Defense wins championships: Trade Vuc for a SF. Ibaka at the 5, Gordon at the 4

[AshBlackstone]

Why would we trade for a stretch 4 when we already have Ibaka and AG, not to mention two centers who getting paid big money?

And seeing how Cousins totally destroyed Ibaka in the post did nothing to make me more comfortable about the idea of him playing mostly at center.

I don't really understand why people are worried about Ibaka playing the 5 because he might get beat down in the post.

Look around the league. The good teams aren't playing in the post anymore. What team in the Eastern Conference does Orlando have to worry about destroying Ibaka in the post?

Atlanta, Detroit, Toronto, New Jersey, Miami, Milwaukee, Indiana...

And it's not so much about being destroyed in the post than about rebounding. He struggles at this even as PF. As I said, Ibaka can play the 5 for stretches, but full time does not seem like a good idea to me.

The good teams now have quality small ball lineups they can implement at any moment, floor spacing on offense, and quality rim protection.

We won't have that if we put Ibaka at the 5 either. He's been worse than Vucevic defensively this year even while playing his preferred position.

Which of those teams actually have great offensive post players. Since when is Dwight Howard a great player on the low block on offense? His entire career has been about put backs and dunks, and getting destroyed for not having a back to the basket game. Brook Lopez is a 7 foot shooting guard. Myles Turner...more of a jump shooter as well. Drummond is a poor man's Orlando version of Howard. Hassan Whiteside is legit, but Miami isn't any good.

Guys throwing up 12-15 points per game on either putbacks or jumpers shouldn't be dictating Orlando's decision making process. Hassan Whiteside is basically the only guy in the East that Orlando has to worry about, that is truly a dominant low post scorer. And Miami is terrible.

It's been a small sample size with Ibaka at the 5 in a new system. You know what isn't a small sample size though? How many teams are failing over the last several years because they're stuck in 1994.

You're worried that putting at Ibaka at the 5 won't work because of a small sample size. I'm ready to try something different, because the last 4 years are large enough sample size to tell me...and you, that the path we are on is the wrong one.

[Mc-o]

The only thing holding AG back right now is his role in the offense. He could stand to be a bit more selfish with the ball and taking more initiative to shots. His efficiencies are still high. 6 games in but is anyone complaining about his .389 3P%? Or 1.8 SPG? His bump in AST or PPG have been mild, but trending upwards. He has the 2nd highest PER on the team, all while learning a new position. I'm not ready to call AG a struggling SF nor am I ready to call Frank Vogel's basketball mind idiotic.

dude it goes deeper than 3 point shooting. Aaron can't take anyone off the dribble at the 3, and it really hurts an offense that already lacks people who can do that.

Now imagine if he was playing the 4 and shooting the 3 like that, pulling a big away from the basket? my issue is not his shooting, also while his ball handling cannot beat 3's off the dribble, it could beat 4's.

He's not supposed to dribble around guys. He's supposed to be dribbling through guys. Put those shoulders down and attack. Score or draw foul.

He needs to be given the green light to LEAD this team. He needs a change in mentality to be on constant attack.

That's the thing , he has never played like that ! Your expecting him to do something he doesn't do ! That's not his game , his game is defense, and on offense his game is hustle plays and the occasional spot up three , which would be awesome if he was playing the 4 !!!! Now I do believe he can play some minutes at three but to never let him play the 4 is crazy to me !! We have taken all his advantages on offense away by making him play the 3! He doesn't attack the rim because that's not his game !!

[Skin]

Of course you wouldn't.

However, if we have no spacing and little to no threat of outside scoring aside from Evan or Mario (in the 10-15minutes he plays) Then AG at the 3 is dumb spacing wise.

From 3 tonight...
AG 1-4
Mario 1-6
Evan 1-5

No it's not dumb. This whole spacing idea is over exaggerated. Did you see spacing from Chicago tonight? How does Rondo, Wade and Butler stack up as 3PT shooters? The Bulls shot 3-19 from 3 as a team, yet smoked our asses.

What we need AG to do more is attack the rim with more aggressiveness and either score or draw fouls. He has the size and explosiveness to outmuscle his way to the rim, but he hasn't learned to enforce his will yet.

Jimmy Butler is a SF who doesn't create spacing. 0-2 from 3PT land, but 10-10 on his FTA. AG on the other hand 2-2 FTA. That is one of the most glaring things that needs to change. AG at least took more shots than he normally does and that's good. This is just a process that requires more patience.

I would like to see more of this also, and him get to the FT line more than 2-3 times per game.

There were many exclamations for a young Lebron to take a bigger initiative in scoring the ball. For some of these guys, it takes constant motivation. Even in a recent WireTap article, Lebron talks about scoring never being a goal of his. But he was put in a role to do so and his team relied on him to do so. He was never put on a team with a high scoring Center... which gets me back to how we are built. Vuc is a square peg in a round hole. I fully acknowledge his skills as a basketball player, but the fit is not good with him in our starting line up. Payton being a non-shooter is also a big problem.

Henny needs to follow the template of the way CLE and MIA built teams around MIA.... then put Gordon in that Lebron role (in other words, increasing the team's reliance on him as a scorer and giving him the green light to attack and only taking open looks from 3). My 2 cents.

[Nemesis21]

No it's not dumb. This whole spacing idea is over exaggerated. Did you see spacing from Chicago tonight? How does Rondo, Wade and Butler stack up as 3PT shooters? The Bulls shot 3-19 from 3 as a team, yet smoked our asses.

What we need AG to do more is attack the rim with more aggressiveness and either score or draw fouls. He has the size and explosiveness to outmuscle his way to the rim, but he hasn't learned to enforce his will yet.

Jimmy Butler is a SF who doesn't create spacing. 0-2 from 3PT land, but 10-10 on his FTA. AG on the other hand 2-2 FTA. That is one of the most glaring things that needs to change. AG at least took more shots than he normally does and that's good. This is just a process that requires more patience.

I would like to see more of this also, and him get to the FT line more than 2-3 times per game.

There were many exclamations for a young Lebron to take a bigger initiative in scoring the ball. For some of these guys, it takes constant motivation. Even in a recent WireTap article, Lebron talks about scoring never being a goal of his. But he was put in a role to do so and his team relied on him to do so. He was never put on a team with a high scoring Center... which gets me back to how we are built. Vuc is a square peg in a round hole. I fully acknowledge his skills as a basketball player, but the fit is not good with him in our starting line up. Payton being a non-shooter is also a big problem.

Henny needs to follow the template of the way CLE and MIA built teams around MIA.... then put Gordon in that Lebron role (in other words, increasing the team's reliance on him as a scorer and giving him the green light to attack and only taking open looks from 3). My 2 cents.

I was just thinking this, he needs to go all Lebron when he gets the ball. Attack the basket, he's got enough muscle on his frame to kind of bully his way through the lane, he also has the speed and athleticism to do so. Would be great if his FTA per game were somewhere in the 5-8 range.

[Mc-o]

I would like to see more of this also, and him get to the FT line more than 2-3 times per game.

There were many exclamations for a young Lebron to take a bigger initiative in scoring the ball. For some of these guys, it takes constant motivation. Even in a recent WireTap article, Lebron talks about scoring never being a goal of his. But he was put in a role to do so and his team relied on him to do so. He was never put on a team with a high scoring Center... which gets me back to how we are built. Vuc is a square peg in a round hole. I fully acknowledge his skills as a basketball player, but the fit is not good with him in our starting line up. Payton being a non-shooter is also a big problem.

Henny needs to follow the template of the way CLE and MIA built teams around MIA.... then put Gordon in that Lebron role (in other words, increasing the team's reliance on him as a scorer and giving him the green light to attack and only taking open looks from 3). My 2 cents.

I was just thinking this, he needs to go all Lebron when he gets the ball. Attack the basket, he's got enough muscle on his frame to kind of bully his way through the lane, he also has the speed and athleticism to do so. Would be great if his FTA per game were somewhere in the 5-8 range.

I'm not seeing the comparison but how awesome it would be if you guys were right

[Xatticus]

I would like to see more of this also, and him get to the FT line more than 2-3 times per game.

There were many exclamations for a young Lebron to take a bigger initiative in scoring the ball. For some of these guys, it takes constant motivation. Even in a recent WireTap article, Lebron talks about scoring never being a goal of his. But he was put in a role to do so and his team relied on him to do so. He was never put on a team with a high scoring Center... which gets me back to how we are built. Vuc is a square peg in a round hole. I fully acknowledge his skills as a basketball player, but the fit is not good with him in our starting line up. Payton being a non-shooter is also a big problem.

Henny needs to follow the template of the way CLE and MIA built teams around MIA.... then put Gordon in that Lebron role (in other words, increasing the team's reliance on him as a scorer and giving him the green light to attack and only taking open looks from 3). My 2 cents.

I was just thinking this, he needs to go all Lebron when he gets the ball. Attack the basket, he's got enough muscle on his frame to kind of bully his way through the lane, he also has the speed and athleticism to do so. Would be great if his FTA per game were somewhere in the 5-8 range.

I think he is trying right now. The problem I see is that he keeps settling for mid-range jumpers off the dribble, which is certainly not where we want to see his development culminating. I'm willing to suffer some awkwardness if it leads to his development.

[Skin]

There were many exclamations for a young Lebron to take a bigger initiative in scoring the ball. For some of these guys, it takes constant motivation. Even in a recent WireTap article, Lebron talks about scoring never being a goal of his. But he was put in a role to do so and his team relied on him to do so. He was never put on a team with a high scoring Center... which gets me back to how we are built. Vuc is a square peg in a round hole. I fully acknowledge his skills as a basketball player, but the fit is not good with him in our starting line up. Payton being a non-shooter is also a big problem.

Henny needs to follow the template of the way CLE and MIA built teams around MIA.... then put Gordon in that Lebron role (in other words, increasing the team's reliance on him as a scorer and giving him the green light to attack and only taking open looks from 3). My 2 cents.

I was just thinking this, he needs to go all Lebron when he gets the ball. Attack the basket, he's got enough muscle on his frame to kind of bully his way through the lane, he also has the speed and athleticism to do so. Would be great if his FTA per game were somewhere in the 5-8 range.

I think he is trying right now. The problem I see is that he keeps settling for mid-range jumpers off the dribble, which is certainly not where we want to see his development culminating. I'm willing to suffer some awkwardness if it leads to his development.

Yeah, he's got to stop that. He's not going to be like Paul Pierce.

[Fiddlesticks]

No it's not dumb. This whole spacing idea is over exaggerated. Did you see spacing from Chicago tonight? How does Rondo, Wade and Butler stack up as 3PT shooters? The Bulls shot 3-19 from 3 as a team, yet smoked our asses.

What we need AG to do more is attack the rim with more aggressiveness and either score or draw fouls. He has the size and explosiveness to outmuscle his way to the rim, but he hasn't learned to enforce his will yet.

Jimmy Butler is a SF who doesn't create spacing. 0-2 from 3PT land, but 10-10 on his FTA. AG on the other hand 2-2 FTA. That is one of the most glaring things that needs to change. AG at least took more shots than he normally does and that's good. This is just a process that requires more patience.

I would like to see more of this also, and him get to the FT line more than 2-3 times per game.

There were many exclamations for a young Lebron to take a bigger initiative in scoring the ball. For some of these guys, it takes constant motivation. Even in a recent WireTap article, Lebron talks about scoring never being a goal of his. But he was put in a role to do so and his team relied on him to do so. He was never put on a team with a high scoring Center... which gets me back to how we are built. Vuc is a square peg in a round hole. I fully acknowledge his skills as a basketball player, but the fit is not good with him in our starting line up. Payton being a non-shooter is also a big problem.

Henny needs to follow the template of the way CLE and MIA built teams around MIA.... then put Gordon in that Lebron role (in other words, increasing the team's reliance on him as a scorer and giving him the green light to attack and only taking open looks from 3). My 2 cents.

That would be wonderful but i think that comparison is not accurate. I think Tayshaun Prince in his prime is a much better comparison a great defender who scores around 15 Points that adds in 3-4 assits, AG is a superior athlete and better on the boards but other then that it is a very fair comparison. Tayshaun Prince was a great player in his prime but not a super star. everyone wants super stars but i can name plenty of NBA Teams that have Super stars that will never win championships ( OKC, HOU, POR, NY,ETC). You can win championships without Superstars ( The Spurs) you play great as a team and in the biggest moments Great players can outplay super stars.

The Biggest problem i see is our team does not Work quite right. Its like we have pieces from 4 different puzzles but we are still trying to build one puzzle with all the pieces that do not fit. There is going to be a lot of suggestions of how one trade or how moving around starters and trying new line ups could fix all of our problems. Our Management needs to make some decisions but i think unfortunately its time for everyone to realize we need to Lower our exceptions, Hope our best players continue to grow, and most importantly spend our money wisely.

[PennytoShaq]

It's just weird to me how management built a potentially damn good small ball roster and just refuses to try it.

I love the idea of starting Mario at the 1 and running a Mario/Evan/Green/Gordon/Biz lineup. We need offense so badly. Let's get 4 guys out there who can score the ball decently and then use the Elf/Vuc 2 man game against the other team's bench.

[Tayswagzzz]

It's just weird to me how management built a potentially damn good small ball roster and just refuses to try it.

I love the idea of starting Mario at the 1 and running a Mario/Evan/Green/Gordon/Biz lineup. We need offense so badly. Let's get 4 guys out there who can score the ball decently and then use the Elf/Vuc 2 man game against the other team's bench.

Yeah let Mario or Gordon play point. I honestly don't mind that lineup.

It's pretty lame to have Ibaka and Vuc coming off the bench. Oh well. Might be for the best. But it further proves my point that our roster construction and where we are spending money at is really wacky right now.

[PennytoShaq]

It's just weird to me how management built a potentially damn good small ball roster and just refuses to try it.

I love the idea of starting Mario at the 1 and running a Mario/Evan/Green/Gordon/Biz lineup. We need offense so badly. Let's get 4 guys out there who can score the ball decently and then use the Elf/Vuc 2 man game against the other team's bench.

Yeah let Mario or Gordon play point. I honestly don't mind that lineup.

It's pretty lame to have Ibaka and Vuc coming off the bench. Oh well. Might be for the best. But it further proves my point that our roster construction and where we are spending money at is really wacky right now.

It is kind of lame, but our starting lineup is SO bad that we need to get a little crazy.

[Skin]

I would like to see more of this also, and him get to the FT line more than 2-3 times per game.

There were many exclamations for a young Lebron to take a bigger initiative in scoring the ball. For some of these guys, it takes constant motivation. Even in a recent WireTap article, Lebron talks about scoring never being a goal of his. But he was put in a role to do so and his team relied on him to do so. He was never put on a team with a high scoring Center... which gets me back to how we are built. Vuc is a square peg in a round hole. I fully acknowledge his skills as a basketball player, but the fit is not good with him in our starting line up. Payton being a non-shooter is also a big problem.

Henny needs to follow the template of the way CLE and MIA built teams around MIA.... then put Gordon in that Lebron role (in other words, increasing the team's reliance on him as a scorer and giving him the green light to attack and only taking open looks from 3). My 2 cents.

That would be wonderful but i think that comparison is not accurate. I think Tayshaun Prince in his prime is a much better comparison a great defender who scores around 15 Points that adds in 3-4 assits, AG is a superior athlete and better on the boards but other then that it is a very fair comparison. Tayshaun Prince was a great player in his prime but not a super star. everyone wants super stars but i can name plenty of NBA Teams that have Super stars that will never win championships ( OKC, HOU, POR, NY,ETC). You can win championships without Superstars ( The Spurs) you play great as a team and in the biggest moments Great players can outplay super stars.

The Biggest problem i see is our team does not Work quite right. Its like we have pieces from 4 different puzzles but we are still trying to build one puzzle with all the pieces that do not fit. There is going to be a lot of suggestions of how one trade or how moving around starters and trying new line ups could fix all of our problems. Our Management needs to make some decisions but i think unfortunately its time for everyone to realize we need to Lower our exceptions, Hope our best players continue to grow, and most importantly spend our money wisely.

I never thought of Prince before. That does sound like a reasonable comparison. But my Lebron reference was never a player vs player comparison. It was more based on how his usage, his role, the motivations he needed... I guess the blurry part that lead you there is because they both share the physicality to drive and finish at the rim and both have/had weaknesses in shooting that need(ed) to be improved as young players. Lebron still isn't a good shooter, but he makes up for it by attacking the rim... something that must be encouraged more in Gordon.

[erod009]

We should play Elf, Mario and Gordon as many minutes as possible.
Go lottery, wait for the summer to let Green and Ibaka go and start over.