2025-2026 Regular Season Game 5: Orlando Magic (1-3) at Detroit Pistons (2-2) - 7pm ET

[JoshuaPotter]

Franz called out the effort multiple times…

Bold. Isn't his effort statistically not great this year as well?

[JoshuaPotter]

I have never seen Mosely this upset post game. Maybe that is for the best, maybe he is losing the locker room. He just didn't seem his normal self either.

[Bergmaniac]

Something has clearly gone wrong with our fitness preparation during training camp, our players looked slow and tired in every second half so far and not that great physically in the first halves either. In 4 of the 5 second halves so far we have had an offensive rating below 102 and we are shooting 21% from 3 in them. The players who play the most minutes have all shot dreadfully in the second half. Franz's splits between first and second half are particularly striking, in the first half he is averaging 15.8 on great efficiency (66.7 % from the field, 72% from 3), in the second he is averaging 6.8 PPG and he is shooting 36% from the field and 0% from 3. Even a proven shooter like Bane is not trusting his outside shot, forcing stuff inside too much, especially last night, and a lot of his attempts are short which is a sign of tired legs. when we get rired we revert to no ball movement and our stars taking turns trying to force the issue inside with predictable results.

[eyriq]

1. Slipping defensive discipline
2. Catastrophic free-throw shooting
3. Late-game fragility

These issues are the root cause of our rough start. All very fixable

[Idiosyncratic]

We had 7 players who finished with positive net points (pushing us above .500 as zero net points is .500). Let's group them by "Starter" vs. "Bench" (based on their primary role that season).

Starter vs. Bench: Net Points Credit
Positive-Rated Starters
Franz Wagner: +92
Wendell Carter Jr.: +32
Jalen Suggs: +18
STARTER TOTAL: +142

Positive-Rated Bench
Jonathan Isaac: +76
Moe Wagner: +65
Goga Bitadze: +35
Joe Ingles: +3
BENCH TOTAL: +179

I see where you're coming from, but I think that "bench carried us" narrative is the wrong way to look at it.

The team's total net points was +158, but it came from +291 Defense canceling out a -73 Offense. That elite defensive identity is set by the core.

Franz (+92): You're right, he's the proven two-way star (+46 Off / +46 Def).

Suggs (+18): This is a win. It confirms he's an All-Defense specialist (+36 Def) who is also a net positive. That's a perfect core piece.

Paolo (-4): This is the "cost" of a 21-yr-old All-Star carrying our entire offense (-34 Off). The real story is his +30 Defense rating. He bought in instead of coasting.

We won 47 games while our offense was awful and our #1 option was still developing. That 47-win season should be our FLOOR, not our ceiling.

The Bane trade just fixed our single biggest problem (that -73 offense). We're building on a proven foundation.

I hear you and you know I have agreed in liking and believing in our young core. All I'm saying is to this point they really haven't shown to be all that impactful to winning outside of Franz. And even Franz has shown gigantic limitations when playing in the playoffs and playing teams with good rim protection. I also think we overrate Paolo's playoffs a bit, he has a 53.7 TS% despite shooting 42% from 3, what if that was his normal 32%???

I do still believe this roster should be pretty good. I'm just saying at some point they have to show it and this isn't just a 5 game reaction, it's the entire tenure of this squad. It's still based on projection at this point. We assume the team will perform better with Paolo on the court as he improves, but we still need it to actually happen.

[eyriq]

We had 7 players who finished with positive net points (pushing us above .500 as zero net points is .500). Let's group them by "Starter" vs. "Bench" (based on their primary role that season).

Starter vs. Bench: Net Points Credit
Positive-Rated Starters
Franz Wagner: +92
Wendell Carter Jr.: +32
Jalen Suggs: +18
STARTER TOTAL: +142

Positive-Rated Bench
Jonathan Isaac: +76
Moe Wagner: +65
Goga Bitadze: +35
Joe Ingles: +3
BENCH TOTAL: +179

I see where you're coming from, but I think that "bench carried us" narrative is the wrong way to look at it.

The team's total net points was +158, but it came from +291 Defense canceling out a -73 Offense. That elite defensive identity is set by the core.

Franz (+92): You're right, he's the proven two-way star (+46 Off / +46 Def).

Suggs (+18): This is a win. It confirms he's an All-Defense specialist (+36 Def) who is also a net positive. That's a perfect core piece.

Paolo (-4): This is the "cost" of a 21-yr-old All-Star carrying our entire offense (-34 Off). The real story is his +30 Defense rating. He bought in instead of coasting.

We won 47 games while our offense was awful and our #1 option was still developing. That 47-win season should be our FLOOR, not our ceiling.

The Bane trade just fixed our single biggest problem (that -73 offense). We're building on a proven foundation.

I hear you and you know I have agreed in liking and believing in our young core. All I'm saying is to this point they really haven't shown to be all that impactful to winning outside of Franz. And even Franz has shown gigantic limitations when playing in the playoffs and playing teams with good rim protection. I also think we overrate Paolo's playoffs a bit, he has a 53.7 TS% despite shooting 42% from 3, what if that was his normal 32%???

I do still believe this roster should be pretty good. I'm just saying at some point they have to show it and this isn't just a 5 game reaction, it's the entire tenure of this squad. It's still based on projection at this point. We assume the team will perform better with Paolo on the court as he improves, but we still need it to actually happen.

This rough start is almost 100% execution related issues, not talent. Improve at the line -> restore defensive identity -> execute in the 4th quarter.

[zaymon]

We had 7 players who finished with positive net points (pushing us above .500 as zero net points is .500). Let's group them by "Starter" vs. "Bench" (based on their primary role that season).

Starter vs. Bench: Net Points Credit
Positive-Rated Starters
Franz Wagner: +92
Wendell Carter Jr.: +32
Jalen Suggs: +18
STARTER TOTAL: +142

Positive-Rated Bench
Jonathan Isaac: +76
Moe Wagner: +65
Goga Bitadze: +35
Joe Ingles: +3
BENCH TOTAL: +179

I see where you're coming from, but I think that "bench carried us" narrative is the wrong way to look at it.

The team's total net points was +158, but it came from +291 Defense canceling out a -73 Offense. That elite defensive identity is set by the core.

Franz (+92): You're right, he's the proven two-way star (+46 Off / +46 Def).

Suggs (+18): This is a win. It confirms he's an All-Defense specialist (+36 Def) who is also a net positive. That's a perfect core piece.

Paolo (-4): This is the "cost" of a 21-yr-old All-Star carrying our entire offense (-34 Off). The real story is his +30 Defense rating. He bought in instead of coasting.

We won 47 games while our offense was awful and our #1 option was still developing. That 47-win season should be our FLOOR, not our ceiling.

The Bane trade just fixed our single biggest problem (that -73 offense). We're building on a proven foundation.

I hear you and you know I have agreed in liking and believing in our young core. All I'm saying is to this point they really haven't shown to be all that impactful to winning outside of Franz. And even Franz has shown gigantic limitations when playing in the playoffs and playing teams with good rim protection. I also think we overrate Paolo's playoffs a bit, he has a 53.7 TS% despite shooting 42% from 3, what if that was his normal 32%???

I do still believe this roster should be pretty good. I'm just saying at some point they have to show it and this isn't just a 5 game reaction, it's the entire tenure of this squad. It's still based on projection at this point. We assume the team will perform better with Paolo on the court as he improves, but we still need it to actually happen.

This rough start is almost 100% execution related issues, not talent. Improve at the line -> restore defensive identity -> execute in the 4th quarter.

Why do you think its execution not talent related ? Our offense with Banchero was never good. He was never efficient. Players have worst seasons of their lives playing next to him. WCJ is fragile as egg. He was never good rim protector. He relied on our great perimeter defense- KCP, Harris, Suggs. Now most of them are gone and we can see his ability with average not elite perimeter defenders.

Franz is the most talented player and he still performs up to his talent. Suggs i would say plays above his offensive talent.

What is your argument its not talent related ?

[Idiosyncratic]

This rough start is almost 100% execution related issues, not talent. Improve at the line -> restore defensive identity -> execute in the 4th quarter.

We will get to the point where we can beat up on the teams we should beat, I do believe that. But I still wonder if we have the talent to be elite.

There definitely should be some way to get this roster functioning at a decent level. We need to get there first and then hopefully we don't realize we are hard capped by having limited offensive creation. But for now they gotta figure out something that works.

[eyriq]

I hear you and you know I have agreed in liking and believing in our young core. All I'm saying is to this point they really haven't shown to be all that impactful to winning outside of Franz. And even Franz has shown gigantic limitations when playing in the playoffs and playing teams with good rim protection. I also think we overrate Paolo's playoffs a bit, he has a 53.7 TS% despite shooting 42% from 3, what if that was his normal 32%???

I do still believe this roster should be pretty good. I'm just saying at some point they have to show it and this isn't just a 5 game reaction, it's the entire tenure of this squad. It's still based on projection at this point. We assume the team will perform better with Paolo on the court as he improves, but we still need it to actually happen.

This rough start is almost 100% execution related issues, not talent. Improve at the line -> restore defensive identity -> execute in the 4th quarter.

Why do you think its execution not talent related ? Our offense with Banchero was never good. He was never efficient. Players have worst seasons of their lives playing next to him. WCJ is fragile as egg. He was never good rim protector. He relied on our great perimeter defense- KCP, Harris, Suggs. Now most of them are gone and we can see his ability with average not elite perimeter defenders.

Franz is the most talented player and he still performs up to his talent. Suggs i would say plays above his offensive talent.

What is your argument its not talent related ?

Efficiency/age/usage are all correlated. Young players are less efficient and there is a trade off between usage and efficiency. Paolo is a young first option. You can work through the implications of this on his efficiency. First option two-way talent is extremely rare and Paolo is underappreciated for his contributions to offense (because of efficiency) and defense (because of bias). There is a reason why when the games matter most he's one of the few that continues to shine—he's a budding two-way superstar. He's quickly catching up with Franz on impact stats and improving at a faster rate given his better foundational athleticism, size, and skill.

Franz has both the eye test and impact stats on his side. He's a star.

Suggs is injury prone and limited offensively but an impact player on defense. Bane removes our reliance on Suggs offense. He's the most obvious retool candidate.

Bane is a proven third option, I've no concerns about his talent.

Everyone else is a role player.

[Bergmaniac]

I've been saying for a long time that the success in 2023/24 was largely due to the bench killing it, particularly Isaac, who was an impact monster and was keeping lineups which had no business being even half-decent defensively excellent on that end (Isaac-Moe-Ingles playing together had a 104.3 DRTG, for example, which is just incredible, especially considering Ingles' legs were almost completely gone for a large portion of the season). Sadly that version of Isaac seems to be gone for good. Ingles and Moe's offense are badly missed too. This is why I objected to the talk of the "all-time great young core". The very best young cores of all time didn't need vets to do so much of the heavy lifting for them.

Sure, we can improve execution, and hopefully the players will gradually get in better shape physically, but to be an actual contender to reach the Conference finals or even better we need Paolo and Franz to play like Top 15-20 players in the league which seems like a pretty long shot currently.

[SloNick Russia]

No matter how you put it it comes down to Mosley and his staff. The core is here under contract for few next years. If Mosley can't gey them playing up to the level he has to go. If the roster now can't defend at our usual level we need a coach who will raise the offense to the level to compensate defensive slide.

Sent from my SM-S928B using RealGM mobile app

[doct3r dr3]

Analyzing the Magic's woes through the first five games (per 100 possessions data):

PACE 103.9 (9th)

ORTG 109.4 (27th)

eFG% 51.9 (24th)
3P% 31.2 (28th)
FT% 73.2 (25th)
AST% 53.6 (27th)
TOV% 16.7 (24th)
AST/TO 1.21 (30th)
PTS OFF TO 14.0 (28th)

DRTG 118.3 (23rd)

STL 6.1 (28th)
OPP FTA Rate 0.334 (25th)
OPP PTS OFF TO 20.7 (23rd)
OPP FBP 19.2 (27th)
OPP PITP 55.3 (26th)

The only things we've been good at, from a statistical perspective, are FTA rate (0.436, 1st), 2nd chance points (21.5, 2nd) and points in the paint (53.0, 6th).

It's really amazing. Bottom 10 defense, bottom 5 offense. The guards and wings are missing FTs, missing 3s, turning the ball over, failing to get assists, failing to get steals, and the bigs are failing to protect the paint or defend without fouling. Everyone's getting crushed in transition. What do you even do with that?

[eyriq]

Analyzing the Magic's woes through the first five games (per 100 possessions data):

PACE 103.9 (9th)

ORTG 109.4 (27th)

eFG% 51.9 (24th)
3P% 31.2 (28th)
FT% 73.2 (25th)
AST% 53.6 (27th)
TOV% 16.7 (24th)
AST/TO 1.21 (30th)
PTS OFF TO 14.0 (28th)

DRTG 118.3 (23rd)

STL 6.1 (28th)
OPP FTA Rate 0.334 (25th)
OPP PTS OFF TO 20.7 (23rd)
OPP FBP 19.2 (27th)
OPP PITP 55.3 (26th)

The only things we've been good at, from a statistical perspective, are FTA rate (0.436, 1st), 2nd chance points (21.5, 2nd) and points in the paint (53.0, 6th).

It's really amazing. Bottom 10 defense, bottom 5 offense. The guards and wings are missing FTs, missing 3s, turning the ball over, failing to get assists, failing to get steals, and the bigs are failing to protect the paint or defend without fouling. Everyone's getting crushed in transition. What do you even do with that?

Yikes. There's something to be said about a decision-making process that looks at our per possession offense over the last few years and determines that "yeah we need more possessions per game".

[Optimus_Steel]

I have never seen Mosely this upset post game. Maybe that is for the best, maybe he is losing the locker room. He just didn't seem his normal self either.

Sometimes you need a guy to lit a fuse on players but Mosely doesn't seem to be that that guy, its not his style. He is also not getting a proven veteran like Bane good looks for him, that's on him.

I keep going back to the Jalen in that first quarter trying to put a bizarre fancy dribbling show. It just shows me these guys are not mentally ready to fight. They are not ready to put the dirty work in.

[Optimus_Steel]

Analyzing the Magic's woes through the first five games (per 100 possessions data):

PACE 103.9 (9th)

ORTG 109.4 (27th)

eFG% 51.9 (24th)
3P% 31.2 (28th)
FT% 73.2 (25th)
AST% 53.6 (27th)
TOV% 16.7 (24th)
AST/TO 1.21 (30th)
PTS OFF TO 14.0 (28th)

DRTG 118.3 (23rd)

STL 6.1 (28th)
OPP FTA Rate 0.334 (25th)
OPP PTS OFF TO 20.7 (23rd)
OPP FBP 19.2 (27th)
OPP PITP 55.3 (26th)

The only things we've been good at, from a statistical perspective, are FTA rate (0.436, 1st), 2nd chance points (21.5, 2nd) and points in the paint (53.0, 6th).

It's really amazing. Bottom 10 defense, bottom 5 offense. The guards and wings are missing FTs, missing 3s, turning the ball over, failing to get assists, failing to get steals, and the bigs are failing to protect the paint or defend without fouling. Everyone's getting crushed in transition. What do you even do with that?

For one thing, I do think these guys are soft mentally. A couple of calls don't go their way and they just put their heads down and go thru the motions. If terms of fouls, if they keep calling you for fouls then put your big boy pants on and keep fouling. Yes keep fouling, like Pat Riley said years ago, start fouling every possession that the refs will eventually stop calling it. We just pout and get passive.

On offense, how hard is to get your top 3 scorers into spots that they are good at?

[zaymon]

This rough start is almost 100% execution related issues, not talent. Improve at the line -> restore defensive identity -> execute in the 4th quarter.

Why do you think its execution not talent related ? Our offense with Banchero was never good. He was never efficient. Players have worst seasons of their lives playing next to him. WCJ is fragile as egg. He was never good rim protector. He relied on our great perimeter defense- KCP, Harris, Suggs. Now most of them are gone and we can see his ability with average not elite perimeter defenders.

Franz is the most talented player and he still performs up to his talent. Suggs i would say plays above his offensive talent.

What is your argument its not talent related ?

Efficiency/age/usage are all correlated. Young players are less efficient and there is a trade off between usage and efficiency. Paolo is a young first option. You can work through the implications of this on his efficiency. First option two-way talent is extremely rare and Paolo is underappreciated for his contributions to offense (because of efficiency) and defense (because of bias). There is a reason why when the games matter most he's one of the few that continues to shine—he's a budding two-way superstar. He's quickly catching up with Franz on impact stats and improving at a faster rate given his better foundational athleticism, size, and skill.

Franz has both the eye test and impact stats on his side. He's a star.

Suggs is injury prone and limited offensively but an impact player on defense. Bane removes our reliance on Suggs offense. He's the most obvious retool candidate.

Bane is a proven third option, I've no concerns about his talent.

Everyone else is a role player.

So basically lets disregard stats, eye test and results becouse we dont want to admit Paolo shouldnt run offense ? What gives you so much confidence in him ? Even in playoffs he had his inefficient stats while our offense was awful and we hang just becouse of our maniacal defense. What separetates him from players like Lavine, Derozan, Beal, Randle ? Its not his defense.
Can i be wrong ? Sure. Maybe its coach, but its definetly not a problem we have for 5 games. Its a problem Paolo had for 3+ years.

[Last Guardian]

I think people who mentioned player issues are on to something. Anthony Black made a near full court shot in previous game and there was barely a celebration

[Furinkazan]

[Furinkazan]

So Cole Anthony was a secret ingridient