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So, through this series I realized...

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Post#81 » by magicfanejc42 » Wed May 7, 2008 4:28 am

magicfanejc42 wrote:You guys, this trade thread to me has NOTHING to do with Hedo's performance this offseason, I know he is a good player, and I don't want to trade him, but this team NEEDS a good defensive player alongside Dwight, Hedo is at his all time trade value and we need to do something about it...This team is in need of another defensive presence along with Dwight, also another true rebounder... I'm just looking back on the Philly series and they may not be a great team, but they are built well, they have a vert athletic and defensive minded team, but no scorers, and did well against Detroit. If the Magic had another Defensive presence, Billups and Rip gettting into the paint would be an afterthought, and all Detroit could beat us with is jmpers, and if out team is built to beat Detroit it is built to beat anyone...

People who think I am starting this thread because I am a Hedo hater are wrong, I was one of the ONLY fans who didn't want Hedo traded last year even though he was horrid.. But it is time, to get bang for our buck..This organization never jumps on their talent, and makes improvements through it... Hedo will be a good player here or somewhere else, but we NEED a trie PF and a good slashing/driving guard... Josh Smith, or even Emeka Okafor are the answers in a trade, and Maggette is the answer with the MLE, then we will actually have a starting 5 in their true positions, and be a strong team, who would instantly be competing for a ring...

Just my 2 cents, and I know many of you won't agree or feel I'm " in twilight zone" but that's fine..Everyone has a right their opinion..


You guys, I know Hedo has been our playmaker...But have ANY of you watched Jameer on his passing? He is MORE than capable, and the addition of Smith and Maggette }(in my OP) would be a HUGE upgrade, and I understand we are all homers to some extent...But WTF....

Nelson = Nelson
Maggette > Evans
Lewis = Lewis
J. Smith >> Hedo (At PF anyway)
Howard = Howard

There is NO decline, and we ONLY lose Hedo... I mean honestly?

Oh yeah, and you guys talk about how great Hedo is, Josh Smith is 22, Dwight's childhood friend and his averages have only gone up in his years in the league.. this year's 17ppg 8 rpg 2.8 blks 3 asts 1.5 stls...The man is a defensive wizard, has an ever improving offensive game, and has YEARS ahead of him....Hedo is where he will stay, his number will NOT improve next year and to be honest, I don't think Hedo and Lewis spliiting time at the PF position are helping them in the playoffs..IMO they both look tired, like their legs have been taken away from them... I don't get it. But what I do get is, Hedo is at his all time high in value and something needs to be done..If not, everyone here will be disappointed again next year when we are in this same predicament, getting beat down by the old, run down Pistons. Who actually have PF's and C's who fit thier positions...
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Post#82 » by lovehoops01 » Wed May 7, 2008 5:31 am

ivDT wrote:if hedo is traded, which i suspect he will be, it won't be because management thinks he's useless or playing poorly.

in fact, it would be the contrary.


So, you're saying they're going to trade him because he's too good for the Magic roster?
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Post#83 » by lovehoops01 » Wed May 7, 2008 5:54 am

The thing with Hedo.....He does a lot of little things that if you trade him, now no one is doing. Yes, he had made some mistakes in the playoffs (as he has all season really, but they are just more noticeable now). Just who do you anticipate bringing in who is going to do the things he does?

Maggette? Is a poor 3-point shooter. Is a worse free-throw shooter than Hedo. Can't pass. In fact. he really has no intention of doing so. If he gets the ball, he is shooting or going to the basket. Good for getting to the free-throw line but bad for ball movement. And you're not getting a draft pick to go along with Maggette in that deal. Corey already makes more than Hedo.

Josh Smith. Maybe. But he has given every indication that he would like to stay in Atlanta. And do you really see Atlanta trading him to the Magic -- and do you want to play against Hedo in the Southeast all the time even if they would? That's not really too realistic. And would still need to find a backup small forward and a real shooting guard.

I think you're really going to have to search hard for someone who would be able to do as many things for the Magic as Hedo can. And if you can't, then you are going to be going without a lot of things getting done.

The problem with these playoffs is Turk is going through a bad stretch -- likely he is worn out. And he's being guarded by one of the best defensive players in the league (Prince). And unfortunately, on the Magic roster, there are people who can help out with the scoring, but not really with a lot else of what he does. And there is no one on the bench can do so. And the Magic need four of their five starters to be scoring. Mo had a pretty good night for him with 13 points the other night. And it still wasn't enough. The Magic need more than one player on their bench who is capable for averaging about 15 points. And you take Hedo away from Rashard or Rashard away from Hedo, and I don't think either is as effective.

I realize that you guys are worried about the luxury tax. But do you realistically think the Magic are going to be able to sustain a winning team with Dwight, Jameer and Rashard and a couple guys making $3 million, and the other half of the roster at a million or less. That's what I'm hearing, and it's not very realistic.
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Post#84 » by richboy » Wed May 7, 2008 6:16 am

ORL wrote:Everybody can be moved. Szczerbiak, Lafreantz, Hughes, bad contracts get moved all the time.


Those players contracts are not close to Rashard. Whoever trades for Rashard is trading for somone making over 20 million per season the final 3 years of his deal. Unless the Knicks come to the rescue there almost no team in the league could do that for 18 ppg. Now perhaps if there was some really bad contracts coming back they would take Rashard. Outside of that I be surprised if Rashard is not in a Magic uniform till his contract becomes expiring.
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Post#85 » by richboy » Wed May 7, 2008 6:25 am

spinedoc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



...and conversely he has to guard them at the other end. Did you not see Maxiel out muscle him, or that lob pass over him to Rasheed? It wasn't pretty.


So. Watching Rashard defend the perimeter is painful. Him trying to play position defense against PF is a lot easier than when he was trying to run around and cover top SF.

There are rules about trading players with options. I don't see that trade happening anyway. Hedo and Maggette have about equal value. There is no reason for the clips to trade the 6th pick of the draft for a low first round pick and JJ. JJ has no more than second round value at this point.
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Post#86 » by JazzItUp13 » Wed May 7, 2008 4:49 pm

the magic need ron artest! ;)
I got a question why they hating on me....
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Post#87 » by ivDT » Wed May 7, 2008 5:12 pm

lovehoops01 wrote:So, you're saying they're going to trade him because he's too good for the Magic roster?


that's a pretty odd parsing, but you're actually not that far off.

basically, the point i was trying to make was that the likelihood of hedo staying here will decrease as his trade value increases.

i just can't see us paying him what he's worth when we've sunk so much money into rashard's contract and have so many other issues that need to be addressed.

to me, this whole debate over keeping hedo boils down to:

"how much more money are we going to spend on one position when we have so many other holes that need to be plugged?"

everyone seems to agree that we need a deeper bench, that we need to improve our backcourt--depending on who you ask, this team may need both a new starting PG and and a new starting 2G--and that we need a capable PF.

yet, despite all of that, there are still people here who think we can address all of these problems and retain a player who is on the cusp of being one of the league's few 20/5/5 talents.

how is that possible?

to believe something like that, one would have to have a tremendous amount of faith in management's ability to get things done with just mid- to late first rounders, second round picks, the MLE and our lesser assets.

really, that sort of thing is only going to happen in a perfect world.

and as someone who is resigned to the fact that we can't just keep hedo and trade rashard instead, it is pretty clear to me that this isn't a perfect world.
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Post#88 » by spinedoc » Wed May 7, 2008 5:44 pm

richboy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



So. Watching Rashard defend the perimeter is painful. Him trying to play position defense against PF is a lot easier than when he was trying to run around and cover top SF.

There are rules about trading players with options. I don't see that trade happening anyway. Hedo and Maggette have about equal value. There is no reason for the clips to trade the 6th pick of the draft for a low first round pick and JJ. JJ has no more than second round value at this point.


Oh really, all that talk about how versatile Hedo is yada yada, and now he is an equal player to Maggette? The Clips couldn't get a tarnished Artest for him, you know the guy we wouldn't trade Hedo for when the Kings came calling? I concede that Hedo has more value than Mags, much more actually, thats why I have them including their pick. They also get a previous lottery pick from us at the same time, filling two positions for them at the 2 and 3. Do they want to continually try and build on high lottery picks over there? Well, it is the Clippers so that very well may be true. But, what about the rumors of Brand and Maggette not being able to coexist awhile back? Will they just resign him anyway? What about Brand then, which one is a priority for them? Will they let Mags get his nose bent out of shape and let him walk for nothing? And, what is the value for Maggette now exactly after those injuries? It might not be as high as we all think. He even may be available for the mle and all this is a moot point, although thats not likely. Your value system is off Richboy. You compare Rashard to the likes of Kapono, Hughes, and Ben Wallace, and now you say that Hedo and Maggette are about equal, so your ability to shoot down my trade proposal is very suspect.
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Post#89 » by richboy » Wed May 7, 2008 9:04 pm

spinedoc wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Oh really, all that talk about how versatile Hedo is yada yada, and now he is an equal player to Maggette? The Clips couldn't get a tarnished Artest for him, you know the guy we wouldn't trade Hedo for when the Kings came calling? I concede that Hedo has more value than Mags, much more actually, thats why I have them including their pick. They also get a previous lottery pick from us at the same time, filling two positions for them at the 2 and 3. Do they want to continually try and build on high lottery picks over there? Well, it is the Clippers so that very well may be true. But, what about the rumors of Brand and Maggette not being able to coexist awhile back? Will they just resign him anyway? What about Brand then, which one is a priority for them? Will they let Mags get his nose bent out of shape and let him walk for nothing? And, what is the value for Maggette now exactly after those injuries? It might not be as high as we all think. He even may be available for the mle and all this is a moot point, although thats not likely. Your value system is off Richboy. You compare Rashard to the likes of Kapono, Hughes, and Ben Wallace, and now you say that Hedo and Maggette are about equal, so your ability to shoot down my trade proposal is very suspect.


One your going on about things that we don't even know and don't even care about. What does the fact that the Kings wouldn't trade Artest for Maggette have to do with Hedo. Artest is coming off perhaps his best season and averaged over 20 per game. I'm not sure I would trade Artest for Maggette either. Hedo is still probably third best of the 3.

Hedo is extremely versatile. Yada Yada Yada. What does that have to do with value from one team to another. Corey Maggette is the Clippers leading scorer of last year. He averaged 22 per night. He goes to the free throw line about 10 times a contest. He has been a better player than Hedo for longer. Please don't start with your homeristic viewpoints that somehow came to the conclusion that somehow the Clippers perceive a actually more productive Maggette value as so much less than Hedo's that there willing to give up the 6 pick to get him.

The Clippers are not going to be caring what JJ Redick was drafted at. Where not talking about what the Magic's value and investment in Redick but what they think of him. Right now JJ Redick can't play on a team with Evans and Bogans at SG. He wouldn't come close to getting in the lottery now. There no way that Redick and a low first is going to get you up to the 6 pick in the draft. What the Clippers want to do has little to do with the Magic. Whatever happens there going to want equal value. Not just give it up because they don't want a young player.

My ability to shoot down your trade proposals is suspect after last year jokes of proposals you were making? Should have seen your post coming a mile away. Instead of actually thinking that perhaps I have some points you once again just toss it out as like you said a year ago. Me just being difficult right. Like I said you make these proposals like teams are out trying to help the Magic.

They can't trade Maggette if he opts out. Its a little too late for them to be worried about loosing him for nothing. If they want to do a sign and trade Maggette for Hedo that is fine. You can't do a sign and trade till July 15 which is well after the draft anyway.
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Post#90 » by spinedoc » Wed May 7, 2008 11:28 pm

richboy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



One your going on about things that we don't even know and don't even care about. What does the fact that the Kings wouldn't trade Artest for Maggette have to do with Hedo. Artest is coming off perhaps his best season and averaged over 20 per game. I'm not sure I would trade Artest for Maggette either. Hedo is still probably third best of the 3.

Hedo is extremely versatile. Yada Yada Yada. What does that have to do with value from one team to another. Corey Maggette is the Clippers leading scorer of last year. He averaged 22 per night. He goes to the free throw line about 10 times a contest. He has been a better player than Hedo for longer. Please don't start with your homeristic viewpoints that somehow came to the conclusion that somehow the Clippers perceive a actually more productive Maggette value as so much less than Hedo's that there willing to give up the 6 pick to get him.

The Clippers are not going to be caring what JJ Redick was drafted at. Where not talking about what the Magic's value and investment in Redick but what they think of him. Right now JJ Redick can't play on a team with Evans and Bogans at SG. He wouldn't come close to getting in the lottery now. There no way that Redick and a low first is going to get you up to the 6 pick in the draft. What the Clippers want to do has little to do with the Magic. Whatever happens there going to want equal value. Not just give it up because they don't want a young player.

My ability to shoot down your trade proposals is suspect after last year jokes of proposals you were making? Should have seen your post coming a mile away. Instead of actually thinking that perhaps I have some points you once again just toss it out as like you said a year ago. Me just being difficult right. Like I said you make these proposals like teams are out trying to help the Magic.

They can't trade Maggette if he opts out. Its a little too late for them to be worried about loosing him for nothing. If they want to do a sign and trade Maggette for Hedo that is fine. You can't do a sign and trade till July 15 which is well after the draft anyway.


What? I'm going on about things that we don't even know or care about huh? What exactly is it that we do here anyway? If you don't want to talk about it then simply don't reply then. You miss the point entirely anyway. I was referring to when the Artest for Maggette rumors were out there when The PACERS were exploring a trade with the Clippers after Artest's brawl with the Piston fan base, before he was traded to the Kings, remember? The Pacers balked because of Maggette's foot problem. They wanted him at the time, but backed away because they didn't like the risk involved. Then earlier this year, we shot down the idea of Hedo for Artest. One could then continue the logic that Hedo wouldn't be traded for Maggette straight up, because Hedo has more value, perceived or actual.

I love how you say that Hedo is the third best of that group however, after all that effort you put in of how he is so much better than Shard. That really gives us an idea of where you place Lewis in all of this. Like I said, your value system of players is way off base Richboy. I wonder how many here would want to trade Hedo for Maggette straight up. I don't suspect there would be many. For me, and thats all I can speak for, I would not do that deal unless we had a lot of incentive to do so, meaning swapping first round picks. They risk losing him for nothing. We would and should be trading from a position of strength, otherwise there is no need to do a deal from our standpoint. If he still wants to come that badly, he can always sign an mle deal.

Also, I've already said that I wasn't too sure about the Clips being able to trade Maggette at the time of the draft. I question the July 15th date that you suggest however. I wasn't suggesting him opting out as you say, I was talking about him picking up his option after the season was over, or even him restructuring an extension. I thought he could be traded just like any other player already under contract if he does so, I could be wrong on that however. One other thing, what joke trade proposals are you talking about anyway? They surely couldn't have been any worse then your brilliant idea to wait a year or so to use our available capspace, could they?
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Post#91 » by richboy » Thu May 8, 2008 7:19 am

What? I'm going on about things that we don't even know or care about huh? What exactly is it that we do here anyway? If you don't want to talk about it then simply don't reply then. You miss the point entirely anyway. I was referring to when the Artest for Maggette rumors were out there when The PACERS were exploring a trade with the Clippers after Artest's brawl with the Piston fan base, before he was traded to the Kings, remember? The Pacers balked because of Maggette's foot problem. They wanted him at the time, but backed away because they didn't like the risk involved. Then earlier this year, we shot down the idea of Hedo for Artest. One could then continue the logic that Hedo wouldn't be traded for Maggette straight up, because Hedo has more value, perceived or actual.


Your the only one that likes to base there argument on things that he heard. I've never seen any other poster do what you do. Take you back you did that same thing for months on the Jersey board a year ago.

Instead of talking about Hedo vs Maggette as players were talking about what trades may or may not have been discussed. Not to mention your basing this theory on trade value from years ago. We also have no clue if Hedo for Artest was ever truly discussed seriously. The Magic not taking Artest would have more to do with this organizations value of character than actual talent.

I love how you say that Hedo is the third best of that group however, after all that effort you put in of how he is so much better than Shard. That really gives us an idea of where you place Lewis in all of this. Like I said, your value system of players is way off base Richboy. I wonder how many here would want to trade Hedo for Maggette straight up. I don't suspect there would be many. For me, and thats all I can speak for, I would not do that deal unless we had a lot of incentive to do so, meaning swapping first round picks. They risk losing him for nothing. We would and should be trading from a position of strength, otherwise there is no need to do a deal from our standpoint. If he still wants to come that badly, he can always sign an mle deal.


You know just because you say something in a sentence doesn't make it true. I like to back up my arguments. You just like to make statements. The first sentence of this quote says it all. Now before last year Rashard would have likely ranked behind Artest and Maggette on top SF list. Artest a former DPOY who can shut down the top offensive players in the league and also put up 20 a game. Maggette one of the most difficult players in the league to guard. Goes to the line as much as any superstar in the game. If you ask me a couple of years ago Maggette and Artest were better than Lewis.

You wonder how many here would trade Hedo for Maggette. You realize this is the Magic board. You think Hedo would run away with a Maggette vs Hedo trade on the general board or player comparison. Fact is this just shows how your point of view consist. Somehow its crazy to think Artest and Maggette are better than Lewis.You think thats the fealing outside of Orlando.

Also, I've already said that I wasn't too sure about the Clips being able to trade Maggette at the time of the draft. I question the July 15th date that you suggest however. I wasn't suggesting him opting out as you say, I was talking about him picking up his option after the season was over, or even him restructuring an extension. I thought he could be traded just like any other player already under contract if he does so, I could be wrong on that however. One other thing, what joke trade proposals are you talking about anyway? They surely couldn't have been any worse then your brilliant idea to wait a year or so to use our available capspace, could they?


Well the only way the Clippers loose Maggette for nothing is if he opts out. If he opts out he becomes a free agent and can't be involved in a sign and trade till July 15. Now seems like your thinking is Maggette will do the Clippers a favor and excersize his option just so the Clippers can trade him. Now why would Maggette do that when in that situation he stuck with his current salary while he could force a sign and trade for the amount he wants.

You need a refresher to your joke proposals that those teams would be so quick to take. Remember all the draft day deals you expected Otis to make. Remember the long talks about how the Bobcats couldn't wait to take. Dang you even had Hedo being sent to a variety of locations for more cap space.
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Post#92 » by aleZ » Thu May 8, 2008 8:19 am

ivDT wrote:i just can't see us paying him what he's worth when we've sunk so much money into rashard's contract and have so many other issues that need to be addressed


After a 50+ wins regular season and a second round playoff series still going, I really don't see so many problems with this team, but maybe it's just me :roll:

Yeah, moving Shard at PF, getting a star caliber PG or a banger would help, but can anyone on this board really predict success touching the current core? I don't, and I'm really scared of messing with Stan's machine as it is.
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Post#93 » by spinedoc » Thu May 8, 2008 12:09 pm

richboy wrote:
The Magic not taking Artest would have more to do with this organizations value of character than actual talent.



You know just because you say something in a sentence doesn't make it true. I like to back up my arguments. You just like to make statements.


These two statements jumped out at me the most. Of course character matters when your considering their market value, just like previous injuries plays a part in that. Its not as simple as looking up their stats as you like to do. Thats how you end up with Kapono being on the same level as Rashard. It doesn't necessarily translate to reality does it?. Stats don't give you any intangibles at all, and I argue those intangibles are just as important, if not more so actually. Facts are a rarity when talking about the value of players. Its usually nothing more than informed opinion, and they differ greatly sometimes, obviously.

Also, if you were following carefully with that discussion on the Jersey board, you would have seen that it was Arroyo I was trying to dump not Hedo. They were so adamant that we couldn't shed salary by giving up a first round pick and Arroyo to create more cap space. Thats why I took it a step further and suggested giving away Hedo and his contract to a team below the cap, and they still refuted any possibility of creating more cap space. Of course I never thought that was a reality, I was trying to make a point with them and they still conceded nothing. Any plan I had always had Hedo as part of a sign and trade with either Seattle for Lewis or with Jersey for Vince. My plans were centered around keeping Darko, but of course the 800lb gorilla in the room was to let him walk if need be. But we know who was ultimately correct, we ended up getting a max free agent didn't we? As it turned out, we were big time players in that free agent class.
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Post#94 » by richboy » Thu May 8, 2008 9:32 pm

These two statements jumped out at me the most. Of course character matters when your considering their market value, just like previous injuries plays a part in that. Its not as simple as looking up their stats as you like to do. Thats how you end up with Kapono being on the same level as Rashard. It doesn't necessarily translate to reality does it?. Stats don't give you any intangibles at all, and I argue those intangibles are just as important, if not more so actually. Facts are a rarity when talking about the value of players. Its usually nothing more than informed opinion, and they differ greatly sometimes, obviously.


Your not making any arguments. Your just making statements without backing them up. Were talking about Hedo's value in comparison to two SFs that had potentially just as good if not better years. Artest character is a issue but that is for those teams. For the Magic perhaps they would consider him lesser value because of it. That does not mean that Miami, Knicks,Lakers, Mavericks are thinking the same.

I never said Kapono was as good as Rashard. I said that if there going to use Rashard as a spot up shooter on the weakside then they could have done the same thing with Jason Kapono. The reality players are only worth how you decide to use them. If your plan is mainly to utilize Rashard's 3 point shot then why spend so much when you could get a player similar size with a better shot for 1/4 the price.

Also, if you were following carefully with that discussion on the Jersey board, you would have seen that it was Arroyo I was trying to dump not Hedo. They were so adamant that we couldn't shed salary by giving up a first round pick and Arroyo to create more cap space. Thats why I took it a step further and suggested giving away Hedo and his contract to a team below the cap, and they still refuted any possibility of creating more cap space. Of course I never thought that was a reality, I was trying to make a point with them and they still conceded nothing. Any plan I had always had Hedo as part of a sign and trade with either Seattle for Lewis or with Jersey for Vince. My plans were centered around keeping Darko, but of course the 800lb gorilla in the room was to let him walk if need be. But we know who was ultimately correct, we ended up getting a max free agent didn't we? As it turned out, we were big time players in that free agent class.


I was referring to your Hedo for Bobby Simmons trades to Milwaukee or Hedo to the cats for relatively nothing to open cap space. We also have my thread where i said Rashard was not that much better than Hedo and it would be crazy to give Hedo to Seattle in a sign and trade. of course you was ready to go with that as well.

of course we go back to someone else having to concede something to you. I told you those deals wouldn't happen either.Those teams can't just throw away there cap space for future low first round picks.

Yes we paid for a max free agent but we didn't get a max player.Not sure who was ultimately right. That whole discussion was on keeping Darko. Which we didn't. If you had said we will let Darko go and sign Vince or anyone to the max i'm sure they would say the Magic have a shot to sign him then.
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Post#95 » by spinedoc » Fri May 9, 2008 12:15 am

Okay Richboy, I'm going to get off this merry-go-round. Its going nowhere fast. Btw, those were two of my more creative trades ever, but I wouldn't expect you to get it anyway. You have got to be my exact opposite, bizzarro world indeed. :wink:

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