Game 21: Orlando Magic (8-12) @ Detroit Pistons (11-10) - 6:00 PM ET

[NBlue]

I still dont understand how people are missing harris, he is a nice guy but he is what he is

i guess its the same thing as people missing Dipo. young player that developed on the team, and then was moved. But you feel the team would be better if that player was on the team now. Harris (or any decent SF) would increase our PPG right now

I'm not sure I follow. I was a big Dipo fan but I think its difficult to argue that putting Dipo back on this squad and taking away Serge makes this team better.

[tiderulz]

I still dont understand how people are missing harris, he is a nice guy but he is what he is

i guess its the same thing as people missing Dipo. young player that developed on the team, and then was moved. But you feel the team would be better if that player was on the team now. Harris (or any decent SF) would increase our PPG right now

I'm not sure I follow. I was a big Dipo fan but I think its difficult to argue that putting Dipo back on this squad and taking away Serge makes this team better.

it was the comment on people missing a past player, not on how the team is constructed.

And with everyone saying AG's spot is PF, if AG was playing PF with Dipo at SG, Evan at SF (same as last year) but with DJ and BB starting, would be interesting.

[BadMofoPimp]

Possibly going 4-1 on a road trip which really should've been 5-0 and you have people saying Vucevic deserves to be starting. When he was in the starting lineup in November he was ass. Even in the games he snapped we were losing them. Now he's in the position to succeed people wanna turn a blind eye to a month ago and act like he's been always playing at this level. The majority of folks wanted him traded immediately before because he was that bad at playing and fitting in. Having two big men in the starting lineup you have to feed the ball to almost every possession is trash ball these days, because neither him or Ibaka wants to pass the ball. The team is on a good run but I don't see this being sustainable because we need a scorer who can at least play decent defense. Some players will need to be traded if playoffs is the goal.

LOl we started playing better because we benched EP and GREEN not VUC. Its only a matter of time before he starts again. Vogel subs out Bizmack early in the 1st for a reason. Vogel moved VUc to the bench to help out EP and our bench since he was moving the bench scorer to starting line up (DJ) .

I still don't see Biz being a dominate Defensive presence. Every game I see him getting beaten on the perimeter and in the post often. I would say he is marginally better than Vooch only in that he can alter shots sometimes. Vooch is playing better defense in many other areas due to higher IQ and being in better position. Biz sometimes makes up for it by his athletic ability. Together, I think they make for a great Center foundation cuz based on matchups, we can put the right guy in there. It really doesn't matter who starts as long as the team wins and both players buy into the system.

[Catledge]

In Vooch's last start, he had 3 blocks, 3 steals, 17 rebounds, and 17 points on 50% shooting.

I'm not complaining about him getting benched, just saying that getting benched is not the reason he is playing well.

[The Other Ankle]

that is very much on Henny. He lowballed Harris with an $8mil/yr offer and never negotiated after that. Word was that he could have gotten him much under the $16mil/yr or so he ended up with.

Maybe that happened. You don't really know.

It is true that Harris worked his ass off AFTER not getting the extension, specifically on his 3-ball and improved quite a bit.

What was he worth at the 3-point percentage he had up to that point? Did NOT getting the extension light a fire under his ass?

It's a muddled subject that I don't think any of us want to spend any time on at this point.

My point is just that I don't understand why no GM -- again, except maybe Ainge -- saw the new NBA economy coming and used it to their advantage. Lightly regarded free agents with potential could have been given long term contracts two years ago that would now be well below league average. Our own Bismack Biyombo signed with Toronto for how much last year after being allowed to walk by the team that drafted him? His stock was LOW!

Wouldn't guys who hadn't yet panned out, but still might, have taken long-term deals for $4 million a year with team options? I'm not talking about KNOWING who was going to develop better than other GMs. I just don't see why there wasn't more creative betting on long-shots. It literally could not have hurt, and if even one panned out you would end up with a significant roster advantage.

we do know that he offered him $8mil a year, as much as he offered a much older Channing Frye. And i agree with your view on working before the cap rise, though i dont many agents would have agreed. They saw the bigger paydays coming too, and had their clients wait it out.

That's the part that I just don't buy into. An agent for a guy who was getting one-year, minimum offers would have a hard time arguing against a guaranteed money deal of $8 million on a four year contract with two team option years. And a player who was on the fringe would have had a hard time NOT taking that money.

Again, I'm not saying that GMs needed to be prescient about who would develop. But if they wrote three such contracts and just one guy became a rotation player, then they would have a huge roster advantage in years 3 & 4, even if they other two washed out sooner.

Anyway, it's 2017 now and lots of guys who don't start just got 8 figure annual salaries for the first time in the history of sports.

We have one extension "bargain" in Vuc at $12 million. Boston has Thomas, Bradley, & Crowder for a combined $21 million in deals inked during that period. Crowder was a near throw-in in the Rondo trade that took what seemed to be a reasonable offer at the time. Then "BOOM" went the dollars!

[asianguy]

In Vooch's last start, he had 3 blocks, 3 steals, 17 rebounds, and 17 points on 50% shooting.

I'm not complaining about him getting benched, just saying that getting benched is not the reason he is playing well.

Agreed. Vucevic started extremely slow this year, but I think he was going to pick it up whether he got bench or not. However, Magic is doing much better when not starting Vucevic and Ibaka together, their defense was laughable together at the beginning of the season.

[OrlandO]

In Vooch's last start, he had 3 blocks, 3 steals, 17 rebounds, and 17 points on 50% shooting.

I'm not complaining about him getting benched, just saying that getting benched is not the reason he is playing well.

Yeah, he was leading in on/off drtg and on/off +/- as a starter and he's still leading them now coming off the bench. Difference is he is healthy now, so he can contribute more in the scoring department. A lot of our guys came out of the gates looking like crap and it wasn't due to lineups. They were learning to play in a new system for a new coach and with new teammates... didn't help that Vogel was allowing the inmates to run the prison either. He finally started assigning roles and using players to their strengths. He's also mixing up subs more. That's not to say there aren't benefits from the lineup change... just pointing out there are plenty of reasons why the team is playing better now compared to earlier in the season.

[The Real Dalic]

Just realized that a poster or two are missing now that we've been looking better. I fully expect them back when we get a loss or two.

I haven't been around at night watching games lately as I been going out with a new ole lady! Can't let her know I am a Magic geek yet. Thus, mainly posting while at work.

Wasn't talking about you anyway.

[basketballRob]

Possibly going 4-1 on a road trip which really should've been 5-0 and you have people saying Vucevic deserves to be starting. When he was in the starting lineup in November he was ass. Even in the games he snapped we were losing them. Now he's in the position to succeed people wanna turn a blind eye to a month ago and act like he's been always playing at this level. The majority of folks wanted him traded immediately before because he was that bad at playing and fitting in. Having two big men in the starting lineup you have to feed the ball to almost every possession is trash ball these days, because neither him or Ibaka wants to pass the ball. The team is on a good run but I don't see this being sustainable because we need a scorer who can at least play decent defense. Some players will need to be traded if playoffs is the goal.

LOl we started playing better because we benched EP and GREEN not VUC. Its only a matter of time before he starts again. Vogel subs out Bizmack early in the 1st for a reason. Vogel moved VUc to the bench to help out EP and our bench since he was moving the bench scorer to starting line up (DJ) .

I still don't see Biz being a dominate Defensive presence. Every game I see him getting beaten on the perimeter and in the post often. I would say he is marginally better than Vooch only in that he can alter shots sometimes. Vooch is playing better defense in many other areas due to higher IQ and being in better position. Biz sometimes makes up for it by his athletic ability. Together, I think they make for a great Center foundation cuz based on matchups, we can put the right guy in there. It really doesn't matter who starts as long as the team wins and both players buy into the system.

Dante was just saying on the telecast that since the lineup change they've been a top 20 offense, so I don't see it changing anytime soon.

I think Biz has been a beast, head and shoulders better than Vuc on defense. You are joking about that right? It's almost instantly when Vuc is in, the other team attacks the paint and more times than not, gets a layup.

[Big A All Day]

Just got a chance to catch the game. Hell of game by Ibaka and even though Evan couldn't get a shot off he played excellent defense, particularly in the 3rd.

All around great game for us its night and day from the beginning of the year.