dwight howard/ portland

[taruky1]

Dwight at 22 > The Dream or Duncan at 22.

You're entitled to your opinion. But I think people are enthralled with Dwight's highlight plays and don't look at the big picture. Let's compare their stats;

Olajuwan in his first year (21 going on 22);
PPG 20.6, APG 1.4, RPG 11.9, BPG 2.68, TO 2.85, FG% 53.8%

Dwight last year:
PPG 20.7, APG 1.3, RPG 14, BPG 2.2, TO 3.2, FG% 59%

Olajuwan in his early years played with Sampson (in his prime), and you can bet Dwight wouldn't have 14 RPG playing with Ralph. Dwight ate up a lot of rebounds going to the likes of Rashard. Don't compare Dwight playing his 4th year of NBA basketball to a player coming out of college either. There's a huge difference in the amount of individualized attention received and the practice time. To the best of my knowledge Dwight wasn't taking college courses. Hakeem's offensive game was infinitely better than Dwight's. He could overpower you, or if the double team came he could spin to the baseline and shoot the jumper. Unless you think every guy who has coached the Magic is a complete idiot, Dwight isn't nearly the scoring threat of an Olajuwan. Dwight gets an inordinate amount of his points on rebounds or finishing fast breaks.

Here are Duncan's 1st year stats:
PPG 21.1, APG 2.7, RPG 11.9, BPG 2.5, TO 3.4, FG% 54.9
Duncan was a much better passer than Dwight. This was a guy who made good decisions and was a huge scoring threat in the post. Both Hakeem and Tim make guys around them better. Dwight is an athletic freak and outstanding at a couple things, but his game doesn't have nearly the same balance as Duncan or Olajuwan. I won't even go into Shaq, who was much more of an impact player at a younger age than Dwight.

[MagicStarwipe]

Young Olajuwan was actually pretty raw and relied a fair bit on his freakish athletacism.

[DrunkOnMystery]

Dwight is a great player, but I don't think he is the basketball god some people here seem to think. He does a couple things REALLY well, but is otherwise limited. I remember Duncan at 22 and I would have taken him over Dwight any day. While Dwight is the human highlight reel, Duncan was always the efficient producer who made those around him better. Olajuwan was better than Dwight at the same age. These guys had more than just hops and strength, they had natural basketball skills and instincts Dwight doesn't possess. They were both better individual defenders as well. Dwight is great with help defense, but very vulnerable against versatile guys like Bosh or Rasheed Wallace.

I don't disagree with your assessments that young Duncan and young Hakeem were better than young Dwight, but to suggest that that somehow makes Dwight a less than great player seems a little absurd. Duncan and Dream are two players who could be argued as being top 10 players all time, and I don't think I've ever met a basketball fan who wouldn't put both of them in the top 20. In their respective primes, each was a 20/10 on a bad night player, who also could absolutely lockdown on defense AND was the kind of leader who could will a team to play above its talent level. To say Dwight is not that level is perfectly exceptable. To say he won't ever reach that level is perfectly exceptable. To say that this makes him, in some way, an inferior player seems to be a little insane.

And I should point out, as MagicStarwipe did, that young Hakeem was probably more raw than Dwight is now. He was also more athletic than Dwight is now, and while Dwight may have been more explosive than Dream was, Dream had more grace and agility than Dwight has ever demonstrated. Part of what made the Dream/Sampson combo so devastating was that they were two 7' players who could not only run the fast break, but could lead it. It wasn't until later that he developed into the dominant post player that made Robinson look like an amateur in the West Finals.

Actually, I'd love to debate which version of Hakeem was better, but that's another conversation all together.

[MagicalMan]

In summation, you will not see a thread like this on the Portland board running down Dwight and his teammates when Oden becomes the best center in the league. We will just take glee in our good fortune and the outstanding talent evaluating done by our GM.

people post on the portland board?

In all seriousness why flame all Magic fans for one posters idea?

[eyriq]

Dwight at 22 > The Dream or Duncan at 22.

You're entitled to your opinion. But I think people are enthralled with Dwight's highlight plays and don't look at the big picture. Let's compare their stats;

Olajuwan in his first year (21 going on 22);
PPG 20.6, APG 1.4, RPG 11.9, BPG 2.68, TO 2.85, FG% 53.8%

Dwight last year:
PPG 20.7, APG 1.3, RPG 14, BPG 2.2, TO 3.2, FG% 59%

Olajuwan in his early years played with Sampson (in his prime), and you can bet Dwight wouldn't have 14 RPG playing with Ralph. Dwight ate up a lot of rebounds going to the likes of Rashard. Don't compare Dwight playing his 4th year of NBA basketball to a player coming out of college either. There's a huge difference in the amount of individualized attention received and the practice time. To the best of my knowledge Dwight wasn't taking college courses. Hakeem's offensive game was infinitely better than Dwight's. He could overpower you, or if the double team came he could spin to the baseline and shoot the jumper. Unless you think every guy who has coached the Magic is a complete idiot, Dwight isn't nearly the scoring threat of an Olajuwan. Dwight gets an inordinate amount of his points on rebounds or finishing fast breaks.

Here are Duncan's 1st year stats:
PPG 21.1, APG 2.7, RPG 11.9, BPG 2.5, TO 3.4, FG% 54.9
Duncan was a much better passer than Dwight. This was a guy who made good decisions and was a huge scoring threat in the post. Both Hakeem and Tim make guys around them better. Dwight is an athletic freak and outstanding at a couple things, but his game doesn't have nearly the same balance as Duncan or Olajuwan. I won't even go into Shaq, who was much more of an impact player at a younger age than Dwight.

As you are to yours of course. Advanced statistics tell a similar story. Dwight was the better scorer and rebounder while Duncan and then Olajuwon were slightly better defenders. Duncan battled injuries that year and so that is a major knock and something that takes that year out of serious consideration. Dwight had a better PER (22.9 vs 21.1) than Olajuwon and had a better WS (36 vs 32). Overall the stats seem to indicate that Dwight is indeed the better player at 22. The only guy that really blows out Dwight in terms of 22 year old skilled bigs is Shaq, who was already one of the best ever at the position.

The bottom line is that Dwight is already showing a learning curve that puts him amongst the best EVER. His main weaknesses are turnovers and foul shooting, and he can improve both. It would also be nice if he could become as good a passer as is Duncan.

[taruky1]

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I don't disagree with your assessments that young Duncan and young Hakeem were better than young Dwight, but to suggest that that somehow makes Dwight a less than great player seems a little absurd. Duncan and Dream are two players who could be argued as being top 10 players all time, and I don't think I've ever met a basketball fan who wouldn't put both of them in the top 20. In their respective primes, each was a 20/10 on a bad night player, who also could absolutely lockdown on defense AND was the kind of leader who could will a team to play above its talent level. To say Dwight is not that level is perfectly exceptable. To say he won't ever reach that level is perfectly exceptable. To say that this makes him, in some way, an inferior player seems to be a little insane.

And I should point out, as MagicStarwipe did, that young Hakeem was probably more raw than Dwight is now. He was also more athletic than Dwight is now, and while Dwight may have been more explosive than Dream was, Dream had more grace and agility than Dwight has ever demonstrated. Part of what made the Dream/Sampson combo so devastating was that they were two 7' players who could not only run the fast break, but could lead it. It wasn't until later that he developed into the dominant post player that made Robinson look like an amateur in the West Finals.

Actually, I'd love to debate which version of Hakeem was better, but that's another conversation all together.

I've acknowledged that Dwight is a great player, don't get me wrong. I don't think I'd straight up trade him for anyone in the NBA. But the original point I was trying to make is that there are some guys you wouldn't trade PERIOD, as no combination of players would replace what they offer. In the case of Dwight, getting a fantastic young Brandon Roy, Greg Oden (assuming he can be even borderline all-star quality), and the #13 pick would make the Magic better than they are with Dwight. Now if I had Hakeem, Tim, or Shaq at 22 I'm not sure I make those trades.

[taruky1]

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As you are to yours of course. Advanced statistics tell a similar story. Dwight was the better scorer and rebounder while Duncan and then Olajuwon were slightly better defenders. Duncan battled injuries that year and so that is a major knock and something that takes that year out of serious consideration. Dwight had a better PER (22.9 vs 21.1) than Olajuwon and had a better WS (36 vs 32). Overall the stats seem to indicate that Dwight is indeed the better player at 22. The only guy that really blows out Dwight in terms of 22 year old skilled bigs is Shaq, who was already one of the best ever at the position.

The bottom line is that Dwight is already showing a learning curve that puts him amongst the best EVER. His main weaknesses are turnovers and foul shooting, and he can improve both. It would also be nice if he could become as good a passer as is Duncan.

Dwight's main weaknesses also include shooting jumpers and dribbling in the post. I wouldn't call it a weakness, but his individual defense is much weaker than Duncan and Olajuwan.

Duncan played 82 games in his rookie season

How did you come up with Dwight being a better scorer than them? He averaged the same PPG as Olajuwan, and Duncan averaged more than both. The PER is misleading, because Dwight does not initiate much of the offense like they did. If Dwight shoots a few jumpers, his rating will go down although it would help the team.

Everybody looks at Dwight's "learning curve", which I also think is a little misleading. A guy coming out of high school is going to have a steeper learning curve than a guy coming out of college (assuming he's good enough to play). You can't compare his learning curve to the Duncans and Hakeems.

[drsd]

Dwight Howard is a similar player to Moses Malone in his style. Let's compare stats.

Malone at 22:
19.4 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 0.5 apg, 1.3 bpg.

Looks like Howard is ahead of the curve. Interesting thought as Moses Malone is the forth best Center ever.

[taruky1]

Dwight Howard is a similar player to Moses Malone in his style. Let's compare stats.

Malone at 22:
19.4 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 0.5 apg, 1.3 bpg.

Looks like Howard is ahead of the curve. Interesting thought as Moses Malone is the forth best Center ever.

If you look at Moses' 4th year in the league he averaged 24.8 and 17.6 rebounds. Granted he was 23 then. By the way, I am counting his 1st year with Buffalo (6 minutes the whole year). Moses was also a much better free throw shooter.

Look, people can spin stats any way they want, myself included. But I look at Dwight and while he is hugely important to the team, I do not see him as someone irreplacable by even an all-star caliber SG, a possible all-star caliber center, and a #13 pick. Right now I probably don't make that trade because I have no idea how Greg's knees hold up. But as I said IF he is even a borderline all-star, the Magic come out ahead in that trade. Now if we're talking a guy who rebounds, plays great defense, can score in the post no matter who is guarding him or what kind of doubles are thrown at him, and can pass the ball to make teammates better, you can't replace that. With a decent power forward and a guy like Chris Kaman, the Magic get the Dwight + Rashard rebounds and the Dwight + Rashard blocks blocks. PLUS you add Brandon Roy to the mix? Magic become an instant contender.

[lovehoops01]

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If you look at Moses' 4th year in the league he averaged 24.8 and 17.6 rebounds. Granted he was 23 then. By the way, I am counting his 1st year with Buffalo (6 minutes the whole year). Moses was also a much better free throw shooter.

Look, people can spin stats any way they want, myself included. But I look at Dwight and while he is hugely important to the team, I do not see him as someone irreplacable by even an all-star caliber SG, a possible all-star caliber center, and a #13 pick. Right now I probably don't make that trade because I have no idea how Greg's knees hold up. But as I said IF he is even a borderline all-star, the Magic come out ahead in that trade. Now if we're talking a guy who rebounds, plays great defense, can score in the post no matter who is guarding him or what kind of doubles are thrown at him, and can pass the ball to make teammates better, you can't replace that. With a decent power forward and a guy like Chris Kaman, the Magic get the Dwight + Rashard rebounds and the Dwight + Rashard blocks blocks. PLUS you add Brandon Roy to the mix? Magic become an instant contender.

I can't believe anyone stlll is even debating this since there is no chance in hell that it would happen from either team's point of view. But I think the big factor that you are forgetting is you are not going to know the stuff in bold before you make the trade. Besides, Dwight and the Magic have invested four years together working to help him become the player that he is right now. They have committed to stay with each other for another five years. You'd be starting from scratch with a new player. I know right now what the Magic have in Dwight, and I am very happy with it. Find or develop your own Brandon Roy, and who knows what the No. 13 pick will be?

[Magiclee]

I think trying to compare Dwight at this age to Duncan or Hakeem is a little difficult to do because they play the game in vastly different ways. You can claim that they were better because they had better skills than Dwight such as passing and a jumpshot. They indeed were much better at Dwight in those areas. However, Dwight is much better in physical dominance. That is a skill that many just do not seem to recognize.

Dwight more than likely will never have Duncan's efficiency in the post no mater how hard he works at it, yet Duncan would never have been able to have guys bounce off him while jumping over them all no matter how hard he worked at it. Dwight's physicality is a skill no different than Duncan's footwork. Now, you might say that Duncan had to earn those skills through dilligent practice and it was not gifted to him by DNA, and you'd be right in that assessment. However, it's not like Dwight hasn't practiced dilligently in the weightroom to maximize what his DNA allows and to play the way he currently plays.

I think sometimes we need to sit back and re-evaluate what a skill is. Magic Johnson was so good because of his court vision. You can work at that but to most extents you are born with it. Jameer Nelson can practice all he wants but he will never have Jason Kidd's brain. Allen Iverson relies on his first step as much as anything and he was born with that. Those are skills no different than Dwight's, only those get noticed more because they are... I'll say prettier for lack of a better word. They give the appearance of gracefullness as opposed to Dwight's bull in the china shop routine, yet they are no different.

To me, saying Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon was a better player because he was more skilled is not quite accurate. Duncan and Hakeem were better than Dwight in the aspects of their game they chose to showcase, just as Dwight is better in the aspects and methods he chooses to use. Every player uses what they have to the best of their abilities and often times the results end up the same, no matter how they got there.