ImageImageImageImage

295 (RealGM Article - TheGlyde)

Moderators: Def Swami, Howard Mass, ChosenSavior, UCF, Knightro, UCFJayBird

User avatar
TheGlyde
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,806
And1: 559
Joined: Mar 01, 2005
Location: Retire #25!
 

 

Post#21 » by TheGlyde » Tue Feb 5, 2008 12:22 am

Ugh, I can't believe this is even an argument Robbo.

- I have not said Shaq was the only franshise guy because he was the center, Penny was in no way shape or form better than Shaq in their first 4 years. I can't believe someone is even arguing this, it wasn;t the charisma, it wasn't the position, Shaq was head and shoulders above Penny until 1995-96.

- All-NBA teams are also voted on by sportswriters, not coaches.

- Cousy had less assists because I have read originally assists were not recorded if you dribbled the ball, ie Cousy dribbles on the break, passes the ball, layup, no assist. They were originally only given out if you caught it, passed it and it led to a bucket, I will dig out the quote and book title later at home.

- Magic and Oscar theres no contest, Cousy I put ahead for winning and being the most dominant in his time, West smilarly, Stockton I put ahead because neither won but you can't ignore the stats he accumulated, Thomas is ahead for similar or better stats, playoff clutch and winning titles, Nash probably goes ahead if not now then by the end of his career, Kidd vs Payton I could argue either way. Top ten as I said, but not top 5.
Orlando Magic Historian

Magic Player History on Instagram

Also on Twitter & Youtube
User avatar
KingRobb02
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,464
And1: 917
Joined: Aug 07, 2007
         

 

Post#22 » by KingRobb02 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 12:42 am

TheGlyde wrote:Ugh, I can't believe this is even an argument Robbo.

- I have not said Shaq was the only franshise guy because he was the center, Penny was in no way shape or form better than Shaq in their first 4 years. I can't believe someone is even arguing this, it wasn;t the charisma, it wasn't the position, Shaq was head and shoulders above Penny until 1995-96.

- All-NBA teams are also voted on by sportswriters, not coaches.

- Cousy had less assists because I have read originally assists were not recorded if you dribbled the ball, ie Cousy dribbles on the break, passes the ball, layup, no assist. They were originally only given out if you caught it, passed it and it led to a bucket, I will dig out the quote and book title later at home.

- Magic and Oscar theres no contest, Cousy I put ahead for winning and being the most dominant in his time, West smilarly, Stockton I put ahead because neither won but you can't ignore the stats he accumulated, Thomas is ahead for similar or better stats, playoff clutch and winning titles, Nash probably goes ahead if not now then by the end of his career, Kidd vs Payton I could argue either way. Top ten as I said, but not top 5.


I'm willing to debate this, the problem is that you keep saying that Shaq was clearly better with really explaining why you felt that way. Did he win more? No. Was he considered the best at his position? No. Had he shown that he could win without his counterpart? No. Was he ever an All NBA talent? No.

You're right about the All NBA voting, but that still doesn't make the opinions of writers relevant in deciding who the best player was.

We can argue all day about how many dimes Cousy woul;d have had if the stats were kept the same way, but there is no disputing the fact that Payton was better than him as a shooter and a defender. He never won a title without Russell, and he never had to compete with Jordan and the 1996 Bulls, so I think we can throw the winner thing out too. payton was better, no matter what Bob Ryan tries to tell everyone. I'm still calling West a shooting guard, he even spent some time at forward, and there is no way Nash is better than the Glove. Payton would have destroyed him on both ends of the court. Throw out the MVP voting for the same reasons as above and we aren't even having this conversation. If you want to switch Stockton and Payton at 4 and 5 fine, but he is still top 5.
User avatar
TheGlyde
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 12,806
And1: 559
Joined: Mar 01, 2005
Location: Retire #25!
 

 

Post#23 » by TheGlyde » Tue Feb 5, 2008 1:57 am

Shaquille O'Neal vs Anfernee Hardaway

Shaq: Rookie of the year (98% of vote)
Penny: 2nd (47% of vote)

Statistical Top 5 league placings (averages per game):
Shaq: FG Percentage (four times, one title), Points (three times, one title), Rebounds (three times), Blocks (once)
Penny: None, in anything.

Basketball Reference win shares in their 2 healthy seasons together:
Shaq: 91
Penny: 52

PER:
Shaq: 2nd twice, 3rd once, 7th once
Penny: 9th once

MVP Voting:
Shaq: 4 years in top ten (one 2nd place, one 4th place, one 7th place, one 9th place)
Penny: 2 years in top ten (one 3rd place, one 10th place) two years no votes.

All-NBA Teams:
Been over it, Shaq had more competition from better players in their prime and only one spot for centers.

Cousy vs Payton

NBA Titles:
Cousy: six
Payton: zero

MVP Awards:
Cousy: One MVP.
- was also 3rd, 4th (twice), 6th, 8th (twice) and was All-NBA 1st team 4 times in the 4 years before the MVP award was first given out.

Payton: no MVP
- was 3rd once and 6th five times.

All-NBA 1st team:
Cousy: 10 times
Payton: 2 times

Assists Titles:
Cousy: eight consecutive titles
Payton: no titles

PER:
Cousy: 6th twice, 8th twice, 9th once, 10th once
Payton: 8th once, 9th three times, 10th once

Payton won defensive player of the year award and was All defensive team 9 times, these awards never existed when Cousy played.
Orlando Magic Historian

Magic Player History on Instagram

Also on Twitter & Youtube
N4U|Redux
RealGM
Posts: 10,766
And1: 14
Joined: Jan 05, 2004

 

Post#24 » by N4U|Redux » Tue Feb 5, 2008 2:28 am

It's stupid to compare guys like Payton vs Cousy, Shaq vs Wilt, and so forth.

The game is so digustingly different (not necessarily for the bad) that it's insanely difficult to compare the eras.

People who like the old school and advocate the fact of better fundamentals, smaller leagues, etc try to pursuade that the "old days" were the best. People of today like to advocate that we're just as skilled, have a significantly greater sized talent pool (i.e. greater competition) and we're vastly more athletic nowadays.

I could imagine Payton dominating the old days just as much as anyone of the era did then, I could also imagine Cousy spinning webs around the low IQ pg's of today. At the same time i could picture Cousy getting the ball stolen from vastly faster, more agile players (like Glove) and Payton's distribution ability of today being significantly weaker in the "higher-IQ" times of yore.

Don't compare era's it's just stupid. I have no objections to the same era being compared within it's own set though.
"If I help get South Florida into the tournament, then 20 years from now when South Florida is ranked No. 1 in the country, people will look at the history and say, 'Dominique Jones started that program.'"
craig01
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,958
And1: 483
Joined: Dec 24, 2005
Location: orlando

 

Post#25 » by craig01 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:08 am

KingRobb02 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



How well did they perform without him? Shaq's all-NBA point guard led teh team to the playoffs the next year and proceeded to average 40. There is no doubt that Shaq had a superb supporting cast.


The team fell to 45-37. Grant, Anderson, Scott, and Penny were all less productive players. Grant was aging, Anderson and Scott soon became journeymen while still in their physical prime, and Hardaway put up non all star like numbers.

Penny had back to back 40 pt games against the Heat, but did not average 40.

Penny was never as productive once Shaq left. Penny was great while Shaq was there. I think I can trace back to the reason why......Shaq.
Basketball is driven by three principles:

1) Movement 2) Application of fundamentals 3) Predictability
N4U|Redux
RealGM
Posts: 10,766
And1: 14
Joined: Jan 05, 2004

 

Post#26 » by N4U|Redux » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:09 am

Do people ever tire of the downfall of penny debate?

I think it was injuries and a tmac like mental toughness. Shaq leaving had little to do with Penny falling off.
"If I help get South Florida into the tournament, then 20 years from now when South Florida is ranked No. 1 in the country, people will look at the history and say, 'Dominique Jones started that program.'"
craig01
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,958
And1: 483
Joined: Dec 24, 2005
Location: orlando

 

Post#27 » by craig01 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:16 am

n0tforyou wrote:Do people ever tire of the downfall of penny debate?

I think it was injuries and a tmac like mental toughness. Shaq leaving had little to do with Penny falling off.


Shaq had much to do with Penny falling off. Hardaway looked like he could carry a team, and did so in short stretches, but could not physically nor mentally over the course of a season.

Shaq did. The fact that he carried the team allowed the others to flourish.

That's what franchise HOF'ers do for teammates.
Basketball is driven by three principles:

1) Movement 2) Application of fundamentals 3) Predictability
User avatar
KingRobb02
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,464
And1: 917
Joined: Aug 07, 2007
         

 

Post#28 » by KingRobb02 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:19 am

TheGlyde wrote:Shaquille O'Neal vs Anfernee Hardaway

Shaq: Rookie of the year (98% of vote)
Penny: 2nd (47% of vote)

Statistical Top 5 league placings (averages per game):
Shaq: FG Percentage (four times, one title), Points (three times, one title), Rebounds (three times), Blocks (once)
Penny: None, in anything.

Basketball Reference win shares in their 2 healthy seasons together:
Shaq: 91
Penny: 52

PER:
Shaq: 2nd twice, 3rd once, 7th once
Penny: 9th once

MVP Voting:
Shaq: 4 years in top ten (one 2nd place, one 4th place, one 7th place, one 9th place)
Penny: 2 years in top ten (one 3rd place, one 10th place) two years no votes.

All-NBA Teams:
Been over it, Shaq had more competition from better players in their prime and only one spot for centers.

Cousy vs Payton

NBA Titles:
Cousy: six
Payton: zero

MVP Awards:
Cousy: One MVP.
- was also 3rd, 4th (twice), 6th, 8th (twice) and was All-NBA 1st team 4 times in the 4 years before the MVP award was first given out.

Payton: no MVP
- was 3rd once and 6th five times.

All-NBA 1st team:
Cousy: 10 times
Payton: 2 times

Assists Titles:
Cousy: eight consecutive titles
Payton: no titles

PER:
Cousy: 6th twice, 8th twice, 9th once, 10th once
Payton: 8th once, 9th three times, 10th once

Payton won defensive player of the year award and was All defensive team 9 times, these awards never existed when Cousy played.


The problem will all the awards and stats, is that it is totally dependent on the competition of the time. Start with Rookie of the year. I think that 1993 was a much stronger year than 1994. Penny, Webber, Mash, Rider, Baker, Houston, Pretty Sam, Van Exel, Bryon Russell, Bowen, even Bo Outlaw. Who was supposed to be better than Shaq in 1992? Zo and Laettner were his only real comp. Spree, Googs, JJ, Ellis, Horry, and PJ Brown all belog a notch below. You can't use this for comparison, just like you can't say that Mike Miller is better than Dwyane Wade.

Also stats like PER and win share take pace and other people who play your position into account. This is why Andrew Bynum's PER is higher than DWyane Wade and Allen Iverson. So, I don't like that argument either.

Win shares and leading the league isn't really my cup of tea either. isiah thomas is the best pure point ever, and only once did he lead the league in assists and he didn't lead his teram in scoring during the good years, but there wasn never a doubt that he was the man on those teams, right?

As for comparing Payton to Cousy, what do you think Cousy was better at? Don't say winning because if you believe that is the criteria then, Ron Harper is one of the best point guards ever as well. Cousy played in an era when teams just ran and took bad shots (low bball IQ?). Look at the pace factor and rebounding numbers from the 60s. It didn't take much to be a great point guard on a team with 6 hall of famers and not much competition. I would like to see him either win without Russell before i call hime one of the best ever. Think about it, they won 11 and he was only around for 6 of them. It doesn't sound to me like he was all that vital.
User avatar
KingRobb02
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,464
And1: 917
Joined: Aug 07, 2007
         

 

Post#29 » by KingRobb02 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:23 am

craig01 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



The team fell to 45-37. Grant, Anderson, Scott, and Penny were all less productive players. Grant was aging, Anderson and Scott soon became journeymen while still in their physical prime, and Hardaway put up non all star like numbers.

Penny had back to back 40 pt games against the Heat, but did not average 40.

Penny was never as productive once Shaq left. Penny was great while Shaq was there. I think I can trace back to the reason why......Shaq.


According to you, he played with an aging all-star and 2 journeymen as his best help and you call this an indictment. Penny showed that he could carry this team. When is the last time we won 45 games? McGrady was less productive without Darrell Armstrong, but I don't confuse taht with Armstrong making McGrady better.
craig01
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,958
And1: 483
Joined: Dec 24, 2005
Location: orlando

 

Post#30 » by craig01 » Tue Feb 5, 2008 3:34 am

Not an indictment, just an opinion that Hardaway was not more significant than Shaq was at any time in his career.

Hardaway lacked a consistent jump shot to be a franchise guard.

His scoring declined when Shaq left because his driving lanes were not so available and he knew his jumper was mediocre. His assists went down because his teammates were no longer wide open.

Anyway, sorry for taking this so far off topic........
Basketball is driven by three principles:

1) Movement 2) Application of fundamentals 3) Predictability
User avatar
mhectorgato
RealGM
Posts: 29,446
And1: 574
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
Location: Finals Baby!
 

 

Post#31 » by mhectorgato » Tue Feb 5, 2008 4:56 pm

Nice job Theg :clap:

You do the Stat-o-matics proud.

Image
NEM wrote: However, I'm a fan of my team winning so, keep the winning coming. All the "tank" fans can take their crap to another board. We are here to win.
Dome
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 7,919
And1: 20
Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Location: The Netherlands
 

 

Post#32 » by Dome » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:50 am

I didn't see this until now. Nice read Jay, I agree with mostly everything! :bowdown:
User avatar
Howard Mass
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 66,334
And1: 16,277
Joined: Feb 20, 2001
Location: Longwood, Florida
Contact:
       

 

Post#33 » by Howard Mass » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:33 am

Another outstanding article by Jay Stone.

This one really opened up some eyes.
R.I.P. Dharam Raghubir (A.K.A. Magnumt)

:beer:

Return to Orlando Magic