Gamethread: Magic vs Bucks 03/14

[drsd]

That's one of biggest Magic problems, nobody is good help defender. Even Payton was ok man to man defender but was lost after first screen.
Gordon lacks lenght , Hezonja awarness, Simmons IQ, DJ size....

The disappointment of horrible defense nicely summed up. Sad indeed!


..

[OrlandO]

I wonder if we can trade Augustin's contract this summer if he keeps those percentages up the rest of the season...

[PennytoShaq]

I wonder if we can trade Augustin's contract this summer if he keeps those percentages up the rest of the season...

I was thinking this.

The funny thing abut DJ is he is a pretty good starting PG. The problem is that his defense is poor. But in terms of being a fit for a modern offense, he is great. I think he plays close to his contract value

[PennytoShaq]

This is simply a tough situation.

It's sad when fans have the dilemma of whether or not they want their team to lose.

These past 6 seasons have been hell and I want a good pick too. However, I believe the culture around here needs to change but I also look at the standings and understand the consequences of winning.

The situation is difficult for us all.

Totally understand Howard, I've been here a while and you were here a while before me, your love for the team can't be doubted so wanting to win can't be either. I agree the culture needs to change, that means moving players and rebuilding properly with a franchise cornerstone. Gordon and Isaac can be All Stars, but they aren't starts on contenders. I have nothing against Vucevic, Fournier, Ross, Augustine, Biyombo, Afflalo, etc, but we need new personal in with to change our culture and they probably need a new start. I personally see the roster of us competing for a championship (1 day) made up like us

??/??
??/??/Iwundu
??/??
Gordon/Hezonja
Isaac/Birch

we need at least 3 starters with 1 being a star and 1 being a 2nd or 3rd option, depending on how much Gordon and/or Isaac progress. With Isaac I see him as a modern centre, he will grow more, he will fill out, he will be able to shot, and will cause opposition centres serious problems in 3-5 years. His defence will be elite and playing those bigger players 1 on 1 he will have the speed to beat them off the dribble and make them guard him from the 3 point line, he has a very exciting ceiling.

The draft this year is really interesting, the biggest shame though is the Michael Porter Jr injury, otherwise he would have plugged right in at SF and been perfect for our team. I'm not sure Doncic is a #1 option on offence, but he might be the best prospect and make everyone better. He is my first choice, followed by Trae Young, if we could somehow end up with both of them, this rebuild could be a lot quicker than it looks like it's going to take. As for Vucevic, Fournier, etc, we need to trade them to get back in for Young or for future picks. That's the route we should take in my opinion, it's a long process though, and starts with losing these remaining 18-28? games

Its early but I see nothing indicating Isaac will be an all star. I feel like if a player is going to be an All star we’d see small flashes of that. I’m hopeful though. This draft is pretty interesting but also concerning. All this talk about WeHam type of players worries me that they would legit pass on quantifiable talent just because they don’t have ridiculous wing spans.




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Tough call. The announcers last night were saying how Giannis got a ton of minutes and a full season his rookie year and only averaged 7 and 5. Giannis is mentioned as a potential MVP in the summers now. I don't think Isaac will be in those discussions, but I do think that he may grow rather fast on the offensive end after another season or two. Once he figures out that he has a 3 that no one can defend, he will be able to use that as a setup. Right now, the game is still blazing fast for him on offense. I just am not concerned there yet because I always considered him to be a project that is 2 years away.

On D, he is already our best help defender. Funny thing is that our best help guys are him, Birch and Iwundu. Unfortunately, none of them can score the ball well yet. I think Iwundu has shown some real nice growth for us though.

[tiderulz]

This is simply a tough situation.

It's sad when fans have the dilemma of whether or not they want their team to lose.

These past 6 seasons have been hell and I want a good pick too. However, I believe the culture around here needs to change but I also look at the standings and understand the consequences of winning.

The situation is difficult for us all.

Totally understand Howard, I've been here a while and you were here a while before me, your love for the team can't be doubted so wanting to win can't be either. I agree the culture needs to change, that means moving players and rebuilding properly with a franchise cornerstone. Gordon and Isaac can be All Stars, but they aren't starts on contenders. I have nothing against Vucevic, Fournier, Ross, Augustine, Biyombo, Afflalo, etc, but we need new personal in with to change our culture and they probably need a new start. I personally see the roster of us competing for a championship (1 day) made up like us

??/??
??/??/Iwundu
??/??
Gordon/Hezonja
Isaac/Birch

we need at least 3 starters with 1 being a star and 1 being a 2nd or 3rd option, depending on how much Gordon and/or Isaac progress. With Isaac I see him as a modern centre, he will grow more, he will fill out, he will be able to shot, and will cause opposition centres serious problems in 3-5 years. His defence will be elite and playing those bigger players 1 on 1 he will have the speed to beat them off the dribble and make them guard him from the 3 point line, he has a very exciting ceiling.

The draft this year is really interesting, the biggest shame though is the Michael Porter Jr injury, otherwise he would have plugged right in at SF and been perfect for our team. I'm not sure Doncic is a #1 option on offence, but he might be the best prospect and make everyone better. He is my first choice, followed by Trae Young, if we could somehow end up with both of them, this rebuild could be a lot quicker than it looks like it's going to take. As for Vucevic, Fournier, etc, we need to trade them to get back in for Young or for future picks. That's the route we should take in my opinion, it's a long process though, and starts with losing these remaining 18-28? games

Its early but I see nothing indicating Isaac will be an all star. I feel like if a player is going to be an All star we’d see small flashes of that. I’m hopeful though. This draft is pretty interesting but also concerning. All this talk about WeHam type of players worries me that they would legit pass on quantifiable talent just because they don’t have ridiculous wing spans.

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on an injured first year? that isnt surprising. Butler, Kawhi and Paul George are examples of players that didnt look like stars their rookie year.

[axl_c_cool]

Totally understand Howard, I've been here a while and you were here a while before me, your love for the team can't be doubted so wanting to win can't be either. I agree the culture needs to change, that means moving players and rebuilding properly with a franchise cornerstone. Gordon and Isaac can be All Stars, but they aren't starts on contenders. I have nothing against Vucevic, Fournier, Ross, Augustine, Biyombo, Afflalo, etc, but we need new personal in with to change our culture and they probably need a new start. I personally see the roster of us competing for a championship (1 day) made up like us

??/??
??/??/Iwundu
??/??
Gordon/Hezonja
Isaac/Birch

we need at least 3 starters with 1 being a star and 1 being a 2nd or 3rd option, depending on how much Gordon and/or Isaac progress. With Isaac I see him as a modern centre, he will grow more, he will fill out, he will be able to shot, and will cause opposition centres serious problems in 3-5 years. His defence will be elite and playing those bigger players 1 on 1 he will have the speed to beat them off the dribble and make them guard him from the 3 point line, he has a very exciting ceiling.

The draft this year is really interesting, the biggest shame though is the Michael Porter Jr injury, otherwise he would have plugged right in at SF and been perfect for our team. I'm not sure Doncic is a #1 option on offence, but he might be the best prospect and make everyone better. He is my first choice, followed by Trae Young, if we could somehow end up with both of them, this rebuild could be a lot quicker than it looks like it's going to take. As for Vucevic, Fournier, etc, we need to trade them to get back in for Young or for future picks. That's the route we should take in my opinion, it's a long process though, and starts with losing these remaining 18-28? games

Its early but I see nothing indicating Isaac will be an all star. I feel like if a player is going to be an All star we’d see small flashes of that. I’m hopeful though. This draft is pretty interesting but also concerning. All this talk about WeHam type of players worries me that they would legit pass on quantifiable talent just because they don’t have ridiculous wing spans.

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on an injured first year? that isnt surprising. Butler, Kawhi and Paul George are examples of players that didnt look like stars their rookie year.

Isaac has the tools, Forcier will develop him, we need to move players, it's addition by subtraction. Does anybody think if lost Vucevic, Fournier, Augustine, Ross, and Biyombo with no return we couldn't be 26th in the NBA next season? Obviously we should and hopefully will get a significant return for them, but going with Isaac, Gordon, this years picks, Iwundu, and Birch (maybe Hezonja) and picking up more young talent that's been undrafted or in the G is the way forward in my opinion. We could keep Simmons who has an aggressive alpha mentality, and Speights, and Afflalo who are good professionals, after that this roster needs a reset.

[JF5]

Was at the game and actually pleased to see them win this game (though I want them to tank).

My observations from the Magic side were heavily focused on Issac (as he's obviously the main piece to the future).

1. He was being abused by Giannis. Though we would assume that he could guard him the best and give him the most problems that wasn't the case at all with how Giannis toyed with him. To be fair he is a rookie so it does make sense for him to get dominated by him.

2. He was gassed so easily... Having a hard time getting up and down the court from start to finish while watching this game (Birch subbed for him multiple times as he was laboring). That was pretty frightening to see and a little concerning seeing how he'd barely be on the court for 3-4 minutes and already have his hands on his knees. Shows that he's out of shape he is (due to not playing for several months) and his current body not being able to take the physical aspect and durability of the NBA. It might take him 2-3 years on that front to actually see him be able to body up guys in the paint.

3. He has no confidence offensively, barely any offensive game, nor does it seem like he has an alpha dog mentality. Right now he's a catch and shoot guy. From what I saw from him and how he carried himself on the court. Good player but I don't think he'll ever be a go-to-guy offensively. Unless his game makes major strides with his confidence and abilities his ceiling to me turned into guy who will most likely be in the Serge Ibaka/Rasheed Wallace/Rashard Lewis bracket which I talked about when he initially drafted him. Though this is a premature observation this to me seems like the most likely trajectory.

This guy is a MAJOR project and unfortunately that is something that fans don't want to hear right now. He's a guy where you'll most likely see a expansive change in his game in 3-4 years. Luckily that gives this team all the more reason to tank and get better players. Luckily for him I feel like he's a guy whose a keeper long term as he provides versatility/intangibles with his defense/size.

The one thing I might add is that we might be regret drafting Issac over Dennis Smith Jr. in a few years (IMO). But we'll see...

or Donovan Mitchell or Kyle Kuzma. Time to change the scouting personnel. They are all

I enjoyed the read up until the end. People, just let go please. You'll sleep better at night. We don't have DSJ. Let's move on.

I wanted DSJ but I liked and still liked drafting Issac. Its just seeing the differences in their game CURRENTLY. Can't say there won't be a change down the line (as Issac has tools to be pretty damn good) but I just can't see Issac being a better player than Smith Jr. from what I've seen from both.

[VFX]

or Donovan Mitchell or Kyle Kuzma. Time to change the scouting personnel. They are all

I enjoyed the read up until the end. People, just let go please. You'll sleep better at night. We don't have DSJ. Let's move on.

I wanted DSJ but I liked and still liked drafting Issac. Its just seeing the differences in their game CURRENTLY. Can't say there won't be a change down the line (as Issac has tools to be pretty damn good) but I just see Issac being a better player than Smith Jr. from what I've seen from both.

Isaac will be a good player down the road.

The DSJr talk is mostly about where this team’s roster is currently and comparing rookie development.

[PennytoShaq]

or Donovan Mitchell or Kyle Kuzma. Time to change the scouting personnel. They are all

I enjoyed the read up until the end. People, just let go please. You'll sleep better at night. We don't have DSJ. Let's move on.

I wanted DSJ but I liked and still liked drafting Issac. Its just seeing the differences in their game CURRENTLY. Can't say there won't be a change down the line (as Issac has tools to be pretty damn good) but I just can't see Issac being a better player than Smith Jr. from what I've seen from both.

Well that's super obvious. Water is wet. Everyone know that Isaac was a project pick and DSj was a more NBA ready prospect. Also, the Magic worked DSj out first and then did it again, and Lloyd is considered a very good talent evaluator. Safe to say they punted and went for the higher upside, long term play in Isaac.

So lamenting it now or overthinking it is a waste of time. All the doubters can say "I told you so" in year 3 if he still struggles. Until then, this conversation is a waste of time. I can't see how you can predict what Isaac will be in 3 years compared to DSj. Actually, I know you can't see the future, so that is just empty speculation as well.

[Skybox]

Tanking is much more exciting than 8th seed chasing.

Wow I totally disagree with you. Bad teams need to go through mediocrity to get to good. I would much rather be a Bucks fan today than a Magic fan. Your team has core assets to take yet another step up. This year, the #8 seed means your young guns get a taste of the playoffs. A sweep will leave a horrible, bitter taste in their mouths; meaning a very hard-working off-season.

I really like the Bucks next season to be a top-4 team. How can you not favor that?


..

Agree...for kicks, I looked in the Bucks threads and there just as sour as ours

[Skybox]

This team has always been like that. Payton putting up good numbers.... after the seasons already over. The team as a whole 3 years ago under Skiles playing well towards the end of the season putting us just out of position to pick Porzingis


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That would be TWO spots from Jah Okafor

...What?


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That would be the “can’t miss” guy picked ahead of KP

[Shady Franchise]

Totally understand Howard, I've been here a while and you were here a while before me, your love for the team can't be doubted so wanting to win can't be either. I agree the culture needs to change, that means moving players and rebuilding properly with a franchise cornerstone. Gordon and Isaac can be All Stars, but they aren't starts on contenders. I have nothing against Vucevic, Fournier, Ross, Augustine, Biyombo, Afflalo, etc, but we need new personal in with to change our culture and they probably need a new start. I personally see the roster of us competing for a championship (1 day) made up like us

??/??
??/??/Iwundu
??/??
Gordon/Hezonja
Isaac/Birch

we need at least 3 starters with 1 being a star and 1 being a 2nd or 3rd option, depending on how much Gordon and/or Isaac progress. With Isaac I see him as a modern centre, he will grow more, he will fill out, he will be able to shot, and will cause opposition centres serious problems in 3-5 years. His defence will be elite and playing those bigger players 1 on 1 he will have the speed to beat them off the dribble and make them guard him from the 3 point line, he has a very exciting ceiling.

The draft this year is really interesting, the biggest shame though is the Michael Porter Jr injury, otherwise he would have plugged right in at SF and been perfect for our team. I'm not sure Doncic is a #1 option on offence, but he might be the best prospect and make everyone better. He is my first choice, followed by Trae Young, if we could somehow end up with both of them, this rebuild could be a lot quicker than it looks like it's going to take. As for Vucevic, Fournier, etc, we need to trade them to get back in for Young or for future picks. That's the route we should take in my opinion, it's a long process though, and starts with losing these remaining 18-28? games

[u]Its early but I see nothing indicating Isaac will be an all star. I feel like if a player is going to be an All star we’d see small flashes of that[/u]. I’m hopeful though. This draft is pretty interesting but also concerning. All this talk about WeHam type of players worries me that they would legit pass on quantifiable talent just because they don’t have ridiculous wing spans.

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on an injured first year? that isnt surprising. Butler, Kawhi and Paul George are examples of players that didnt look like stars their rookie year.

I disagree with B&W because what he has flashed on defense, makes me think he can be an All-Defensive team type player. Also, we haven't seen Gordon flash All-Star ability until recently and he's been in the league awhile.

[JF5]

I enjoyed the read up until the end. People, just let go please. You'll sleep better at night. We don't have DSJ. Let's move on.

I wanted DSJ but I liked and still liked drafting Issac. Its just seeing the differences in their game CURRENTLY. Can't say there won't be a change down the line (as Issac has tools to be pretty damn good) but I just can't see Issac being a better player than Smith Jr. from what I've seen from both.

Well that's super obvious. Water is wet. Everyone know that Isaac was a project pick and DSj was a more NBA ready prospect. Also, the Magic worked DSj out first and then did it again, and Lloyd is considered a very good talent evaluator. Safe to say they punted and went for the higher upside, long term play in Isaac.

So lamenting it now or overthinking it is a waste of time. All the doubters can say "I told you so" in year 3 if he still struggles. Until then, this conversation is a waste of time. I can't see how you can predict what Isaac will be in 3 years compared to DSj. Actually, I know you can't see the future, so that is just empty speculation as well.

I think user like you and I know that Issac is a project. But people who want immediate returns and want him to shoot 10-15 times a game don't see or understand player development for a guy like Issac. A guy who lacks the confidence of just dribbling the ball.

Plus, I understand the "Overthinking" line of thinking but its an observation on my end. This is what we do here...

[RookieStar]

Regarding to Isaac needing to shoot more, isn't a "project" or "developing" players like that? You give them confidence first so they will be fine shooting 5-8 times a game, then as they develop skill-wise and physically you are fine with them handling and shooting the ball more like 10-15 times.

Developing someone doesn't mean just giving them the ball and shoot the lights out with getting a 2-12 fg rate. That is in fact opposite in developing. You are crushing the guys confidence in making shots.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Totally understand Howard, I've been here a while and you were here a while before me, your love for the team can't be doubted so wanting to win can't be either. I agree the culture needs to change, that means moving players and rebuilding properly with a franchise cornerstone. Gordon and Isaac can be All Stars, but they aren't starts on contenders. I have nothing against Vucevic, Fournier, Ross, Augustine, Biyombo, Afflalo, etc, but we need new personal in with to change our culture and they probably need a new start. I personally see the roster of us competing for a championship (1 day) made up like us

??/??
??/??/Iwundu
??/??
Gordon/Hezonja
Isaac/Birch

we need at least 3 starters with 1 being a star and 1 being a 2nd or 3rd option, depending on how much Gordon and/or Isaac progress. With Isaac I see him as a modern centre, he will grow more, he will fill out, he will be able to shot, and will cause opposition centres serious problems in 3-5 years. His defence will be elite and playing those bigger players 1 on 1 he will have the speed to beat them off the dribble and make them guard him from the 3 point line, he has a very exciting ceiling.

The draft this year is really interesting, the biggest shame though is the Michael Porter Jr injury, otherwise he would have plugged right in at SF and been perfect for our team. I'm not sure Doncic is a #1 option on offence, but he might be the best prospect and make everyone better. He is my first choice, followed by Trae Young, if we could somehow end up with both of them, this rebuild could be a lot quicker than it looks like it's going to take. As for Vucevic, Fournier, etc, we need to trade them to get back in for Young or for future picks. That's the route we should take in my opinion, it's a long process though, and starts with losing these remaining 18-28? games

Its early but I see nothing indicating Isaac will be an all star. I feel like if a player is going to be an All star we’d see small flashes of that. I’m hopeful though. This draft is pretty interesting but also concerning. All this talk about WeHam type of players worries me that they would legit pass on quantifiable talent just because they don’t have ridiculous wing spans.




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Tough call. The announcers last night were saying how Giannis got a ton of minutes and a full season his rookie year and only averaged 7 and 5. Giannis is mentioned as a potential MVP in the summers now. I don't think Isaac will be in those discussions, but I do think that he may grow rather fast on the offensive end after another season or two. Once he figures out that he has a 3 that no one can defend, he will be able to use that as a setup. Right now, the game is still blazing fast for him on offense. I just am not concerned there yet because I always considered him to be a project that is 2 years away.

On D, he is already our best help defender. Funny thing is that our best help guys are him, Birch and Iwundu. Unfortunately, none of them can score the ball well yet. I think Iwundu has shown some real nice growth for us though.

That’s true. I have to agree with this. I think he’s easily our best overall defender. I have to be honest I didn’t think his defensive game would translate this fast but it’s really impressed me.


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[MagicStarwipe]

Once again there is a disconnect between the people saying they want Isaac more involved in the offense and people thinking we're saying we want him jacking up 15-20 shots a game. The more he is involved now, the quicker he will be able to learn from different situations. You can find ways to get him easy buckets. Then you will see his confidence grow quicker. We've been having this same discussion for 6 years and look where we are.

[JF5]

Once again there is a disconnect between the people saying they want Isaac more involved in the offense and people thinking we're saying we want him jacking up 15-20 shots a game. The more he is involved now, the quicker he will be able to learn from different situations. You can find ways to get him easy buckets. Then you will see his confidence grow quicker. We've been having this same discussion for 6 years and look where we are.

Players are different... And I think its a bit overreaching to say this team has only tried the "slow build" approach with players. They handed the keys off to guys like Vucevic, Oladipo, Harris, and Payton straight away when they were given the opportunity. While guys like Hezonja, Gordon, and now Issac have shown that it will take some time.

Sometimes its best to handle prospect with care so they don't their confidence on the court. Just look at Markelle Fultz... Do you think it would be wise for the Sixers (especially since they're already winning) to bring in a guy whose essentially a shell of himself and would be a complete negative.

I agree that some players you throw out there and let them fail because they have an unshakable confidence/defined skill set that can contribute. But for other guys you got to protect them until they're ready.

[Nemesis21]

[Capn'O]

After every game you say this. We get it man you don’t like tanking. It’s cool. Doesn’t make people who care about the draft slot any less of fans.

lol where does he say or imply people aren't fans for wanting to tank? I think as an admin he's just playing to both sides...

This is simply a tough situation.

It's sad when fans have the dilemma of whether or not they want their team to lose.

These past 6 seasons have been hell and I want a good pick too. However, I believe the culture around here needs to change but I also look at the standings and understand the consequences of winning.

The situation is difficult for us all.

Very well said.

Spoiler:

But also, if you wouldn't mind, could you guys win a little more over the next few weeks. Thnx in advance