Gamethread: Magic vs Raptors 02/28

[magicman112]

Happy for Mario

Me too. I really enjoy his fire and his skill set...whatever team he's on next year will be my favorite. Hope it's the Magic. He's got flaws, but he's developing... he's right where he should've been 2 years ago.

Just because people on this forum didn't recognize it at the time doesn't excuse FO for not seeing this guy and pulling it out of him.

to be fair, he wasnt setting the world on fire until this year. Now i didnt know he was hurt as much as he was, and Vogel has some reason to bury him on the bench. But he did have some opportunities the previous years and was still very lost and his shooting was down

I was fine with it he just wasn't looking like an NBA player at the time. Maybe that happening woke him up and motivated him I don't know. Now just have to see how it plays out in the offseason.

[OrlandO]

Great night for the tank, tied for the #1 overall pick!

Coach Vogel found the roster to give-up points: Mack/Iwundu/Vaughn/Hezonja/Biyombo

Gosh-geepers to play those five together - WOW; it is clear Vogel is not trying to win. And so the tank marches on.

I was at the game and I noticed that lineup too. For those of you thinking we aren’t doing anything to try and avoid winning, look at that lineup. If.

Vogel playing odd lineups is nothing new.... it's what happens when you platoon sub and don't stagger much. It's what happens when you're overly optimistic about every player on the team whether they deserve it or not. And that particular lineup was +4, so it's not like Vogel was letting them get slaughtered out there in an obvious tank move. The sad thing about Vogel is you can't really tell if he's trying to win or tank because either way it results in losing strategy. Two years in and he's yet to show us how he earned his reputation as a top tier coach.

[Blue_and_Whte]

This is a really poorly organized group of talent. There are some decent players here but just no sense of identity or cohesion for the team. I don't even blame the players anymore...poorly assembled, poorly coached. I watch every game and I can't even get what they are trying to be about as a team. The guy with the biggest upside to me is Mario. Iwundu doesn't look NBA to me...I actually like Biyombo as a $7m backup center. Something HUGE is missing with this team and it's not as simple as talent. They're good enough to play well for a while but not to improve enough to be mediocre.

I really hope that you don’t know that he makes $17 million a year, and that it wasn’t a type o. Nobody should be ok with a borderline back up making that much money.

But yes I wouldn’t mind him At $7 million Which is probably still an over pay for a bumbling goon but whatever.

I dislike Bismack Biyombo in case you haven’t noticed....

It felt like Vogel was tanking which I’m relieved about especially with these next few games coming up.



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[Optimus_Steel]

Me too. I really enjoy his fire and his skill set...whatever team he's on next year will be my favorite. Hope it's the Magic. He's got flaws, but he's developing... he's right where he should've been 2 years ago.

Just because people on this forum didn't recognize it at the time doesn't excuse FO for not seeing this guy and pulling it out of him.

to be fair, he wasnt setting the world on fire until this year. Now i didnt know he was hurt as much as he was, and Vogel has some reason to bury him on the bench. But he did have some opportunities the previous years and was still very lost and his shooting was down

I was fine with it he just wasn't looking like an NBA player at the time. Maybe that happening woke him up and motivated him I don't know. Now just have to see how it plays out in the offseason.

Indeed. He looked like he was on his way out the league. He was one of the worst players in the league last year. Guess it took the decline to lit a fire on his ass but it shouldn't have taken that to get himself going. Funny how contract years wakes players up.

[Skybox]

I still can't excuse management and coaching for not seeing it/pulling it out of him. He came in with the same mentality he has now...we took it away for a few years. Motivation is not just internal in good organizations.

To be fair, I wasn't completely upset when they didn't pick up option based on what I'd seen...but I don't hold myself to the same standards as the professionals when it comes to knowing the kid, coaching the kid, and projecting the right path. They blew it.

[Blue_and_Whte]

to be fair, he wasnt setting the world on fire until this year. Now i didnt know he was hurt as much as he was, and Vogel has some reason to bury him on the bench. But he did have some opportunities the previous years and was still very lost and his shooting was down

I was fine with it he just wasn't looking like an NBA player at the time. Maybe that happening woke him up and motivated him I don't know. Now just have to see how it plays out in the offseason.

Indeed. He looked like he was on his way out the league. He was one of the worst players in the league last year. Guess it took the decline to lit a fire on his ass but it shouldn't have taken that to get himself going. Funny how contract years wakes players up.

I said that months ago... Them declining him lit a fire under him. Imo that is a fact. He probably came in thinking they were going to gift him minutes and he’s been sulking ever since. Now he has to work for his money and he’s busting ass. That’s why I think there won’t be many teams throwing money at him because he’s essentially playing for a contract and the sample size is too small to warrant a big contract.,

I’m not saying the Magic havent displayed poor development, but we shouldn’t pretend he’s blameless in all this. Hopefully he stays.


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[dalton749]

eh, he started his tenure by trading away draft picks for future draft picks (that will probably be worse) and by declining Mario's team option... He has a lot of work to do to earn our praise.

Declining Mario is looking like a someone should be fired levels of bad move.

Um yea, that Ibaka trade was Magic robbery, might be only trade that Hannigan won.
You guys pay glorified Jason Smith $27M a year, have no cap space in general and given your past playoff records, you built a team to be Cavs warmup before finals .
And who you refer to young talents? Your core is : 28 years old Derozan, 32 years old Lowry, at least 30 Ibaka and Jonas 26. Others, who are young, are not even starters and nobody cracked 10 ppg mark let alone looked like star?

Weltman and Hammond started like Hennigan never left, didn't pick up Mario's option, still didn't re-sign Gordon, signed vets who do nothing and drafted Iwundu who's rookie career high is 12 points and who played 42 games and scored in double diggit- twice. And who is already 23 y.o. Oh and we traded ex lottery pick for second round pick.

Maybe Weltman will do his "magic" later, but so far, nothing.

Someone is a little salty.

Out of the raps rotation, 4 guys in demar, Kyle, serge, and cj are in their prime or past. The other guys playing regular rotation minutes are jv(25), Wright(25), nogueira(25), powell(24), Van vleet(23), Siakam (23), poeltl(22), OG(20).

These young guys are all quality nba players that will keep Toronto in the conversation for much longer than the vets window.

If you haven’t noticed, Toronto’s young guys are the reason they are so good this year. This team was projected to win 43 games, which they’ve done already with 22 to play.

The Hezonja decline is rough, but the guy was absolute garbage for his first 2 years before weltman came in and randomly picked it up afterwards. Getting rid of Elfrid was a good tanking move, you don’t need that guy and his baseball cap.

He will rebuild your team in his image, which will be length, athleticism, defensive ability, and high character guys. Gotta give a guy some time considering he inherited a terrible team stuck in no man land, you should be happy that you’re actually bottoming out.

[Shady Franchise]

I'm sad to say that I'm all in for the ROS tank. I'm not normally someone who would root for losses, as I still check the box scores after every game (West Coast fan who won't pay a dime for Magic TV with how bad they are) hoping for a win. Getting a top 3 pick will help take this pain away, and create positive buzz for next season. I'd really like to see Doncic, Ayton (just for the NBA buzz we'd receive), Young, or JJJ on this team, and grabbing any of those guys would really validate this horrible season. Thank goodness this season is almost over, and we can finally see where this organization is headed based on off season moves.

[pepe1991]

Declining Mario is looking like a someone should be fired levels of bad move.

Um yea, that Ibaka trade was Magic robbery, might be only trade that Hannigan won.
You guys pay glorified Jason Smith $27M a year, have no cap space in general and given your past playoff records, you built a team to be Cavs warmup before finals .
And who you refer to young talents? Your core is : 28 years old Derozan, 32 years old Lowry, at least 30 Ibaka and Jonas 26. Others, who are young, are not even starters and nobody cracked 10 ppg mark let alone looked like star?

Weltman and Hammond started like Hennigan never left, didn't pick up Mario's option, still didn't re-sign Gordon, signed vets who do nothing and drafted Iwundu who's rookie career high is 12 points and who played 42 games and scored in double diggit- twice. And who is already 23 y.o. Oh and we traded ex lottery pick for second round pick.

Maybe Weltman will do his "magic" later, but so far, nothing.

Someone is a little salty.

Out of the raps rotation, 4 guys in demar, Kyle, serge, and cj are in their prime or past. The other guys playing regular rotation minutes are jv(25), Wright(25), nogueira(25), powell(24), Van vleet(23), Siakam (23), poeltl(22), OG(20).

These young guys are all quality nba players that will keep Toronto in the conversation for much longer than the vets window.

If you haven’t noticed, Toronto’s young guys are the reason they are so good this year. This team was projected to win 43 games, which they’ve done already with 22 to play.

The Hezonja decline is rough, but the guy was absolute garbage for his first 2 years before weltman came in and randomly picked it up afterwards. Getting rid of Elfrid was a good tanking move, you don’t need that guy and his baseball cap.

He will rebuild your team in his image, which will be length, athleticism, defensive ability, and high character guys. Gotta give a guy some time considering he inherited a terrible team stuck in no man land, you should be happy that you’re actually bottoming out.

2014 playoffs -first round exit ( despite home court adventage )
2015 - first round sweep ( despite home court adventage )
2016- survived two series where you almost got upset by fringe playoff team ( Pacers) ,ended up losing to Cavs. For whatever reason Magic decided to overpay Biyombo based on that series
2017 - swept in second round

i really don't see single reason why i should belive that Raptors are anything more than pretender like Memphis was on West for years. Hell, Memphis in their peak at least upset Spurs, you never upset anybody. But you got upset twice.
To feed into whole pretender stand there is whole story of your inability to close out games. You guys flat out suck when it comes to close games. That's understatement. You are ranked 24th in close game situations. So how da hell i can belive you will be able to do anything in playoffs when margin of error gets thinner?



I dig some of your young guys like Siakam, therfore throwing money at declining Ibaka made even less sense.
Getting rid of Payton wasn't tanking move, but that's story for another topic


just for a record i'll probably root for you in playoffs because i don't like Celtic and Cavs, but it feels like you guys always underachive

[dalton749]

Um yea, that Ibaka trade was Magic robbery, might be only trade that Hannigan won.
You guys pay glorified Jason Smith $27M a year, have no cap space in general and given your past playoff records, you built a team to be Cavs warmup before finals .
And who you refer to young talents? Your core is : 28 years old Derozan, 32 years old Lowry, at least 30 Ibaka and Jonas 26. Others, who are young, are not even starters and nobody cracked 10 ppg mark let alone looked like star?

Weltman and Hammond started like Hennigan never left, didn't pick up Mario's option, still didn't re-sign Gordon, signed vets who do nothing and drafted Iwundu who's rookie career high is 12 points and who played 42 games and scored in double diggit- twice. And who is already 23 y.o. Oh and we traded ex lottery pick for second round pick.

Maybe Weltman will do his "magic" later, but so far, nothing.

Someone is a little salty.

Out of the raps rotation, 4 guys in demar, Kyle, serge, and cj are in their prime or past. The other guys playing regular rotation minutes are jv(25), Wright(25), nogueira(25), powell(24), Van vleet(23), Siakam (23), poeltl(22), OG(20).

These young guys are all quality nba players that will keep Toronto in the conversation for much longer than the vets window.

If you haven’t noticed, Toronto’s young guys are the reason they are so good this year. This team was projected to win 43 games, which they’ve done already with 22 to play.

The Hezonja decline is rough, but the guy was absolute garbage for his first 2 years before weltman came in and randomly picked it up afterwards. Getting rid of Elfrid was a good tanking move, you don’t need that guy and his baseball cap.

He will rebuild your team in his image, which will be length, athleticism, defensive ability, and high character guys. Gotta give a guy some time considering he inherited a terrible team stuck in no man land, you should be happy that you’re actually bottoming out.

2014 playoffs -first round exit ( despite home court adventage )
2015 - first round sweep ( despite home court adventage )
2016- survived two series where you almost got upset by fringe playoff team ( Pacers) ,ended up losing to Cavs. For whatever reason Magic decided to overpay Biyombo based on that series
2017 - swept in second round

i really don't see single reason why i should belive that Raptors are anything more than pretender like Memphis was on West for years. Hell, Memphis in their peak at least upset Spurs, you never upset anybody. But you got upset twice.
To feed into whole pretender stand there is whole story of your inability to close out games. You guys flat out suck when it comes to close games. That's understatement. You are ranked 24th in close game situations. So how da hell i can belive you will be able to do anything in playoffs when margin of error gets thinner?



I dig some of your young guys like Siakam, therfore throwing money at declining Ibaka made even less sense.
Getting rid of Payton wasn't tanking move, but that's story for another topic


just for a record i'll probably root for you in playoffs because i don't like Celtic and Cavs, but it feels like you guys always underachive

Not saying the raps are perfect, not by a long shot, but a long period of sustained success is exactly what this young franchise playing in another country needs.

The narrative that they’re chokers in the playoffs is silly; in the last 2 years only Cleveland and golden state have won more playoff games. The raps won the series they were supposed to, and lost the ones they were supposed to.

2 years ago they lost 4-2 to the championship Cavs despite having multiple injuries and it’s seen as a negative against them.

Last year they got swept with Lowry not playing the 2 home games, who also happened to rush back from surgery a week before the end of the season which led to having zero chemistry with their deadline additions.

If they get to the playoffs with healthy Lowry for the first time in years, and role players who actually contribute, and don’t make the finals this year, then we can say they underachieved.

[Xatticus]

Um yea, that Ibaka trade was Magic robbery, might be only trade that Hannigan won.
You guys pay glorified Jason Smith $27M a year, have no cap space in general and given your past playoff records, you built a team to be Cavs warmup before finals .
And who you refer to young talents? Your core is : 28 years old Derozan, 32 years old Lowry, at least 30 Ibaka and Jonas 26. Others, who are young, are not even starters and nobody cracked 10 ppg mark let alone looked like star?

Weltman and Hammond started like Hennigan never left, didn't pick up Mario's option, still didn't re-sign Gordon, signed vets who do nothing and drafted Iwundu who's rookie career high is 12 points and who played 42 games and scored in double diggit- twice. And who is already 23 y.o. Oh and we traded ex lottery pick for second round pick.

Maybe Weltman will do his "magic" later, but so far, nothing.

Someone is a little salty.

Out of the raps rotation, 4 guys in demar, Kyle, serge, and cj are in their prime or past. The other guys playing regular rotation minutes are jv(25), Wright(25), nogueira(25), powell(24), Van vleet(23), Siakam (23), poeltl(22), OG(20).

These young guys are all quality nba players that will keep Toronto in the conversation for much longer than the vets window.

If you haven’t noticed, Toronto’s young guys are the reason they are so good this year. This team was projected to win 43 games, which they’ve done already with 22 to play.

The Hezonja decline is rough, but the guy was absolute garbage for his first 2 years before weltman came in and randomly picked it up afterwards. Getting rid of Elfrid was a good tanking move, you don’t need that guy and his baseball cap.

He will rebuild your team in his image, which will be length, athleticism, defensive ability, and high character guys. Gotta give a guy some time considering he inherited a terrible team stuck in no man land, you should be happy that you’re actually bottoming out.

2014 playoffs -first round exit ( despite home court adventage )
2015 - first round sweep ( despite home court adventage )
2016- survived two series where you almost got upset by fringe playoff team ( Pacers) ,ended up losing to Cavs. For whatever reason Magic decided to overpay Biyombo based on that series
2017 - swept in second round

i really don't see single reason why i should belive that Raptors are anything more than pretender like Memphis was on West for years. Hell, Memphis in their peak at least upset Spurs, you never upset anybody. But you got upset twice.
To feed into whole pretender stand there is whole story of your inability to close out games. You guys flat out suck when it comes to close games. That's understatement. You are ranked 24th in close game situations. So how da hell i can belive you will be able to do anything in playoffs when margin of error gets thinner?



I dig some of your young guys like Siakam, therfore throwing money at declining Ibaka made even less sense.
Getting rid of Payton wasn't tanking move, but that's story for another topic


just for a record i'll probably root for you in playoffs because i don't like Celtic and Cavs, but it feels like you guys always underachive

This is a different iteration though. Toronto is fourth in offensive efficiency, third in defensive efficiency, and third in the league in net differential behind only Golden St. and Houston. I get the skepticism, but this team is a lot better than the last four playoff versions.

[RookieStar]

So ummm... when that basketball report came out about "stealth" tanking... you know, the one about reverse-analytics wherein the coach knows which group of people playing together will make the team sucks... you thinl the one making the report was thinking about Vogel?

LOL seriously, I actually think he knows what he is doing. We see the "not-stars" of this team giving us a lead and Vogel immediately brings back the starters to make sure our lead disappears. I think he knows what he is doing.

[pepe1991]

Someone is a little salty.

Out of the raps rotation, 4 guys in demar, Kyle, serge, and cj are in their prime or past. The other guys playing regular rotation minutes are jv(25), Wright(25), nogueira(25), powell(24), Van vleet(23), Siakam (23), poeltl(22), OG(20).

These young guys are all quality nba players that will keep Toronto in the conversation for much longer than the vets window.

If you haven’t noticed, Toronto’s young guys are the reason they are so good this year. This team was projected to win 43 games, which they’ve done already with 22 to play.

The Hezonja decline is rough, but the guy was absolute garbage for his first 2 years before weltman came in and randomly picked it up afterwards. Getting rid of Elfrid was a good tanking move, you don’t need that guy and his baseball cap.

He will rebuild your team in his image, which will be length, athleticism, defensive ability, and high character guys. Gotta give a guy some time considering he inherited a terrible team stuck in no man land, you should be happy that you’re actually bottoming out.

2014 playoffs -first round exit ( despite home court adventage )
2015 - first round sweep ( despite home court adventage )
2016- survived two series where you almost got upset by fringe playoff team ( Pacers) ,ended up losing to Cavs. For whatever reason Magic decided to overpay Biyombo based on that series
2017 - swept in second round

i really don't see single reason why i should belive that Raptors are anything more than pretender like Memphis was on West for years. Hell, Memphis in their peak at least upset Spurs, you never upset anybody. But you got upset twice.
To feed into whole pretender stand there is whole story of your inability to close out games. You guys flat out suck when it comes to close games. That's understatement. You are ranked 24th in close game situations. So how da hell i can belive you will be able to do anything in playoffs when margin of error gets thinner?



I dig some of your young guys like Siakam, therfore throwing money at declining Ibaka made even less sense.
Getting rid of Payton wasn't tanking move, but that's story for another topic


just for a record i'll probably root for you in playoffs because i don't like Celtic and Cavs, but it feels like you guys always underachive

This is a different iteration though. Toronto is fourth in offensive efficiency, third in defensive efficiency, and third in the league in net differential behind only Golden St. and Houston. I get the skepticism, but this team is a lot better than the last four playoff versions.

Is it? They were 6th and 8th in offensive and defensive efficiency last year.
My skepticsm is result of me actually watching how Derozan and Lowry turn into two man chucking show when games are close and how putrid their decision making is in close situation. That's why they are still one of worst teams in nba when it comes to finishing games that are close. Again.

This is from February 17 of 2017 from their fansided " More worryingly in their last 15 games the Raptors are 1-9 in their last 10 games categorised as clutch. These are games that are close in the 4th quarter (point difference of 5 in the last 5 minutes)."

So what changed? That they avoid close games. How long it will last when you face same opponent 4 times in 10 days without playing some lowlife Magic/Suns/ Kings team in between where your bench will beat their bench by 20?



And whole playoffs " thrash bros" thing ,despite being funny joke, still holds some legs .
Klye Lowry is career 39% FG and 31% 3 point shooter in playoffs . In 2015 he was shooting 31% overall on 33 mpg and 14 FGA.
Derozan is career 40% FG shooter in playoffs on 18,8 FGA and 20% for 3.
So basically, for whole lenght of their careers they combine for almost 40 FGA on 40% FG and sorry 3 point percentages. Will your bench bail you out from them ?

Sorry, not gonna cut it.

[Ducklett]

Show me the long list of people who thought it was a bad move at the time because if you pull up the thread on here reagarding it / pull up the media response at the time, you’ll find the list isn’t very long at all.

So it was a basketball miracle? You are telling me that these professionals that watch basketball players day-in and day-out for years watched this guy in practice and said to themselves "This dude is so bad it isn't worth keeping him on a cheap contract" only to find out that Michael Jordan's ghost came to Mario in a dream and gave him his god juice turning him from a non-NBA player to a possible top starter?

it would have been around what, $4.5mil or so. that isnt a "cheap" contract.

We are paying Bismack a cool 145.425670 mi a year and you don't think 4.5 mill is cheap?

It is 4% of our salary cap......

[tiderulz]

So it was a basketball miracle? You are telling me that these professionals that watch basketball players day-in and day-out for years watched this guy in practice and said to themselves "This dude is so bad it isn't worth keeping him on a cheap contract" only to find out that Michael Jordan's ghost came to Mario in a dream and gave him his god juice turning him from a non-NBA player to a possible top starter?

it would have been around what, $4.5mil or so. that isnt a "cheap" contract.

We are paying Bismack a cool 145.425670 mi a year and you don't think 4.5 mill is cheap?

It is 4% of our salary cap......

of course Bismack is overpaid too. Myself and many others called that as soon as he signed (though $145mil a year is a bit more than he is actually paid). But Mario hadnt shown previously that he was worth even $4.5mil

[Von Bismarck]

of course Bismack is overpaid too. Myself and many others called that as soon as he signed (though $145mil a year is a bit more than he is actually paid). But Mario hadnt shown previously that he was worth even $4.5mil

That's simply not true. His rookie season alone was worth those 4.5. Second season, playing injured? Well, if that's a valid reason not to sign him, then yeah, I agree

[tiderulz]

of course Bismack is overpaid too. Myself and many others called that as soon as he signed (though $145mil a year is a bit more than he is actually paid). But Mario hadnt shown previously that he was worth even $4.5mil

That's simply not true. His rookie season alone was worth those 4.5. Second season, playing injured? Well, if that's a valid reason not to sign him, then yeah, I agree

I did not know that he was injured. I didnt hear about that until this year. Had i known he was injured, I probably would not have agreed with the view to decline his option. To me, it looked like another Euro that was not adjusting well to the NBA game.

[j-ragg]

of course Bismack is overpaid too. Myself and many others called that as soon as he signed (though $145mil a year is a bit more than he is actually paid). But Mario hadnt shown previously that he was worth even $4.5mil

That's simply not true. His rookie season alone was worth those 4.5. Second season, playing injured? Well, if that's a valid reason not to sign him, then yeah, I agree

Hindsight is 20/20 but myself and most of this board thought it was a good idea not to pick up his extension. He was one of the worst players in the league last year, and the start of this year. I was obviously wrong as he's showing this year he can probably be at worst a rotation player in this league but it wasn't this dumb, obvious move like I'm sure people will be making it seem like.

[Von Bismarck]

I did not know that he was injured. I didnt hear about that until this year. Had i known he was injured, I probably would not have agreed with the view to decline his option. To me, it looked like another Euro that was not adjusting well to the NBA game.

It is a bit strange they kept us in the dark about his injury though. If I'm not mistaken, I found out about his injury around April. I remember some Croatian user, not sure which, had posted an article about Mario's injury here. Hence, he wasn't capable of playing with his national team. I also remember Mario saying something about recovery in LA or something like that.

Nevermind, I think we can all pretty much agree we won't see Mario here next year. I still hope for the best, but yeah, it's delusional.

[Driguez]

I'm here for the Raps and1's