Why does ORL turn it over SOOOOO much?

[Idiosyncratic]

The answer to the OP's question is obvious for this reason. It's not a multiple choice answer.

I think everybody knows this, but they are (correctly) evaluating that we are not winning a chip this year and prioritizing development from our stars and trying to get minutes for our young guys still, to either have a cheap option moving forward to keep, or find out of they may be able to net us a really good player.

Spurs did this with Sochan at point. It wasn't pretty or successful, but if it made him even 10% more comfortable on ball, you take it. They didn't give Wemby any options last year to help him out and gave him CP3 this year. He's still taking a bunch of threes and he often talks about their development plan for him and how it's an evolving process. Raptors are doing it with Barnes and it's an ugly up and down process. These are teams that are losing doing this, and we were winning even with a lot of new responsibilities for our guys.

Franz is easily a better processor now by having all of that experience of on-ball pressure from college/rookie year until now. Paolo's first 5 games, he looked way more comfortable out there surveying the court and keeping his turnovers lower. These are not insignificant strides for our two best players.

AB is getting more minutes in general from not being blocked by anyone else.

It's not wrong to point out or THINK they shouldn't be doing any of this, that's your prerogative and your opinion, I just think it's extremely results-based before anything else.

Now, if their intention from it is because they think it's the best option, so they will NEVER get any sort of competent lead guard, even in the midst of contending, that's a bridge we'll cross when we get there. It's certainly a question because of how they've operated.

Terrific post.

[Skybox]

Mose has his limitations for sure...but he hasn't missed an open 3 or dribbled it off his foot all season.

the Sochan PG experiment set his progress back in my opinion...they should have just let him be the Rodman he's built to be - but many speculated that was just Pop finding a fun way to tank.

I don't have stats in front of me, but I don't get the feeling that the TO's are a recent development or "uptick" - attributable to our missing giant (non) PG's. I just think it's fairly obvious that having no competent proven PG's on the roster leads to turnovers being a concern. If your whole team was 6'2, you'd probably have a rebounding problem and not block a lot of shots...just a flaw in roster construction. There are big players that can handle exceptionally well (we have two) but that doesn't make them NBA level PG's.

A proven PG also would help orchestrate this mishmash of lineups better too, while we fight (admirably) to stay afloat. These hail mary wins are fun, but kind of a novelty, if we're being honest.

I'll reiterate what I say 10x daily in the trade thread...I'm buying into the unconventional starting lineup and have faith in Paolo, Franz (especially Franz) and Suggs being good enough playmakers to roll with and I do love the nightmarish POA defense...BUT, to not have one, just one, proven, competent NBA ball handler/playmaker LEADING the second unit and occasionally cleaning up the mess if opposing defenders figure out how to slow down the big guys (press?)...we're shooting ourselves in the foot. What's so scary about adding a B-level talent to our bench without disrupting our core? It doesn't have to be Fox or Trae Young turning the hierarchy and payroll upside down...just a guy that can clean things up, starting with the second unit. I'd settle for Jingles, if he was still ambulatory (Slo-Mo anybody?) not to run the show like Chris Paul but just playing smart, showing the kids how to move, where to go and where they're going to catch it if they do...Ingles last year, when he could still kind of walk, was great...he'd pull guys aside, between plays and straighten them out on what should've happened while still being their buddy.

AB might get there - maybe even soon...but he'll get there quicker if he actually has a pro to play next to and, eventually, replace. If it's a younger guy (like Sexton, just for example), who's not retiring anytime soon - good, the more, the better. I don't really think AB will ever be a pure PG -which is fine. He can be a much more valuable, versatile guy than that...In the meantime, learn to ALSO play off ball and focus on your already elite strength (defense) and get more aggressive. Nothing would build a guy's shaky confidence more than getting easier baskets and starting to feel like a scorer. You also tend to want to return the favor.

[VFX]

The answer to the OP's question is obvious for this reason. It's not a multiple choice answer.

I think everybody knows this, but they are (correctly) evaluating that we are not winning a chip this year and prioritizing development from our stars and trying to get minutes for our young guys still, to either have a cheap option moving forward to keep, or find out of they may be able to net us a really good player.

Spurs did this with Sochan at point. It wasn't pretty or successful, but if it made him even 10% more comfortable on ball, you take it. They didn't give Wemby any options last year to help him out and gave him CP3 this year. He's still taking a bunch of threes and he often talks about their development plan for him and how it's an evolving process. Raptors are doing it with Barnes and it's an ugly up and down process. These are teams that are losing doing this, and we were winning even with a lot of new responsibilities for our guys.

Franz is easily a better processor now by having all of that experience of on-ball pressure from college/rookie year until now. Paolo's first 5 games, he looked way more comfortable out there surveying the court and keeping his turnovers lower. These are not insignificant strides for our two best players.

AB is getting more minutes in general from not being blocked by anyone else.

It's not wrong to point out or THINK they shouldn't be doing any of this, that's your prerogative and your opinion, I just think it's extremely results-based before anything else.

Now, if their intention from it is because they think it's the best option, so they will NEVER get any sort of competent lead guard, even in the midst of contending, that's a bridge we'll cross when we get there. It's certainly a question because of how they've operated.

And I’m fine with it right now to be perfectly honest. I get the idea that this team isn’t competing.

I don’t want them to cut corners and bring in some 32+ year old point guard on his last true stint simply to solve a problem that isn’t directly affecting the W/L column.

That being said…

The reason this is even a question at the moment devolves back to the system they have chosen to establish. Where we probably disagree in this conversation is the degree to which having a point guard matters toward development. Developing Paolo, Franz, and Suggs within a system that is easier and not more difficult than necessary.

Spurs went out and got Wemby a point guard in year 1.5. Why is that not an option for Paolo and Franz in years 3/4? Orlando has their core unlike Toronto.

So the answer to the question is that they don’t have a point guard.

It’s not “because Paolo and Franz aren’t playing lol” OR “the Front Office knows what they are doing look at the wins this season and shut up” yknow?

[Bensational]

I don't have stats in front of me, but I don't get the feeling that the TO's are a recent development or "uptick" - attributable to our missing giant (non) PG's. I just think it's fairly obvious that having no competent proven PG's on the roster leads to turnovers being a concern.

The most recent stats were the first 5 games of the season when Paolo, Franz and Suggs were all playing - though Franz was sick for some of those games.

Magic ranked 12th in TO’s at only 14.4 per game

Over 16 games in November with Franz the Magic ranked 15th in TOs at 14.5 per game.

Over 13 games in December the Magic ranked 25th in TOS at 17 per game. Franz has missed the last 9 games, all in this month.

Those guys do a lot not just in protecting the ball when they have possession, but they open up a defense and help keep passing lanes clear just with their gravity. When things are clicking it has a compounding effect on the rest of the team, and those guys really help make things click.

Not saying we couldn’t use a better PG on the team! I’m just saying that the numbers would suggest not to overstress the TO’s because the team was much better earlier in the season.

[Idiosyncratic]

There's no way Franz reaches this upside without playing as much on ball as he has had to. And if Paolo keeps playing how he did to start this year I would say the same for him. I think they developed these guys the right way offensively.

Also I don't even think they necessarily aren't competing this year. They're 10th in net rating with the injuries, could easily be 8th if healthy (Big leap to 7th). The problem is the finals winning team almost always comes from a team top 5 in net rating (and often top 3), and the top net rating teams this year are at the top by A LOT. So I do view it as relatively unlikely, which just makes me think any trades need to be really well thought out and not the mindset of buying to push a team that's close over the top.

They compete well with the Celtics and Cavs though so who knows. Knicks also starting to look like a borderline contender I guess. If Paolo comes back and they start smoking teams they probably should be more inclined to get help. We'll see.

I guess this a combination of my ball-handling thoughts and more trade deadline thoughts. I don't know, I just don't get the feeling that they are somehow failing if they don't trade for help right now. It's OK to disagree though it would be boring if everyone had the same team-building thoughts.

[SOUL]

Spurs went out and got Wemby a point guard in year 1.5. Why is that not an option for Paolo and Franz in years 3/4? Orlando has their core unlike Toronto.

So the answer to the question is that they don’t have a point guard.

It’s not “because Paolo and Franz aren’t playing lol” OR “the Front Office knows what they are doing look at the wins this season and shut up” yknow?

I think a more apt example (since Wemby will never be a natural ball-handler full-time) was OKC getting Hartenstein this year to help Chet out by not being the only big (ignoring injuries). OKC were a better team last year than we are this year and still let Chet be the main big man they played around without giving much help yet. Paolo and Franz are very young point-forwards who can do the job decently while learning on the fly, but yeah, getting guard help of guys who can help release the pressure and responsibility of running the offense, like Jrue/White for the Jays, would obviously help a lot.

I think it certainly CAN be an option. I'm not of the opinion that it would ruin Paolo or Franz or their impact moving forward (I think there are specific guys people want to trade for that would maybe ruin them, not because of guard related ball-handling duty stuff). I just think the front office is acutely aware of all of this, as are the players, the coaches, the fans, etc.

The same patience that benefited Suggs may need to apply to this situation as well. We'll learn a lot about Black and what his role is here, and how all of these pieces fit once we're healthy again. I don't think we're keeping both first round picks next year, and Jett and GH, maybe Cole seem to be on the outs, so I can see the FO deciding to help them a bit with a move at the trade deadline.

[Skybox]

There's no way Franz reaches this upside without playing as much on ball as he has had to. And if Paolo keeps playing how he did to start this year I would say the same for him. I think they developed these guys the right way offensively.

Also I don't even think they necessarily aren't competing this year. They're 10th in net rating with the injuries, could easily be 8th if healthy (Big leap to 7th). The problem is the finals winning team almost always comes from a team top 5 in net rating (and often top 3), and the top net rating teams this year are at the top by A LOT. So I do view it as relatively unlikely, which just makes me think any trades need to be really well thought out and not the mindset of buying to push a team that's close over the top.

They compete well with the Celtics and Cavs though so who knows. Knicks also starting to look like a borderline contender I guess. If Paolo comes back and they start smoking teams they probably should be more inclined to get help. We'll see.

I guess this a combination of my ball-handling thoughts and more trade deadline thoughts. I don't know, I just don't get the feeling that they are somehow failing if they don't trade for help right now. It's OK to disagree though it would be boring if everyone had the same team-building thoughts.

They're having an amazingly successful year...especially, considering the incredible injury damage...the only thing they're "failing" to do is improve the team when they could. It's not a desperation or panic thing...it's just what FO's are supposed to do. I don't get the idea that improving the talent of a team at any level, responsibly, is ever a bad thing - unless you're tanking.

Again, that's why we go shopping at the tanking team's market...they're not afraid of a short-term setback, in fact they WANT that.

[SOUL]

I don't get the idea that improving the talent of a team at any level, responsibly, is ever a bad thing - unless you're tanking.

Again, that's why we go shopping at the tanking team's market...they're not afraid of a short-term setback, in fact they WANT that.

I don't think it's a bad thing, but I do think fans don't consider every single outcome of it - cap implications in the future, fit, whose minutes are being taken, what it means for the future of x, y, z player, culture fit. For teams with that one missing piece, there a bunch of trades you can do that are clear upgrades in terms of talent and you just hope it works out. For us, we do have clear areas of needs, but we also need to make sure it's not messing up a bunch of other important things in the process.

I do think they are deliberately being extra patient in the most important part of a rebuild-to-contention phase that requires patience. If they continue patience at a time which requires you to make moves and be active, that's when I will criticize them more. You can also tinker a bit too much like Otis and lower your ceiling dramatically for no reason, or try to rebuild and then toss it all away like Hennigan (or Skiles, whoever prompted those moves).

I do think they will make a move or two this year.

[Idiosyncratic]

There's no way Franz reaches this upside without playing as much on ball as he has had to. And if Paolo keeps playing how he did to start this year I would say the same for him. I think they developed these guys the right way offensively.

Also I don't even think they necessarily aren't competing this year. They're 10th in net rating with the injuries, could easily be 8th if healthy (Big leap to 7th). The problem is the finals winning team almost always comes from a team top 5 in net rating (and often top 3), and the top net rating teams this year are at the top by A LOT. So I do view it as relatively unlikely, which just makes me think any trades need to be really well thought out and not the mindset of buying to push a team that's close over the top.

They compete well with the Celtics and Cavs though so who knows. Knicks also starting to look like a borderline contender I guess. If Paolo comes back and they start smoking teams they probably should be more inclined to get help. We'll see.

I guess this a combination of my ball-handling thoughts and more trade deadline thoughts. I don't know, I just don't get the feeling that they are somehow failing if they don't trade for help right now. It's OK to disagree though it would be boring if everyone had the same team-building thoughts.

They're having an amazingly successful year...especially, considering the incredible injury damage...the only thing they're "failing" to do is improve the team when they could. It's not a desperation or panic thing...it's just what FO's are supposed to do. I don't get the idea that improving the talent of a team at any level, responsibly, is ever a bad thing - unless you're tanking.

Again, that's why we go shopping at the tanking team's market...they're not afraid of a short-term setback, in fact they WANT that.

I mean for the record I am in agreement in that I would add this year. They're playing well enough and have obvious needs. There have only been two? trades so far, so we'll see what happens.

I probably differ in that I value the 1sts more than many others here and I also wouldn't be upset if they don't do anything. But I understand the other side of those viewpoints. There's not always a right or wrong, there are multiple different ways to get there. The main way is to develop your stars and Paolo and Franz are a good start. We just have to wait and see, I enjoy everyone's viewpoints and the discussion though. Like I said, would be boring if we all had the same philosophy.

[RichCollab]

TOs is the biggest hurdle to winning. Keeping TOs to 12 or less is big.

Teams collapse to cut off driving lanes which also impacts passing lanes.

[VFX]

Not to be that guy, but Im bumping this thread.

Against Portland :

Paolo - 5 turnovers 6 assists
Franz - 4 turnovers 0 assists

Point guard when?

[eyriq]

AB - 1 turnover 5 assists

[The Real Dalic]

The main reason we turn it over so much is because since we're such a crap shooting team, everyone can just double or triple team our ball-handlers without fear of us scoring as well as packing the paint whenever any of our players touches the paint.

Since they refuse to hit their shots, it's incredibly easy to defend us.

[drsd]

Youth and inexperience.

[basketballRob]

The team needs to get back into playing shape again.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[VFX]

Paolo : 7 turnovers 4 assists last night against Clippers
Franz : 2 turnovers 6 assists
Joseph : 2 turnovers 3 assists starting with 30mins

Is it working yet?

[KillMonger]

we don't have a system.....our "offense" is too reliant on guys reading and reacting....that's cool if we're running the triangle....but not cool when we have guys just standing around not cutting or screening.....priority as a coaching staff is to create a system.....get a base offense, i don't care what it is....princeton, motion, 7 seconds or less.....something....get a base then build it from there to have sort of a synergy effect with your talent, it has to make sense....because what we're doing now? doesn't

[CLosP]

We don’t have any good PGs. We expect our forwards to drive through multiple defenders every possession & hope they don’t get the ball stolen so they can kick it out to an inconsistent shooter.