The Case Against Frank Vogel

[darthmerrick]

I'm conflicted on Vogel. The injuries aren't his fault, but we also know he can't coach his way out of a paper bag.

So do we let him finish out the year and get a high draft pick, or do we fire him now -- and than go with an interim coach the rest of the year and play the young guys.

[craig01]

Jmo, but with all of the roster changes and injuries that have taken place it would seem prudent to just let this miserable season ride itself out.

I'm not impressed with Vogel up to now, but it would not be fair to pass judgment on his performance with having an incomplete and broken roster.

[OrlandoDream]

Vogel is far from perfect. His rotations and substitution alone make me miss Brian Hill sometimes but let's be real. Not even Pop himself could come in and squeeze a win out of this garbage roster. Also the fact that ALL our starters are injured and out just tells me more and more to embrace the tank! I don't consider Elfrid a starter. These are his last game in Orlando and I see the new FO putting a big emphasis on upgrading our PG rotation through trades or draft.

[fendilim]

It would be really difficult to judge Voge this season.

I do think he has to play the youth more. With the season going nowhere.

[Last Guardian]

I was under the impression he was a great player development coach. Really, he's just a motivational coach who doesn't know x's and o's. He doesn't adjust, he plays some horrid lineups. And as a motivational coach..he can't get his team to play hard. He doesn't really have a lot going for him.

You may get dealt a crappy hand and not have a lot of talent, but you can make the best of what you've got. That said, its not so bad, we may be the worst team this year and get the #1 pick.

[Skin]

Give me a coach that wants to develop our real assets. Gordon and Isaac. That's all that matters.

Vogel is obviously not interested in doing that. He wants to "win as a team" and he's actually delusional enough to think that this team can do that. Fire his ass.

[UCFJayBird]

I was under the impression he was a great player development coach. Really, he's just a motivational coach who doesn't know x's and o's. He doesn't adjust, he plays some horrid lineups. And as a motivational coach..he can't get his team to play hard. He doesn't really have a lot going for him.

You may get dealt a crappy hand and not have a lot of talent, but you can make the best of what you've got. That said, its not so bad, we may be the worst team this year and get the #1 pick.

To be fair Gordon is having his breakout year, Elfrid's percentages are up (except FTs), and Mario has actually been productive this month.

So in terms of player development not sure he's not doing it.

Put me in the camp that the talent just isn't there on this team, or that the mix of players is just wrong. I'd rather trade Vooch and Evan before firing another coach.

[IllMagic04]

I was under the impression he was a great player development coach. Really, he's just a motivational coach who doesn't know x's and o's. He doesn't adjust, he plays some horrid lineups. And as a motivational coach..he can't get his team to play hard. He doesn't really have a lot going for him.

You may get dealt a crappy hand and not have a lot of talent, but you can make the best of what you've got. That said, its not so bad, we may be the worst team this year and get the #1 pick.

To be fair Gordon is having his breakout year, Elfrid's percentages are up (except FTs), and Mario has actually been productive this month.

So in terms of player development not sure he's not doing it.

Put me in the camp that the talent just isn't there on this team, or that the mix of players is just wrong. I'd rather trade Vooch and Evan before firing another coach.

Right. Honestly I thought Issac might not even get time this year cause of Vogels win now attitude. But he got plenty of PT before the injury. I think he wants to develop as long as he sees the potential.. That said I'm not sure if Vogel is the right coach for this team going forward.

[ChosenSavior]

Give me a coach that wants to develop our real assets. Gordon and Isaac. That's all that matters.

Vogel is obviously not interested in doing that. He wants to "win as a team" and he's actually delusional enough to think that this team can do that. Fire his ass.

This.

It's Chad Forcier's time to shine. I'm ready.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Give me a coach that wants to develop our real assets. Gordon and Isaac. That's all that matters.

Vogel is obviously not interested in doing that. He wants to "win as a team" and he's actually delusional enough to think that this team can do that. Fire his ass.

This.

It's Chad Forcier's time to shine. I'm ready.

Its funny to see people complaining about the very things I brought up when we hired him, mainly the lack of offensive creativity. Amazing.

Now they want a guy to develop talent, before they wanted a player friendly coach. As i stated before he left, when we were comparing both coaches, Skiles never had elite talent so he had to be creative and adjust accordingly which Vogel has been unable or unwilling to do.Thats what made Skiles so good at taking young teams and turn them into winners. Its just sad that soft players couldn't handle his tough coaching style including ours. Hell, it looks like they cant handle Vogel and he's supposed to be "player friendly"

Hes overrated but I dont want to fire him now because the players tend to play harder (you know the way they're supposed to play if they haven't tuned out their coach) after a coach is fired, and I don't want meaningless wins.

[Furinkazan]

Watch on YouTube

we need this guy as a coach

you gotta blitz them ...

Watch on YouTube

[VFX]

I wasn’t against Vogel until last night. I always take the coaches side on rotations because they see WAY more than fans will in practices. Also, it’s not like he has talent to work with.

That being said, I’m officially on the bandwagon in getting rid of Vogel. Whether it’s because of Martins, or by his own doing, he has played older players at the expense of the younger for pointless wins.

He had only up until recently given Mario any kind of minutes. Mario has been steadily improving with playing time and could have possibly been held back with his minutes restriction earlier.

Although people like to write Biz off entirely, Im closely watching what he can do as a starter after last nights performance. He is never going to wow anyone on offense, but he impacts games defensively when he gets in rhythm.

Lastly, Isaac should not have played last night if he was so quick to be re-injured. That’s either on Vogel, the medical staff, or Isaac is made of glass. I’m guessing it’s the former. Regardless, Vogel has some share of the fault in that assessment.

The fact that it’s taken this long for Vogel to make these rotational adjustments (because of injuries) has me questioning his leadership.

[Skin]

Give me a coach that wants to develop our real assets. Gordon and Isaac. That's all that matters.

Vogel is obviously not interested in doing that. He wants to "win as a team" and he's actually delusional enough to think that this team can do that. Fire his ass.

This.

It's Chad Forcier's time to shine. I'm ready.

I'm down for that.

[Skin]

Give me a coach that wants to develop our real assets. Gordon and Isaac. That's all that matters.

Vogel is obviously not interested in doing that. He wants to "win as a team" and he's actually delusional enough to think that this team can do that. Fire his ass.

This.

It's Chad Forcier's time to shine. I'm ready.

Its funny to see people complaining about the very things I brought up when we hired him, mainly the lack of offensive creativity. Amazing.

Now they want a guy to develop talent, before they wanted a player friendly coach. As i stated before he left, when we were comparing both coaches, Skiles never had elite talent so he had to be creative and adjust accordingly which Vogel has been unable or unwilling to do.Thats what made Skiles so good at taking young teams and turn them into winners. Its just sad that soft players couldn't handle his tough coaching style including ours. Hell, it looks like they cant handle Vogel and he's supposed to be "player friendly"

Hes overrated but I dont want to fire him now because the players tend to play harder (you know the way they're supposed to play if they haven't tuned out their coach) after a coach is fired, and I don't want meaningless wins.

Meh. Skiles favored vets over development just as bad if not worse. That was exactly his thing. Turning bad young teams to fringe playoff teams by using vets instead of taking the time to develop young players. ...and he never did anything in the playoffs because he never developed his vets into stars. AG and Mario were nightly bench fodder.

I've soured on Vogel because he's not interested in development either. These coaches just want to win and that's not our most important goal right now. My favorite coach since the Dwightmare has been Jacque Vaughn because he was fully committed to developing young players. But people here hated him because he lost too much. Go figure.

[magicman112]

I haven't been one to blame Vogel because this roster is a mess even Phil Jackson or Pop would have to really work hard to get anything out of it. But we might have to move on from him just for the sake of having a fresh start.

[Furinkazan]

I haven't been one to blame Vogel because this roster is a mess even Phil Jackson or Pop would have to really work hard to get anything out of it. But we might have to move on from him just for the sake of having a fresh start.

he was the one helping to construct it RH said he consulted moves with Vogel surely there is some blame on his part too

[fendilim]

This.

It's Chad Forcier's time to shine. I'm ready.

Its funny to see people complaining about the very things I brought up when we hired him, mainly the lack of offensive creativity. Amazing.

Now they want a guy to develop talent, before they wanted a player friendly coach. As i stated before he left, when we were comparing both coaches, Skiles never had elite talent so he had to be creative and adjust accordingly which Vogel has been unable or unwilling to do.Thats what made Skiles so good at taking young teams and turn them into winners. Its just sad that soft players couldn't handle his tough coaching style including ours. Hell, it looks like they cant handle Vogel and he's supposed to be "player friendly"

Hes overrated but I dont want to fire him now because the players tend to play harder (you know the way they're supposed to play if they haven't tuned out their coach) after a coach is fired, and I don't want meaningless wins.

Meh. Skiles favored vets over development just as bad if not worse. That was exactly his thing. Turning bad young teams to fringe playoff teams by using vets instead of taking the time to develop young players. ...and he never did anything in the playoffs because he never developed his vets into stars. AG and Mario were nightly bench fodder.

I've soured on Vogel because he's not interested in development either. These coaches just want to win and that's not our most important goal right now. My favorite coach since the Dwightmare has been Jacque Vaughn because he was fully committed to developing young players. But people here hated him because he lost too much. Go figure.

Tbh, i blame skiles’shortcomings more on management than Skiles himself. It was clear that he was coming in mandated to make the playoffs.

Thats why we had vaughn fired too, because his last year, we werent even close.

Also about Mario, Skiles actually utilized Mario well. And even Mario talked highly of Scott planning big things for him for his second season only to be surprised that Skiles resigned.

Also, other than mario, he played almost everyone of our young players the most.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2016.html

Top 6 in mpg on that team were vic, ola, tobias, vuc, fournier and ag.

[pepe1991]

Its funny to see people complaining about the very things I brought up when we hired him, mainly the lack of offensive creativity. Amazing.

Now they want a guy to develop talent, before they wanted a player friendly coach. As i stated before he left, when we were comparing both coaches, Skiles never had elite talent so he had to be creative and adjust accordingly which Vogel has been unable or unwilling to do.Thats what made Skiles so good at taking young teams and turn them into winners. Its just sad that soft players couldn't handle his tough coaching style including ours. Hell, it looks like they cant handle Vogel and he's supposed to be "player friendly"

Hes overrated but I dont want to fire him now because the players tend to play harder (you know the way they're supposed to play if they haven't tuned out their coach) after a coach is fired, and I don't want meaningless wins.

Meh. Skiles favored vets over development just as bad if not worse. That was exactly his thing. Turning bad young teams to fringe playoff teams by using vets instead of taking the time to develop young players. ...and he never did anything in the playoffs because he never developed his vets into stars. AG and Mario were nightly bench fodder.

I've soured on Vogel because he's not interested in development either. These coaches just want to win and that's not our most important goal right now. My favorite coach since the Dwightmare has been Jacque Vaughn because he was fully committed to developing young players. But people here hated him because he lost too much. Go figure.

Tbh, i blame skiles’shortcomings more on management than Skiles himself. It was clear that he was coming in mandated to make the playoffs.

Thats why we had vaughn fired too, because his last year, we werent even close.

Also about Mario, Skiles actually utilized Mario well. And even Mario talked highly of Scott planning big things for him for his second season only to be surprised that Skiles resigned.

Also, other than mario, he played almost everyone of our young players the most.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2016.html

Top 6 in mpg on that team were vic, ola, tobias, vuc, fournier and ag.

He was kind a forced to play them. Only 3 players were older than 29 . Among them, Frye got traded, CJ Watson was always hurt and Smith played a lot.

[BadMofoPimp]

Meh. Skiles favored vets over development just as bad if not worse. That was exactly his thing. Turning bad young teams to fringe playoff teams by using vets instead of taking the time to develop young players. ...and he never did anything in the playoffs because he never developed his vets into stars. AG and Mario were nightly bench fodder.

I've soured on Vogel because he's not interested in development either. These coaches just want to win and that's not our most important goal right now. My favorite coach since the Dwightmare has been Jacque Vaughn because he was fully committed to developing young players. But people here hated him because he lost too much. Go figure.

Tbh, i blame skiles’shortcomings more on management than Skiles himself. It was clear that he was coming in mandated to make the playoffs.

Thats why we had vaughn fired too, because his last year, we werent even close.

Also about Mario, Skiles actually utilized Mario well. And even Mario talked highly of Scott planning big things for him for his second season only to be surprised that Skiles resigned.

Also, other than mario, he played almost everyone of our young players the most.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2016.html

Top 6 in mpg on that team were vic, ola, tobias, vuc, fournier and ag.

He was kind a forced to play them. Only 3 players were older than 29 . Among them, Frye got traded, CJ Watson was always hurt and Smith played a lot.

And still, Skiles was able to get more out of his team!