Magic(16-21) vs. Rockets(28-9)

[Dennis Reynolds]

We actually didn't suck at all without Fournier last season. The only time we had a positive net rating was when he wasn't playing. This season I agree but the goal is to suck as little as possible.

[yoyojw17]

Was at the game tonight and it was one of the best crowds I've seen in a long time at amway. It's sad the performances this team continues to give for the home fans. The fans want a team they can get behind but they are just not producing at home.

AG finally got the minutes he deserved tonight. We will see if frank is actually coming around or soley had him out there to guard harden. Nights like this show the type of player AG can be. He is a special talent and a potentially elite defender. His minutes should never dip below 30. This guy is the future and one bright spot for this franchise right now.

Hopefully frank is finally seeing that and realizing that we are a flat out better team on both ends of the floor when he's out there.

You really think Frank simply cannot see how AG is playing? Thats incredible ignorant. Hes a top calibre coach. Hes sees it all. Certainly more than a fsn at home. Lets trust in our coach a bit. The results sofar have been strong and he has earnt some trust.

Vogel doesn't see chit. His awful decision making is the reason the Pacers lost to the Raptors with DeRozan and Lowry playing absolutely awful. The Raptors were choking out of this world even for their standards and Vogel didn't manage to eliminate them even with George playing like a top 3 player.

He got fired for a reason.

The reason they lost was because of Biyombo.... hence the reason he is on the team now. lol

[OrlandO]

The stats say we suck with Fournier on the court and we also suck without him on the court. They also show we suck with anyone on our team on the court btw.

Except when we have DJ / Fournier / Gordon / Ibaka / Vuc out there. 122.0 ORTG, 98.7 DRTG, 23.4 NETRTG, +37 +/-

[rcklsscognition]

2015-2016 RPM stats, which adjust for teammates on the court, opponents, and other factors:

Mario Hezonja: -3.19 (Terrible)
Evan Fournier: -1.02
Victor Oladipo: +2.59

2016-2017:

Evan Fournier: -0.77
Jodie Meeks: -0.95
CJ Wilcox: -2.17
Mario Hezonja: -4.07 (Even worse than last year terrible)


Rest of team:

2016-2017

Ibaka: +1.18
Vuc: +0.17 (Interesting his ORPM is bad and DRPM is much better than others)
Payton: -0.56
AG: -0.73
Fournier: -0.77
Meeks: -0.95
Zimm: -1.32
Rudez: -1.65
DJ: -1.69
Wilcox: -2.17
Biz: -2.28 (Offense so bad his good defense doesn't even come close making up for it)
Watson: -2.50
JG: -3.67
Mario: -4.07

[rcklsscognition]

The stats say we suck with Fournier on the court and we also suck without him on the court. They also show we suck with anyone on our team on the court btw.

Except when we have DJ / Fournier / Gordon / Ibaka / Vuc out there. 122.0 ORTG, 98.7 DRTG, 23.4 NETRTG, +37 +/-

I see they played 4 minutes a game 15 times and are a +2.5 rating on the back of 55% from 3 and 68% from 2. That isn't sustainable but it a good lineup.

[PennytoShaq]

I'm tired of this so here we go.





These are the numbers from last season. Out of all the players who played significant minutes Oladipo had the best net rating. Just shows why a lot of people liked him more than Fournier despite him being a worse shooter and a poor decision maker. He simply impacts the game in so many ways and it shows. He was driving most of us crazy but he was giving his best all time and that's why we appreciated him.

Right behind him are AG and Mario. We were significantly worse with them on the bench. AG was leading the team in pretty much every statistical category when it comes to advanced stats. It's a travesty he only averaged around 24 mpg. Must feel good for all the people saying those 2 were ready for a much bigger role last season.

Even though they had the least experience they were sharing the ball and making smart plays. Something that Fournier should learn from them.

Also for the people who are down on Mario and keep saying he can only shoot, he impacts the game in more ways than one. He was the 3rd most positive player when it comes to net rating. Just behind AG. The numbers also show we played better defense with him on the court last season. If that doesn't show he's not a liability on that end I don't know what does. He had great defensive numbers while being in the regular rotation at the start of this season as well. 2nd only behind Vuc.

Fournier on the other hand has nice stats but his defense is putrid and he doesn't make anyone better. He actually makes everyone around him worse. That's why people were complaining about him last season all the time. It wasn't some big conspiracy. Out of all players playing significant minutes last season he had the worst net rating. We actually had a positive net rating when he wasn't playing. He was that bad.

I'm tired of this too. You base your entire argument on NetRTg. No wonder you feel justified in making up nonsense about players.

I keep reading how you want Skiles back. Skiles said Evan was our best player last year. Do you think Skiles values NetRTG as much as you just did in that post?

So you're saying I shouldn't value the stats that say we suck with Fournier on the court? What's your solution, to play the guys who always happen to find themselves in the negative even more?
Is that you Vaughn?

You're arguments are much better though. Maybe we are losing all the time, maybe the numbers show we are better without Fournier but PPGzzzzzzzz.

Going 3-2 without Fournier was as accident as well. Just like season and a half of data saying we're better without Fournier.

Just look at Minny. They have 3 20 PPG scorers. 2 of them are very efficient and they still suck.

You are showing that you have no idea what you are talking about and have simply regressed into mindless complaining at this point. 3-2 without Fournier means nothing. The points you try to make are really bad. Again, two consecutive coaches have stated that Evan is our best wing player and needs the ball in his hands, but you pull up really terrible stat examples to prove a point that is simply not true.

Minny is a very young team. Do you expect them to compete for a title anytime soon? All you guys who want to tank may as well follow another team for 3 more years because young players don't win a lot of games. That's common knowledge.

[Dennis Reynolds]

Fournier most certainly wasn't out best wing player last season. Unless you're saying the only wings we had last season are Mario and Fournier.

And no, going 3-2 without Fournier is no coincidence. There's a good reason we have been better with him on the bench for the past season and a half. The moment we got to see our team without him we started playing better and the results show it. Keep telling yourself otherwise though.

Having a guy who makes no difference as your number 1 option is a joke.

[Mc-o]

Fournier most certainly wasn't out best wing player last season. Unless you're saying the only wings we had last season are Mario and Fournier.

And no, going 3-2 without Fournier is no coincidence. There's a good reason we have been better with him on the bench for the past season and a half. The moment we got to see our team without him we started playing better and the results show it. Keep telling yourself otherwise though.

Having a guy who makes no difference as your number 1 option is a joke.

We also have had a stretch where we went 5-0 with fournier. 5 game sample size is not useful. We did not look.better as a team we looked worst . im all for upgrading fournier but we have bigger issues elsewhere on the roster.

[Dennis Reynolds]

Fournier most certainly wasn't out best wing player last season. Unless you're saying the only wings we had last season are Mario and Fournier.

And no, going 3-2 without Fournier is no coincidence. There's a good reason we have been better with him on the bench for the past season and a half. The moment we got to see our team without him we started playing better and the results show it. Keep telling yourself otherwise though.

Having a guy who makes no difference as your number 1 option is a joke.

We also have had a stretch where we went 5-0 with fournier. 5 game sample size is not useful. We did not look.better as a team we looked worst . im all for upgrading fournier but we have bigger issues elsewhere on the roster.

I'm saying he makes no difference. Not saying we would magically get much better and turn into a playoff team if we were to get rid of him.

[Mc-o]

Fournier most certainly wasn't out best wing player last season. Unless you're saying the only wings we had last season are Mario and Fournier.

And no, going 3-2 without Fournier is no coincidence. There's a good reason we have been better with him on the bench for the past season and a half. The moment we got to see our team without him we started playing better and the results show it. Keep telling yourself otherwise though.

Having a guy who makes no difference as your number 1 option is a joke.

We also have had a stretch where we went 5-0 with fournier. 5 game sample size is not useful. We did not look.better as a team we looked worst . im all for upgrading fournier but we have bigger issues elsewhere on the roster.

I'm saying he makes no difference. Not saying we would magically get much better and turn into a playoff team if we were to get rid of him.

Unfortunatey none of our players are difference makers . maybe ibaka if he goes to a team like the raptors.

[Dennis Reynolds]

We also have had a stretch where we went 5-0 with fournier. 5 game sample size is not useful. We did not look.better as a team we looked worst . im all for upgrading fournier but we have bigger issues elsewhere on the roster.

I'm saying he makes no difference. Not saying we would magically get much better and turn into a playoff team if we were to get rid of him.

Unfortunatey none of our players are difference makers . maybe ibaka if he goes to a team like the raptors.

Well other players aren't our number 1 option nor they are getting paid that kind of money with the exception of Biyombo and phucking Jeff Green.

[Mc-o]

I'm saying he makes no difference. Not saying we would magically get much better and turn into a playoff team if we were to get rid of him.

Unfortunatey none of our players are difference makers . maybe ibaka if he goes to a team like the raptors.

Well other players aren't our number 1 options nor they are getting paid that kind of money with some excpetions.

Well fournier is getting paid role player money un der the new cba. He is our main option because offensively he is our best wing player. Now we. Are all hoping ag can get better but he isnt consostent enough yet but he has been getting more and more touches . its not fournier ur upset with its the front office who built a team with fournier as a number one offensive option lol

[Dennis Reynolds]

Unfortunatey none of our players are difference makers . maybe ibaka if he goes to a team like the raptors.

Well other players aren't our number 1 options nor they are getting paid that kind of money with some excpetions.

Well fournier is getting paid role player money un der the new cba. He is our main option because offensively he is our best wing player. Now we. Are all hoping ag can get better but he isnt consostent enough yet but he has been getting more and more touches . its not fournier ur upset with its the front office who built a team with fournier as a number one offensive option lol

I'm pissed at all of them. Never liked Fournier's game and can't believe there are people in this world who think having Fournier as your number 1 option is acceptable especially after going through a rebuild.

[Jameerthefear]

Well other players aren't our number 1 options nor they are getting paid that kind of money with some excpetions.

Well fournier is getting paid role player money un der the new cba. He is our main option because offensively he is our best wing player. Now we. Are all hoping ag can get better but he isnt consostent enough yet but he has been getting more and more touches . its not fournier ur upset with its the front office who built a team with fournier as a number one offensive option lol

I'm pissed at all of them. Never liked Fournier's game and can't believe there are people in this world who think having Fournier as your number 1 option is acceptable especially after going through a rebuild.

Why do you think people are okay with it? He's the best scorer on the team so he's taking the most shots. Do I wish there was a true 1st option on this team? Yes, everyone does, but this is the team Hennigan has built.

[PennytoShaq]

And no, going 3-2 without Fournier is no coincidence. There's a good reason we have been better with him on the bench for the past season and a half. The moment we got to see our team without him we started playing better and the results show it. Keep telling yourself otherwise though.

None of this is actually true. You can type it as many times as you want and it won't change the fact that you are wrong.

No one here is saying "YES!! Fournier is our #1 wing!" . I think people realize the team is being built to add the #1 at PG or SF and like how Evan would fit in that situation.

[Dennis Reynolds]

Well fournier is getting paid role player money un der the new cba. He is our main option because offensively he is our best wing player. Now we. Are all hoping ag can get better but he isnt consostent enough yet but he has been getting more and more touches . its not fournier ur upset with its the front office who built a team with fournier as a number one offensive option lol

I'm pissed at all of them. Never liked Fournier's game and can't believe there are people in this world who think having Fournier as your number 1 option is acceptable especially after going through a rebuild.

Why do you think people are okay with it? He's the best scorer on the team so he's taking the most shots. Do I wish there was a true 1st option on this team? Yes, everyone does, but this is the team Hennigan has built.

Because there's plenty of people who keep defending him. Fournier obviously doesn't work as the number 1 option. He also doesn't have much upside so what's the point?

Why did we go through a rebuild at all? So we could watch Fournier and Vucevic hoist up shots while our 4th pick gets benched for Jeff Green and our 5th pick never plays?

AG was just a garbage man in his first two season and Mario was drafted mostly cause of his offense and doesn't play cause of his defense. Do the idiots running our organization at least understand it's much easier to teach a player how to play defense than to develop offensive skills?

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw us feed Vuc yesterday even though he was 0-8. God forbid we try something different. It's not even just 1 game. His efficiency has been awful the whole season.

I can't stand watching Vuc and Fournier lead us to the lottery season after season and hearing it's not their fault. They obviously aren't good enough nor will they ever be so how about we try something different? Lavine was an upside pick who was a damn scrub in his rookie season and look at him now. He's still doesn't play any defense but they don't bench him every time he makes a mistake on a lottery team. I'm not saying our guys would develop the same way if given the same chance but since there's a small chance of that happening I would much rather try that instead of watching us fail to reach the playoffs once more doing the same damn thing that has gotten us nowhere the past few years. (Not exactly talking to you, just thinking out loud)

/rant

[pepe1991]

I'm pissed at all of them. Never liked Fournier's game and can't believe there are people in this world who think having Fournier as your number 1 option is acceptable especially after going through a rebuild.

Why do you think people are okay with it? He's the best scorer on the team so he's taking the most shots. Do I wish there was a true 1st option on this team? Yes, everyone does, but this is the team Hennigan has built.

Because there's plenty of people who keep defending him. Fournier obviously doesn't work as the number 1 option. He also doesn't have much upside so what's the point?

Why did we go through a rebuild at all? So we could watch Fournier and Vucevic hoist up shots while our 4th pick gets benched for Jeff Green and our 5th pick never plays?

AG was just a garbage man in his first two season and Mario was drafted mostly cause of his offense and doesn't play cause of his defense. Do the idiots running our organization at least understand it's much easier to teach a player how to play defense than to develop offensive skills?

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw us feed Vuc yesterday even though he was 0-8. God forbid we try something different. It's not even just 1 game. His efficiency has been awful the whole season.

I can't stand watching Vuc and Fournier lead us to the lottery season after season and hearing it's not their fault. They obviously aren't good enough nor will they ever be so how about we try something different? Lavine was an upside pick who was a damn scrub in his rookie season and look at him now. He's still doesn't play any defense but they don't bench him every time he makes a mistake on a lottery team. I'm not saying our guys would develop the same way if given the same chance but since there's a small chance of that happening I would much rather try that instead of watching us fail to reach the playoffs once more doing the same damn thing that has gotten us nowhere the past few years. (Not exactly talking to you, just thinking out loud)

/rant

Evan went from being super effective last year to to meh, 56% TS this year. It's still good but it's drop full 2% from last year. Last year he benefited so much from Oladipo dribble penetration kickouts. This year nobody can break defender 1 on 1 and attack rim.

Also Vučević and Evan buddyball is real thing. And real problem. They only look to pass to each other. And they are both bad defenders. Vučević tries more this year. Naturally, when you are by advanced stats 7th worst offensive big among 130 of them in the league, you should try something else. Evan is too slow, too soft and too weak to stop good SGs. We saw it in game vs Celtics when they beat us without Thomas. Bradley just took him 1 on 1 ,overpowered him on both ends of the floor and beat us by himself. Bradley is on contender 3rd to 4th option on offense. He would be by far best player on Magic roster.

This team is rebuilding for 4 years now, they are holding whole team down so they can "develop" 26 years Vučević who showed zero growth in his game since he was 23, Evan Fournier who simply doesn't have athletic gift to be anything more than solid third option on playoff team ( he is 4th offensive option on France national team behind Parker,Batum and Decolo!? ) and we play army of Jeff Greens, Jodie Meeks, DJ Augustins , players in their 30s only interested into $$ to have nice life after basketball who do nothing for team long term and short term they MAYBEEE give you 2,3 extra wins through a season.

Ofc that OKC wanted Oladipo over sign and trade Fournier. Good for them. Great scouting.

[Orlando11]

I'm pissed at all of them. Never liked Fournier's game and can't believe there are people in this world who think having Fournier as your number 1 option is acceptable especially after going through a rebuild.

Why do you think people are okay with it? He's the best scorer on the team so he's taking the most shots. Do I wish there was a true 1st option on this team? Yes, everyone does, but this is the team Hennigan has built.

Because there's plenty of people who keep defending him. Fournier obviously doesn't work as the number 1 option. He also doesn't have much upside so what's the point?

Why did we go through a rebuild at all? So we could watch Fournier and Vucevic hoist up shots while our 4th pick gets benched for Jeff Green and our 5th pick never plays?

AG was just a garbage man in his first two season and Mario was drafted mostly cause of his offense and doesn't play cause of his defense. Do the idiots running our organization at least understand it's much easier to teach a player how to play defense than to develop offensive skills?

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw us feed Vuc yesterday even though he was 0-8. God forbid we try something different. It's not even just 1 game. His efficiency has been awful the whole season.

I can't stand watching Vuc and Fournier lead us to the lottery season after season and hearing it's not their fault. They obviously aren't good enough nor will they ever be so how about we try something different? Lavine was an upside pick who was a damn scrub in his rookie season and look at him now. He's still doesn't play any defense but they don't bench him every time he makes a mistake on a lottery team. I'm not saying our guys would develop the same way if given the same chance but since there's a small chance of that happening I would much rather try that instead of watching us fail to reach the playoffs once more doing the same damn thing that has gotten us nowhere the past few years. (Not exactly talking to you, just thinking out loud)

/rant

I know I am new this to this forum, but damn man...if you watched Zach LaVine today you would laughed when you would have seen what he did the last 3 minute today. He was an absolute mess. Im sorry to tell you but his decision making is absolutely horrible.

[Orlando11]

I'm pissed at all of them. Never liked Fournier's game and can't believe there are people in this world who think having Fournier as your number 1 option is acceptable especially after going through a rebuild.

Why do you think people are okay with it? He's the best scorer on the team so he's taking the most shots. Do I wish there was a true 1st option on this team? Yes, everyone does, but this is the team Hennigan has built.

Because there's plenty of people who keep defending him. Fournier obviously doesn't work as the number 1 option. He also doesn't have much upside so what's the point?

Why did we go through a rebuild at all? So we could watch Fournier and Vucevic hoist up shots while our 4th pick gets benched for Jeff Green and our 5th pick never plays?

AG was just a garbage man in his first two season and Mario was drafted mostly cause of his offense and doesn't play cause of his defense. Do the idiots running our organization at least understand it's much easier to teach a player how to play defense than to develop offensive skills?

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw us feed Vuc yesterday even though he was 0-8. God forbid we try something different. It's not even just 1 game. His efficiency has been awful the whole season.

I can't stand watching Vuc and Fournier lead us to the lottery season after season and hearing it's not their fault. They obviously aren't good enough nor will they ever be so how about we try something different? Lavine was an upside pick who was a damn scrub in his rookie season and look at him now. He's still doesn't play any defense but they don't bench him every time he makes a mistake on a lottery team. I'm not saying our guys would develop the same way if given the same chance but since there's a small chance of that happening I would much rather try that instead of watching us fail to reach the playoffs once more doing the same damn thing that has gotten us nowhere the past few years. (Not exactly talking to you, just thinking out loud)

/rant

You need to chill. No one from what I have read has said that Fournier is a no. 1 option. The kid is a no. 3 at best period. But who in the hell is Frank Vogel supposed to give the ball to in a no. 1 option role. Gordon can't break down a defender yet...elfrid isn't consistent enough to merit being defended from 15-20 feet way...Ibaka can't take advantage of a guy like Sam Dekker.

You are blaming the wrong people...The Orlando magic are just not good enough period...I can see a future of Gordon, Payton, and Fournier developing...but to be honest that isn't good enough. We have some great complimentary players but no star.

[woosah]

Evan Fournier just turned 24 years old. Everything about him will get better as he matures on the court (decision making, shooting, strength). Basketball prime doesnt usually happen for most guys until 28. The guy is definitely not a no. 1 option but a long way from a finished product.

Actually what makes Fournier good is that he already is mature in his abilities and shooting, and is particularly crafty in going to the basket. He is selfish though and I feel thinks too highly of himself. He is also limited in creating his own shoot and athletic explosiveness. So no, he will not get much better I fear.

I agree that he is selfish on some occasions (or he just doesn't see the court that well). When it comes to creating his own shot, you are being too severe. He plays with a lot of guys that simply aren't good shooters save for Ibaka. Every team we go up against defenders are leaving their guys and clogging up lanes. Tough to create room for yourself when you got multiple defenders willing to leave their man and on focus in on Fournier. On a team with less spacing issues I think he would have an easier time creating.

Also, I have no idea how you can possibly say a player has essentially reached his potential by the age of 24 especially being a coach as yourself. The guy has room to grow. Don't understand how some of you guys don't put him in the same category as the other developing players.

Probably because he has been playing pro since 2009 and usually with that many years in, you have pretty much reached your ceiling. Euro leagues could equal college here so maybe he will grow but i kind of think he is what he is at this point. I hope i am wrong.