Game 42: Orlando Magic (17-24) @ Utah Jazz (25-16) - 9:00 PM ET

[woosah]

I only heard it on the way home from work, but i was puzzled why Meeks was shooting it so much. I thought I would log on here and see him getting trashed but you guys are saying Vogel drew up plays for him? ugh. I was yelling in the car, "Why am i hearing Meeks, Meeks, Meeks?" "I need to hear some Vooch or some Ibaka taking a shot, not Meeks!" Wasted a great peformance from the class of 2014.

[j-ragg]

I only heard it on the way home from work, but i was puzzled why Meeks was shooting it so much. I thought I would log on here and see him getting trashed but you guys are saying Vogel drew up plays for him? ugh. I was yelling in the car, "Why am i hearing Meeks, Meeks, Meeks?" "I need to hear some Vooch or some Ibaka taking a shot, not Meeks!" Wasted a great peformance from the class of 2014.

It didn't really seem that way in the flow of the game in my opinion. Meeks was passing the ball really well on the break. Gordon would've had less points for sure if certain others were handling the ball on the break.

Couple possessions late he came off screens and took threes that missed but they weren't really bad plays. It was pretty late so my memory could be off.

[woosah]

I only heard it on the way home from work, but i was puzzled why Meeks was shooting it so much. I thought I would log on here and see him getting trashed but you guys are saying Vogel drew up plays for him? ugh. I was yelling in the car, "Why am i hearing Meeks, Meeks, Meeks?" "I need to hear some Vooch or some Ibaka taking a shot, not Meeks!" Wasted a great peformance from the class of 2014.

It didn't really seem that way in the flow of the game in my opinion. Meeks was passing the ball really well on the break. Gordon would've had less points for sure if certain others were handling the ball on the break.

Couple possessions late he came off screens and took threes that missed but they weren't really bad plays. It was pretty late so my memory could be off.

Oh yeah, i am talking about the last 3 minutes of the game. Meeks missed 4 3's i think and the only shot we made was Serge for 2. I didn't understand it.

[OrlandO]

It's neither. When you play sports you don't always know how hurt you are until during game time. It's a whole new gear and it's not like practice. He was probably feeling good in shootaround and practices and then felt it during games, but powered through it until it became obvious that he was not going to be effective enough.

No one is a moron or selfish. That's not really how it works.

I like how you tell me it's neither and then make up your own reasoning as if it's fact. It doesn't take five games to realize you're compensating and it's not getting better.... not when you're obviously playing like crap. You don't mess with foot injuries that are obviously limiting you, period.

I am not making anything up. You just made assumptions that aren't true. A lot of pro athletes power through injuries because they want to play.

If you watched the early games when he returned, they showed him rewrapping his foot on the bench. It's not like no one was aware of the situation and he lied or they were morons like you clearly stated.

Except it was reported he couldn't put full weight on his foot for MULTIPLE games. This isn't the playoffs... you don't play in that condition. It's a no-brainer. So either he stubbornly misled staff about the severity of the pain or the staff didn't do their job and let him continue playing on a flat tire. I would place my bet on the former. We're talking about a guy who has boasted in the past about playing through injuries and not missing a single game since he was 15 or 16 years old.

[Nemesis21]

#Tank4Top5Pick

[JF5]

With each game that passes, it is starting to become very clear to me why Vogel got canned with the Pacers. Our roster definitely has a ton of warts but I really feel Frank is oblivious to his own mistakes as a head coach and has trouble adapting to in game situations. It's even more glaring now that he does not have Paul George to bail him out.

The officiating was bad in the 2nd half but that 2nd quarter did us in. We had a chance to really put the Jazz away and he employed an all bench lineup with players who do not mesh well at all. Chemistry does take time to build but figuring out your best rotations should not be taking this long.

That decision making isn't going to get better either. Search twitter and you will find an absurd amount of pacers fans making the same complaints about his over-confidence in bench players over the years - riding them too long, playing them against opposing starters, etc. I don't think he can help it... he's too much of an optimist and believes in every single player on his roster.

Yeah just went through the tweets on when they were playing the Raptors and he was getting killed on there. He reacts too late in terms of managing the game. It's nice that he is an optimist and has a high level of confidence in his coaching ability but some humility would serve him great. To allow your bench to lose a 15 point lead in this game that quickly is asinine.

I'm still peeved that we are not playing the style he promised we were going to play when he was initially hired. He's the coach and all I can do is hope that he gets better and improve this team in the coming years but I will not stop criticizing him when warranted.

I think this is pretty ridiculous...

Vogel's overconfidence developed Paul George into a perennial star and turned guys like Stephenson and Hibbert into all-star quality players when they easily would've just been rotation players anywhere else. The same guy who got all those guys to back to back Eastern conference finals and had them playing tough against a LeBron/Wade/Bosh squad. Fast forward now, Aaron Gordon would've been forced back to PF and Hezonja would most likely not touch the court if it were a guy like Skiles as coach.

Your coach HAS to show confidence in his guys whether if they're rotation bench players or star guys... If not, then how are they going to grow and succeed?

This roster clearly isn't that good and is missing one of their key starters. So them being able to hang tough with one of the Western Conference best all the way to the end of the game is a major testament to Vogel being able to have this team in a position to win.

[Bensational]

People say Vogel had Paul George carry his team, and he was certainly the reason they were an ECF team, but don't forget he took a team without Paul George to the playoffs when PG was injured all season. So he does know how to get role players to overachieve.

[Def Swami]

I like how you tell me it's neither and then make up your own reasoning as if it's fact. It doesn't take five games to realize you're compensating and it's not getting better.... not when you're obviously playing like crap. You don't mess with foot injuries that are obviously limiting you, period.

I am not making anything up. You just made assumptions that aren't true. A lot of pro athletes power through injuries because they want to play.

If you watched the early games when he returned, they showed him rewrapping his foot on the bench. It's not like no one was aware of the situation and he lied or they were morons like you clearly stated.

Except it was reported he couldn't put full weight on his foot for MULTIPLE games. This isn't the playoffs... you don't play in that condition. It's a no-brainer. So either he stubbornly misled staff about the severity of the pain or the staff didn't do their job and let him continue playing on a flat tire. I would place my bet on the former. We're talking about a guy who has boasted in the past about playing through injuries and not missing a single game since he was 15 or 16 years old.

To add, I do feel like the Magic have brought players back sooner this season than they have in years past. I don't think either Biyombo or Ibaka are 100%. Both elite shot blockers having shoulder injuries is a bit of hysterical misfortune. Seems like Ibaka isn't contesting as at the rim as he was before the injury and I have a feeling Biyombo's shoulder injury never fully healed; he missed only 1 game for his shoulder strain. I wonder if both would even be playing on a team that had more margin for error.

[Mc-o]

That decision making isn't going to get better either. Search twitter and you will find an absurd amount of pacers fans making the same complaints about his over-confidence in bench players over the years - riding them too long, playing them against opposing starters, etc. I don't think he can help it... he's too much of an optimist and believes in every single player on his roster.

Yeah just went through the tweets on when they were playing the Raptors and he was getting killed on there. He reacts too late in terms of managing the game. It's nice that he is an optimist and has a high level of confidence in his coaching ability but some humility would serve him great. To allow your bench to lose a 15 point lead in this game that quickly is asinine.

I'm still peeved that we are not playing the style he promised we were going to play when he was initially hired. He's the coach and all I can do is hope that he gets better and improve this team in the coming years but I will not stop criticizing him when warranted.

I think this is pretty ridiculous...

Vogel's overconfidence developed Paul George into a perennial star and turned guys like Stephenson and Hibbert into all-star quality players when they easily would've just been rotation players anywhere else. The same guy who got all those guys to back to back Eastern conference finals and had them playing tough against a LeBron/Wade/Bosh squad. Fast forward now, Aaron Gordon would've been forced back to PF and Hezonja would most likely not touch the court if it were a guy like Skiles as coach.

Your coach HAS to show confidence in his guys whether if they're rotation bench players or star guys... If not, then how are they going to grow and succeed?

This roster clearly isn't that good and is missing one of their key starters. So them being able to hang tough with one of the Western Conference best all the way to the end of the game is a major testament to Vogel being able to have this team in a position to win.

not saying Vogel is a bad coach but to say that he plays Mario more than skiles is just straight up wrong ! Mario hasn't got to play this year . Except for garbage minutes her and there ! Last year Mario was averaging 3x the amount of minutes ! The entire te performed better last year . Now is the reason
Because of players or coaching or a combo of both ? I don't know but I hope the rest of the season we just transition into letting ag and ep get more usage . And hopefully Mario can get Jeff greens minutes

[JF5]

not saying Vogel is a bad coach but to say that he plays Mario more than skiles is just straight up wrong ! Mario hasn't got to play this year . Except for garbage minutes her and there ! Last year Mario was averaging 3x the amount of minutes ! The entire te performed better last year . Now is the reason
Because of players or coaching or a combo of both ? I don't know but I hope the rest of the season we just transition into letting ag and ep get more usage . And hopefully Mario can get Jeff greens minutes

I'm fairly certain by the way Skiles has treated young players, this years Hezonja would've never gotten back into the rotation after the first few weeks of the season (given his prior treatment of young players). That's my point... Is it because of the regime change he's playing so poorly? who knows... But through recent history it doesn't seem far fetched when it comes to Skiles.

My thing is that Vogel has a history of developing players and making them a lot better. Frustration with him now given the play of the young guys (outside of Hezonja) should be giving him a lot of praise. Granted he will make mistakes that shouldn't be the primary focus with him since we all know this team isn't going anywhere the next few seasons. And if it was someone that wasn't on Vogel's level when it comes to coaching (especially with this roster) this team would be a ALOT worse.

[OrlandO]

People say Vogel had Paul George carry his team, and he was certainly the reason they were an ECF team, but don't forget he took a team without Paul George to the playoffs when PG was injured all season. So he does know how to get role players to overachieve.

That team didn't make the playoffs. They won 38 games and finished 9th in the east. Do you feel Skiles overachieved last season? Because I'd say 35 wins with a really young, inexperienced team with no star in year 1 is probably more difficult to achieve than 38 wins with a bunch of vets you're familiar with. I don't think Vogel would have won 35 games with last year's team. I think Vogel is better for developing Elf/AG, but as far as coaching this team in general I think he's done a poor job up to this point. Maybe it will change with time, but so far I'm more annoyed than impressed.

[Bensational]

People say Vogel had Paul George carry his team, and he was certainly the reason they were an ECF team, but don't forget he took a team without Paul George to the playoffs when PG was injured all season. So he does know how to get role players to overachieve.

That team didn't make the playoffs. They won 38 games and finished 9th in the east. Do you feel Skiles overachieved last season? Because I'd say 35 wins with a really young, inexperienced team with no star in year 1 is probably more difficult to achieve than 38 wins with a bunch of vets you're familiar with. I don't think Vogel would have won 35 games with last year's team. I think Vogel is better for developing Elf/AG, but as far as coaching this team in general I think he's done a poor job up to this point. Maybe it will change with time, but so far I'm more annoyed than impressed.

Oh whoops, my bad! I completely misremembered that.

I dunno if I'd say Skiles overachieved. I think he certainly did to start the season, but I also think he had a more developed and offensively potent and consistent team than what we have this season. Once Harris was traded and Gordon joined the starting lineup his record plummeted (although he'd reportedly quit on the team at that point).

I don't think Vogel is doing any better than Skiles in terms of installing a game plan that generates wins. I think he's definitely got much better results out of AG and Payton though, and that's the priority for me. Once they're strong enough to carry us, the team should naturally start finding more wins and a better rhythm.

[OrlandO]

People say Vogel had Paul George carry his team, and he was certainly the reason they were an ECF team, but don't forget he took a team without Paul George to the playoffs when PG was injured all season. So he does know how to get role players to overachieve.

That team didn't make the playoffs. They won 38 games and finished 9th in the east. Do you feel Skiles overachieved last season? Because I'd say 35 wins with a really young, inexperienced team with no star in year 1 is probably more difficult to achieve than 38 wins with a bunch of vets you're familiar with. I don't think Vogel would have won 35 games with last year's team. I think Vogel is better for developing Elf/AG, but as far as coaching this team in general I think he's done a poor job up to this point. Maybe it will change with time, but so far I'm more annoyed than impressed.

Oh whoops, my bad! I completely misremembered that.

I dunno if I'd say Skiles overachieved. I think he certainly did to start the season, but I also think he had a more developed and offensively potent and consistent team than what we have this season. Once Harris was traded and Gordon joined the starting lineup his record plummeted (although he'd reportedly quit on the team at that point).

I don't think Vogel is doing any better than Skiles in terms of installing a game plan that generates wins. I think he's definitely got much better results out of AG and Payton though, and that's the priority for me. Once they're strong enough to carry us, the team should naturally start finding more wins and a better rhythm.

Development is a priority, but winning more games is a priority as well. Let's say we start winning consistently in the 2nd half of the season after reverting back to the original lineup and finally staggering subs more, but finish 9th in the east.... will you credit Vogel for turning the season around or discredit him for taking so long to adjust and possibly missing the playoffs as a result?

[Bensational]

That team didn't make the playoffs. They won 38 games and finished 9th in the east. Do you feel Skiles overachieved last season? Because I'd say 35 wins with a really young, inexperienced team with no star in year 1 is probably more difficult to achieve than 38 wins with a bunch of vets you're familiar with. I don't think Vogel would have won 35 games with last year's team. I think Vogel is better for developing Elf/AG, but as far as coaching this team in general I think he's done a poor job up to this point. Maybe it will change with time, but so far I'm more annoyed than impressed.

Oh whoops, my bad! I completely misremembered that.

I dunno if I'd say Skiles overachieved. I think he certainly did to start the season, but I also think he had a more developed and offensively potent and consistent team than what we have this season. Once Harris was traded and Gordon joined the starting lineup his record plummeted (although he'd reportedly quit on the team at that point).

I don't think Vogel is doing any better than Skiles in terms of installing a game plan that generates wins. I think he's definitely got much better results out of AG and Payton though, and that's the priority for me. Once they're strong enough to carry us, the team should naturally start finding more wins and a better rhythm.

Development is a priority, but winning more games is a priority as well. Let's say we start winning consistently in the 2nd half of the season after reverting back to the original lineup and finally staggering subs more, but finish 9th in the east.... will you credit Vogel for turning the season around or discredit him for taking so long to adjust and possibly missing the playoffs as a result?

To be honest whatever my position at that time I probably won't crticise him. Be disappointed, sure, but I wouldn't be as critical of him as I would've been with Skiles. But I've admitted that double standard before. I'm aware of it. I don't mind people criticising Vogel either (constructively, that is). We were a .500 team with Vuc off the bench and we've yet to hit that mark since he returned to the starters, so I'm not ready to crucify him for that. (I do agree we look better though). But Vogel has certainly done some weird things such as how much he rides Green, and how long he rides bad subs and lineups.

[BadMofoPimp]

I had thought with the rest of most here that Vogel was a superior coach over Skiles. But, it appears now that Skiles gets his teams to over-achieve while Vogel's team has underachieved. Now, both coaches only had one year, so there are no other excuses. Skiles had more youth as his players were a year younger under Skiles. Vogel has the luxury of more experienced players including a former all NBA Defensive specialist. Yet, Skiles had a better defense with Illy, Vooch and AG. I am starting to think that Skiles was the better coach but fans just didn't like a coach who didn't baby his players because he yelled too much. I am still hoping Vogel proves me wrong and develops a winning team over the next few years, but year one has been a disaster thus far.

[BadMofoPimp]

Oh whoops, my bad! I completely misremembered that.

I dunno if I'd say Skiles overachieved. I think he certainly did to start the season, but I also think he had a more developed and offensively potent and consistent team than what we have this season. Once Harris was traded and Gordon joined the starting lineup his record plummeted (although he'd reportedly quit on the team at that point).

I don't think Vogel is doing any better than Skiles in terms of installing a game plan that generates wins. I think he's definitely got much better results out of AG and Payton though, and that's the priority for me. Once they're strong enough to carry us, the team should naturally start finding more wins and a better rhythm.

Development is a priority, but winning more games is a priority as well. Let's say we start winning consistently in the 2nd half of the season after reverting back to the original lineup and finally staggering subs more, but finish 9th in the east.... will you credit Vogel for turning the season around or discredit him for taking so long to adjust and possibly missing the playoffs as a result?

To be honest whatever my position at that time I probably won't crticise him. Be disappointed, sure, but I wouldn't be as critical of him as I would've been with Skiles. But I've admitted that double standard before. I'm aware of it. I don't mind people criticising Vogel either (constructively, that is). We were a .500 team with Vuc off the bench and we've yet to hit that mark since he returned to the starters, so I'm not ready to crucify him for that. (I do agree we look better though). But Vogel has certainly done some weird things such as how much he rides Green, and how long he rides bad subs and lineups.

Magic had lost 3 in a row and won 1 out of the last 6 with Biz starting. They were far from a .500 team. Changes had to be made. Now, you are saying that because Vooch has been starting for the past 3 games, they are no longer a .500 team anymore? That is a small sample size to back up your claim. Biz was hurting the team more than helping.

[Optimus_Steel]

Our bench looks bad because we didn't play Mario enough and Evan was out. Meeks moves the ball, but he is not a starting SG. If you had him next to Mario off the bench, I think we are better. Not great, but better than whatever that was tonight.

Mario was part of the reason Utah went on 12-0 run to start the 2nd quarter.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

Yes - part. 1/5th to be exact.

Im not putting it all on him but he was part of the reason Utah went off in those 3 or 4 mins. Made several mistakes. In the 2nd half Vogel did not put him back and that bench unit was able to thread water until the starters returned in the 4th. I want him to do well but you got do some positives things in the minutes you get, and if that unit looks better without him those things are noticable. I hope he keeps getting some minutes in this stretch of games but if he comes in and looks bad you gotta roll someone else.

Also seems to be Biz is playing injured. He always plays hard regardless of whats going on.

[Bensational]

Development is a priority, but winning more games is a priority as well. Let's say we start winning consistently in the 2nd half of the season after reverting back to the original lineup and finally staggering subs more, but finish 9th in the east.... will you credit Vogel for turning the season around or discredit him for taking so long to adjust and possibly missing the playoffs as a result?

To be honest whatever my position at that time I probably won't crticise him. Be disappointed, sure, but I wouldn't be as critical of him as I would've been with Skiles. But I've admitted that double standard before. I'm aware of it. I don't mind people criticising Vogel either (constructively, that is). We were a .500 team with Vuc off the bench and we've yet to hit that mark since he returned to the starters, so I'm not ready to crucify him for that. (I do agree we look better though). But Vogel has certainly done some weird things such as how much he rides Green, and how long he rides bad subs and lineups.

Magic had lost 3 in a row and won 1 out of the last 6 with Biz starting. They were far from a .500 team. Changes had to be made. Now, you are saying that because Vooch has been starting for the past 3 games, they are no longer a .500 team anymore? That is a small sample size to back up your claim. Biz was hurting the team more than helping.

We're 7-12 this season with Vuc starting (he started the season as our starter). We're 9-11 with him off the bench. 1-2 when he doesn't play at all. That's just the facts of the matter. I already said that I agree we look better with him in the SL.

[BadMofoPimp]

To be honest whatever my position at that time I probably won't crticise him. Be disappointed, sure, but I wouldn't be as critical of him as I would've been with Skiles. But I've admitted that double standard before. I'm aware of it. I don't mind people criticising Vogel either (constructively, that is). We were a .500 team with Vuc off the bench and we've yet to hit that mark since he returned to the starters, so I'm not ready to crucify him for that. (I do agree we look better though). But Vogel has certainly done some weird things such as how much he rides Green, and how long he rides bad subs and lineups.

Magic had lost 3 in a row and won 1 out of the last 6 with Biz starting. They were far from a .500 team. Changes had to be made. Now, you are saying that because Vooch has been starting for the past 3 games, they are no longer a .500 team anymore? That is a small sample size to back up your claim. Biz was hurting the team more than helping.

We're 7-12 this season with Vuc starting (he started the season as our starter). We're 9-11 with him off the bench. 1-2 when he doesn't play at all. That's just the facts of the matter. I already said that I agree we look better with him in the SL.

Well, after the Magic won 1 out of 7 and were on a 4 game losing streak, Vogel thought otherwise.

[Bensational]

Magic had lost 3 in a row and won 1 out of the last 6 with Biz starting. They were far from a .500 team. Changes had to be made. Now, you are saying that because Vooch has been starting for the past 3 games, they are no longer a .500 team anymore? That is a small sample size to back up your claim. Biz was hurting the team more than helping.

We're 7-12 this season with Vuc starting (he started the season as our starter). We're 9-11 with him off the bench. 1-2 when he doesn't play at all. That's just the facts of the matter. I already said that I agree we look better with him in the SL.

Well, after the Magic won 1 out of 7 and were on a 4 game losing streak, Vogel thought otherwise.

I don't know what you're issue is here? I haven't said I disagreed with the move, and besides that, Vuc was still getting a significant amount of minutes off the bench. I think the starting lineup has looked better with him and Meeks in, showing better ball movement and defense.

But I do see the hypocrisy in your own words, though. A 3 game losing streak with Biz as starter (not the 4 games you tried to claim) is justification for a change, but a 1-2 record with Vuc is too small a sample size to judge?

Again, I like the move, I'm happy with the move, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make short of picking a fight.