Melvinlocker wrote:fendilim wrote:You're right, in today's game those players can play PF, when you play small ball. Basically, PG to SG, SG to SF, SF to PF, PF to C. SFs play PFs now on small ball system. But PFs don't move to SF at all.
Of all the players you mentioned, all of them actually started out as an SF. Sorry, but Gordon's skillset just simply doesn't suggest he can play SF, atm. But he thinks he can.
Those are valid points.
I guess where we differ is what makes a small forward a good small forward and what are the requisite skills that make one great. I think in order for us to go any further into a discussion about Gordon's potential, we both need to establish what the baseline skills are for a successful SF and what is it that that Gordon lacks to become a successful SF and are those skills going to be improved upon. For a good start on the statistical front I recommend, looking at Ed Wieland's article on Small Forwards and how their college stats can indicate the spectrum of their potential and their playing style. Here is the Article he wrote specifically about Gordon and why he could be a top tier SF prospect:
http://hoopsanalyst.com/?p=1257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now late stake a moment to see what a successful Small Forward looks like. I consider the ultimate success fora player is to be an all star caliber player at some point in their career and to win a championship. That criteria narrows down the list quite a bit. Let's start with championship criteria. Here is a list of all the SF's who have won a championship since 1980:
Kawhi Leonard
LeBron/Shane Battier
Shawn Marion
Ron Artest
Trevor Ariza
Paul Pierce
Bruce Bowen
James Posey
Tayshaun Prince
Rick Fox
Sean Elliot
Scottie Pippen
Mark Aguirre
James Worthy
Larry Bird
Julius Erving
I would say that the common threads here are size (in order of importance: standing reach, wingspan and height), motor, athletic ability and versatility on both ends of the court. The two outliers among these players are obviously Larry Bird and Paul Pierce because of their shooting ability. Other than that, I'd argue that successful Small Forwards haven't had to be great shooters, but that they needed the aforementioned traits to succeed (that's hard for me to say because I love players who can shoot). If they can shoot like Bird and Pierce, then that is another sticker on their vest, but it is largely irrelevant when discussing a players potential (I have a few, not so sophisticated theories as to why this is true).
Now let's separate the role players away from the all star caliber players and see how Gordon might stack up (I don't think it is hard for even pessimistic fans to see him becoming a player of Trevor Ariza's caliber. We did draft him fourth so I think it is fair for us to compare him against the best. I'll exclude Larry Bird and Pierce for now because of they are outliers who heavily relied on the the jump shot and weren't as toolsy on the defensive end (not saying they were bad, just played a different style)This might also be a good time to mention that Gordon shot 60 percent from 3 in February and 42.9 percent in March which was a vast improvement from his numbers early on in the season.
Scottie Pippen
LeBron James
Shawn Marion
James Worthy
Ron Artest
Mark Aguirre
James Worthy
Julius Irving
Kahwi Leonard
None of these players were good shooters in college or high school (check the stats if you don't believe me), everyone with in the measurements database had a standing reach above 8'9" and a wingspan north of 6'11" (which are pretty close to Gordon's measurements, ironically). I would be willing to put my neck on the line and say that is probably true of this entire list of players.
None of them were great jump shooters, all had a great motor, great athletic ability and versatility on both sides of the court. I'm not saying Gordon is going to become one of these players, but in will say that he has a chance to become one if he works hard and is put in a good situation.
All relevant statistical indicators, measurement based evaluations and the eye test tell me he has the makings of a successful SF. However, he grades our pretty poorly for a championship big man and I'd rather not waste his time our ours trying to force him into becoming one. If you want me to explain my view on that I'd be more than happy to do so.
If you have any hard evidence to convince me otherwise, I am all ears.
