Let's fix the Tanking issue

[drsd]

worst 3 teams in East (#15 and #14 #13) cant compete for a playoff spot

(#12, #11, #10 #9) enter a tournament to play #8 for the final play off spot in the east

worst 3 teams in west (#15 and #14 #13) cant compete for a playoff spot

(#12, #11, #10 #9) enter a tournament to play #8 for the final playoff spot in the west

For whatever reason the league compromise appears to be the 7 and 8 seeds playing for the 7th slot. The 9 and 10 seeds playing and the winner playing the loser of game one for the 8th slot.

It is complicated, but I could get behind this.

The consequences to the lottery is unclear to me. (If the 7th seed fails to make the playoffs are they in the lottery).

..

[pepe1991]

reply to ralpie9898


I'm not sure what are you arguing against.
In general i hate tanking system ,but it's cheapest and only way how bad team can add young talent that is actually- talented and young.

Most teams stay in lottery for years because year after year they face disappointment with lottery picks or ,as you said, that young players can't really help you win any games in first 4 years or so.

Only reason why i'm pro tanker in Magic situation now is because system is super flawed and allows bad teams to get award for sucking, but i'm strongly against concept of awarding teams for being uncapable of running nba team.

I arguing against that tanking is a problem. I am arguing that I don't think it even exists for players and coaches. As I said I don't think they ever tank. I think they always do what they think is best for them and that is to the best you can so that you can get paid or keep your job. As for us losing I am fine with it. I don't think we are going to win much even if we tried(which I think we are trying to) so yeah I would lose but that is me. I don't have a stake in getting paid so it is easy for me to say tank. But I don't think the players or coaches are. I just think tanking is more myth then actuality. Maybe the GMs do it but to me it is simply a good strategy to think more about the future rather then the present. But I think any GM would want to sign the best players. Even Sam Hinkie would but I think he understood that there was no chance that he could get some better talent and simply instead looked to the future which I am fine with. I am arguing that we don't have to fix anything and that i think "tanking"(which isn't what I would call it) isn't a problem.

yea players and coaches have no reason to tank.
But Gms hire awful coaches and give them terrible coaches to sabotage wins. Look at Suns ,their coaches and roster and tell me they are not tanking for 3 years?

[KingRobb02]

These threads are always so funny. For the most part we oppose socialist policies unless we're talking about bad sports teams.

The way to "fix" tanking is to take away the incentive to lose. The best way to do that would be to get rid of the draft and let the draft eligible kids be treated as free agents.

If for some reason you prefer the method of telling 19 year olds that they will be in a bad situation for 7 years, just take away the weighting and give every team even odds.

[FrenchMagic]

An hard salary cap it could be a better option. Because the big three like Curry-Thompson-Durant or Wade-James-Bosh will be impossible except a big effort for their contract.
So, worst teams can be more aggresive on free agency with real possibilities to attract best player because its only teams with big space can offer big contract.

Small-medium markets and bad teams doesn't need to focus on the lottery and the draft and they have a real possibilities to attract with free agent. So the tanking isnt the only possibility and if you have +35 wins instead 25, you have more attractivity.

For me, the problem its not only the lottery and odds.

[MagicFan101]

Being a tanking team adds excitement to the draft and college basketball for me. I get my fill of b-ball entertainment regardless.

I would rather have than that be a middle of the road team with no hope for anything beyond the first round or a miracle steal in the draft.

Tanking is fine.

[OrlDave]

Without reading every post, I'm kinda partial to the bottom 5 all get the same number of balls. There might be some minor tanking near the end by the 6th and 7th place to get in, but it would likely be at the very end of the season when they have been eliminated from the playoffs as opposed to giving up 30% in as it happening now. Last year the bottom 5 was 20, 24, 26, 28, 29 wins. So even if a team does some minor tanking, it would be from a 35 win team down to a 29 win team, rather than bottoming out to the low 20s. Not complicated and all the teams in the bottom 5 need help.

[CZ Eddie]

I never even considered they [NBA teams] might do this.
It would explain a lot.

http://hoopshype.com/rumor/1165823/

Active tanking is more complex and, therefore, more rare. But in a race to the bottom so intense, it’s something that some have started to notice. One executive told ESPN that he suspects the use of “reverse analytics.” Instead of using data to determine which lineups may be most effective in a certain matchup, coaches may be provided with data that could yield the opposite. “It’ll be like ‘Mission: Impossible,'” the executive said, tongue partially planted in cheek. “The coaches will get the data on paper that will self-destruct right after they read it.”

[ralphie9898]

reply to ralpie9898


I'm not sure what are you arguing against.
In general i hate tanking system ,but it's cheapest and only way how bad team can add young talent that is actually- talented and young.

Most teams stay in lottery for years because year after year they face disappointment with lottery picks or ,as you said, that young players can't really help you win any games in first 4 years or so.

Only reason why i'm pro tanker in Magic situation now is because system is super flawed and allows bad teams to get award for sucking, but i'm strongly against concept of awarding teams for being uncapable of running nba team.

I arguing against that tanking is a problem. I am arguing that I don't think it even exists for players and coaches. As I said I don't think they ever tank. I think they always do what they think is best for them and that is to the best you can so that you can get paid or keep your job. As for us losing I am fine with it. I don't think we are going to win much even if we tried(which I think we are trying to) so yeah I would lose but that is me. I don't have a stake in getting paid so it is easy for me to say tank. But I don't think the players or coaches are. I just think tanking is more myth then actuality. Maybe the GMs do it but to me it is simply a good strategy to think more about the future rather then the present. But I think any GM would want to sign the best players. Even Sam Hinkie would but I think he understood that there was no chance that he could get some better talent and simply instead looked to the future which I am fine with. I am arguing that we don't have to fix anything and that i think "tanking"(which isn't what I would call it) isn't a problem.

yea players and coaches have no reason to tank.
But Gms hire awful coaches and give them terrible coaches to sabotage wins. Look at Suns ,their coaches and roster and tell me they are not tanking for 3 years?

Yeah i wouldn't say there coach is terrible I just think there are coaches better then him and coaches that also benefit from having great players. I don't think they are tanking. I just think that there GM didn't have a choice to do much better and is simply building for the future. Yeah that may cost them in the present but what else is he supposed to do. Even GM's jobs are on the line. Just as we saw with Hennigan. I just think tanking is a myth that has born out of this need to tell everyone they are good when they simply aren't. I sometimes think people who have a problem with what Philly or anyone else did wants everyone to have a .500 record. That just simply won't happen. There are simply just going to be bad teams. People forget in Philly's case that previously they traded for Andrew Bynum with the thought that he would be a really good center but as we know that didn't work out. I think everyone from the players to the owner wants to win and ties. It is simply that even though they did try it simply wasn't good enough and thus you have bad teams. Changes don't happen overnight and people need to understand that. But some will do it faster and better but only time will tell who that is and there are a bunch of factors.

[ralphie9898]

Being a tanking team adds excitement to the draft and college basketball for me. I get my fill of b-ball entertainment regardless.

I would rather have than that be a middle of the road team with no hope for anything beyond the first round or a miracle steal in the draft.

Tanking is fine.

Yeah no kidding. I love the draft and there are other things that can occupy my mind and give me happiness. Sure I would love it if Orlando was a good team but I understand building for the future. Especially right now with only a handful of teams(if even that) have a chance at winning the title. I can be patient and am not flipping teams. I am riding this out and would just rather see us get as many high picks as we can and then when they are ready hopefully we can hang onto them all and then make are move upwards. But we need better players and the draft is about our only source to get that. Free agency isn't the answer as we don't have cap space to do much and even if we did we aren't an attractive team for guys to want to come to at least not unless we overpay for them which isn't a good idea. We don't have much in the way of trade value unless we want to gut our team of our couple good young talents and highly valued draft picks which to me isn't a great idea. I am simply looking to build like Golden State did(albeit with higher picks but hopefully we can find some steals like they did). But it is an inexact science and you don't know who will be a steal and even then it takes a couple years. I want to see what guys like Mitchell and Kuzma do beyond this year before I can say who or what they are as far as basketball players even tho the early returns are impressive.

[drsd]

I would rather have than that be a middle of the road team with no hope for anything beyond the first round or a miracle steal in the draft..

This is true if it is a multi-year thing. But to go from bad to good, the middle-of-the-road is the half-way point to the top.

I dream of a 41-41 season next year as it means the players are coming together. Unlike most tanking teams, Orlando has actual talent.

..

[pepe1991]

if you don't tank you should be able to win 35 -42 games almost every year now because half of teams simply refuse to compete after January and do everything in their power to set their roster to fail.
Magic don't even tank and yet they are nowhere near .500 record. It's amazing.

[MagicFan101]

I would rather have than that be a middle of the road team with no hope for anything beyond the first round or a miracle steal in the draft..

This is true if it is a multi-year thing. But to go from bad to good, the middle-of-the-road is the half-way point to the top.

I dream of a 41-41 season next year as it means the players are coming together. Unlike most tanking teams, Orlando has actual talent.

..

Going from bad to good with a young, emerging star is great.

Going from bad to good with no true franchise player to build on is fools gold and is worse than tanking.

I dream of a super star. I worry about W-L record later.

... I have absolutely no interest in becoming the Atlanta Hawks of a few seasons ago or Toronto of today. These are quality teams which win a lot of games but who talks about them ever winning anything meaningful? Give me a bottom 3 roster over the Raptors roster 8 days a week.

[ralphie9898]

if you don't tank you should be able to win 35 -42 games almost every year now because half of teams simply refuse to compete after January and do everything in their power to set their roster to fail.
Magic don't even tank and yet they are nowhere near .500 record. It's amazing.

Yeah because right now we simply are not better then most of the teams in this league. Same goes for the rest of teams in the bottom ten. I think it just a simply a case of them not being better then other teams. I don't think anyone in the organization is trying to lose on purpose. It is just a fact when you have to have someone win and someone lose.

[ralphie9898]

I would rather have than that be a middle of the road team with no hope for anything beyond the first round or a miracle steal in the draft..

This is true if it is a multi-year thing. But to go from bad to good, the middle-of-the-road is the half-way point to the top.

I dream of a 41-41 season next year as it means the players are coming together. Unlike most tanking teams, Orlando has actual talent.

..

Going from bad to good with a young, emerging star is great.

Going from bad to good with no true franchise player to build on is fools gold and is worse than tanking.

I dream of a super star. I worry about W-L record later.

... I have absolutely no interest in becoming the Atlanta Hawks of a few seasons ago or Toronto of today. These are quality teams which win a lot of games but who talks about them ever winning anything meaningful? Give me a bottom 3 roster over the Raptors roster 8 days a week.

Yeah I agree though as we see with Lebron and Curry and Durant they need help. So one is nice but as with Anthony Davis it would be nice to have more than one or a good path to getting one or two to go with that player as we may lose that one we got like we saw with Howard and Shaq. Hopefully Isaac can be one. Gordon could be but also could be more of a role player. We shall see.

[tmacfan512]

No idea will work unless you can you do 2 things -- 1) incentivize teams to make playoffs and 2) let the worse teams get the best picks -- not sure how you do this, maybe one idea --- let the worst teams have highest weighted percentage for picks, still with a lottery but at the same time, allow the teams that are trying to win to perhaps get rewarded with a certain measure of cap relief (eg could a team like ours benefit more if we can get out of biz's contract instead of a higher pick) and possibly reward the teams that make the playoffs with a small extension of salary cap (eg maybe few million) and if you miss the playoffs you lose that cap extension (and perhaps get hit with luxury tax penalty).