of boneheaded turnovers by both teams was incredible.

Our defensive hustle and execution were again very impressive but when you can't make a 3 and keep committing horrible turnovers you deserve to lose.

[Optimus_Steel]

My 2¢ on this.

Orlando is not only dead last in 3PT%, at 30.7% this is the worst distance shooting team since Minny in 2012-13.

The Magic is not just bad, this is a historically awful three-point shooting team.

If we shot the 3 better just slightly thats about 4 more wins which is nuts given the injuries. Last year we started awful as well and 2nd half of the season shot it much better. Hope that happens again.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Our bench was trash.12 points collectively. Gross.

We are down 4 rotational players. We are getting 3 back. Bench should improve.

So excited for Gary Harris. What a difference maker.

[Blue_and_Whte]

My 2¢ on this.

Orlando is not only dead last in 3PT%, at 30.7% this is the worst distance shooting team since Minny in 2012-13.

The Magic is not just bad, this is a historically awful three-point shooting team.

If we shot the 3 better just slightly thats about 4 more wins which is nuts given the injuries. Last year we started awful as well and 2nd half of the season shot it much better. Hope that happens again.

Or instead of hoping, trying to upgrade the roster. Watching Jett Howard on the bench is starting to piss me off when I see the likes of…almost anyone picked after him…. At the very least contribute.

[Skybox]

My 2¢ on this.

Orlando is not only dead last in 3PT%, at 30.7% this is the worst distance shooting team since Minny in 2012-13.

The Magic is not just bad, this is a historically awful three-point shooting team.

It's ok...they're young and developing