Most overrated superstar in NBA history

[SOUL]

I disagree with all of what pepe said lol. Titles are not an be-all end-all stat or else a lot of 1 ring or 0 ring guys would be rated below players that weren't as good but were lucky to be decent players on great teams. Equating finals losses to "not being a GOAT" completely disregards taking below average rosters to the finals in the first place. Even the greatest players of all time are going to need great/and or hall of fame caliber players on their team to win titles. Bird, Magic, Kareem, MJ all needed those guys just like LeBron needed Wade, Bosh, and Kyrie. And I also disagree with those LeBron teams being favorites. 2011 Mavericks and Heat both had similar records and while the hype of the Heatles was tremendous, it's pretty rare for "superteams" to come together and just win outright their first year. It wasn't a shock to me.

That Spurs team was a 1 seed with 62 wins.. hard to really call them underdogs no matter how old they were. Clearly Popovich had them playing elite ball and if you remember that team went crazy in March and went like 15-0 or 16-0 or something and had a lot of momentum during those late months and into the playoffs. LeBron and company were also coming off of 2 straight finals wins.. not really looking at that as a huge failure.

And I don't get how you can call those empty stats when if those stats didn't exist, his teams would be lottery teams. He can only go against the teams that are put against him. Yeah, he wouldn't be enjoying a however many long finals streak if he was in the west, but hey, it is what it is. I just don't get how you can look at him play and decide on talent alone, the guy isn't a top 3 GOAT... even if the rings or wins were never there.. but they are. Yeah, maybe he should have 1 or 2 more, but 99% of players would kill to have the amount of championships that he has.

[pepe1991]

I disagree with all of what pepe said lol. Titles are not an be-all end-all stat or else a lot of 1 ring or 0 ring guys would be rated below players that weren't as good but were lucky to be decent players on great teams. Equating finals losses to "not being a GOAT" completely disregards taking below average rosters to the finals in the first place. Even the greatest players of all time are going to need great/and or hall of fame caliber players on their team to win titles. Bird, Magic, Kareem, MJ all needed those guys just like LeBron needed Wade, Bosh, and Kyrie. And I also disagree with those LeBron teams being favorites. 2011 Mavericks and Heat both had similar records and while the hype of the Heatles was tremendous, it's pretty rare for "superteams" to come together and just win outright their first year. It wasn't a shock to me.

That Spurs team was a 1 seed with 62 wins.. hard to really call them underdogs no matter how old they were. Clearly Popovich had them playing elite ball and if you remember that team went crazy in March and went like 15-0 or 16-0 or something and had a lot of momentum during those late months and into the playoffs. LeBron and company were also coming off of 2 straight finals wins.. not really looking at that as a huge failure.

And I don't get how you can call those empty stats when if those stats didn't exist, his teams would be lottery teams. He can only go against the teams that are put against him. Yeah, he wouldn't be enjoying a however many long finals streak if he was in the west, but hey, it is what it is. I just don't get how you can look at him play and decide on talent alone, the guy isn't a top 3 GOAT... even if the rings or wins were never there.. but they are. Yeah, maybe he should have 1 or 2 more, but 99% of players would kill to have the amount of championships that he has.

Only time when he took below average roster to nba finals was in 2007, than he just had one allstar ( Zydrunas Ilgauskas , two time allstar ), over Pistons,who already lost Ben Wallace.

Every single player on 2018 Cavs roster was handpicked by him, key reason why they sucked is him ,as he wanted JR and TT on $15M contracts due shared agent.

Spurs series, who would you take, 28 years old LEbron ,28 years old Bosh, 31 years old Wade or 37 Duncan, 36 Ginobili and injuried Parker ? Be honest.
Not to mention that even in 2016 when they ( cavs) overcome 3-1 lead, people acted like they some massive underdog, despite Lebron playing with 1 superstar and 1 allstar, same amount of stars Warriors had, yet narrative was that Cavs were underdogs because of regular season record that literally means nothing ( ask 67 wins Dallas team how they feel about regular season records).

I called him top 5 of all time. That's all time great, but overrated in sense of greatest of all time, because he clearly isn't with all shortcomming he had.

Guy kicks board, plays 3 games after that without any problems, comes in 5 min interview after nba finals with hand gip,

My first real memory of nba is Shaq destroying lifes in 2000s , it might be hisoric bias but imo his apsolute prime was more dominant than any player after him . Does that puts him above Lebron in all time greats list it's subjective.

Everything about this debate is super subjective ( goat talks ) since it's impossible to compare eras, Lebron is one of best athletes ever, playing in league where players much less physcilly impressive are able to dominante because set of rules is stacked in favor of offensive player to the point where guys like Lebron , Durant and Giannis are unguadrable.

My fat friend once said it best in soccer game "when i use my weight to foul opponent -it's a foul, when slim guy uses his speed to outrun me why than it's not foul on me, how is that fair, we both use our strenghts "

[Xatticus]

I disagree with all of what pepe said lol. Titles are not an be-all end-all stat or else a lot of 1 ring or 0 ring guys would be rated below players that weren't as good but were lucky to be decent players on great teams. Equating finals losses to "not being a GOAT" completely disregards taking below average rosters to the finals in the first place. Even the greatest players of all time are going to need great/and or hall of fame caliber players on their team to win titles. Bird, Magic, Kareem, MJ all needed those guys just like LeBron needed Wade, Bosh, and Kyrie. And I also disagree with those LeBron teams being favorites. 2011 Mavericks and Heat both had similar records and while the hype of the Heatles was tremendous, it's pretty rare for "superteams" to come together and just win outright their first year. It wasn't a shock to me.

That Spurs team was a 1 seed with 62 wins.. hard to really call them underdogs no matter how old they were. Clearly Popovich had them playing elite ball and if you remember that team went crazy in March and went like 15-0 or 16-0 or something and had a lot of momentum during those late months and into the playoffs. LeBron and company were also coming off of 2 straight finals wins.. not really looking at that as a huge failure.

And I don't get how you can call those empty stats when if those stats didn't exist, his teams would be lottery teams. He can only go against the teams that are put against him. Yeah, he wouldn't be enjoying a however many long finals streak if he was in the west, but hey, it is what it is. I just don't get how you can look at him play and decide on talent alone, the guy isn't a top 3 GOAT... even if the rings or wins were never there.. but they are. Yeah, maybe he should have 1 or 2 more, but 99% of players would kill to have the amount of championships that he has.

I consider Jordan the greatest ever. After that, I'm open to considering a number of players including LeBron. I'd personally take both Magic and Bird over LeBron as well though.

I'm old enough that I got to watch these players quite a bit in my youth. I grew up as a Lakers fan because my father was from LA. I started out with a disdain for Larry Bird, which over time grew into a grudging respect. By the time he retired, I lamented that I would never get to see him play again.

I'm open to having this conversation, but I just get really tired of being labeled a hater anytime I critique players to whom fans have developed an attachment. There is no denying that LeBron is among the greatest players in the history of the NBA, but it shouldn't be interpreted as hate to question his place in this subjective hierarchy.

[SOUL]

I disagree with all of what pepe said lol. Titles are not an be-all end-all stat or else a lot of 1 ring or 0 ring guys would be rated below players that weren't as good but were lucky to be decent players on great teams. Equating finals losses to "not being a GOAT" completely disregards taking below average rosters to the finals in the first place. Even the greatest players of all time are going to need great/and or hall of fame caliber players on their team to win titles. Bird, Magic, Kareem, MJ all needed those guys just like LeBron needed Wade, Bosh, and Kyrie. And I also disagree with those LeBron teams being favorites. 2011 Mavericks and Heat both had similar records and while the hype of the Heatles was tremendous, it's pretty rare for "superteams" to come together and just win outright their first year. It wasn't a shock to me.

That Spurs team was a 1 seed with 62 wins.. hard to really call them underdogs no matter how old they were. Clearly Popovich had them playing elite ball and if you remember that team went crazy in March and went like 15-0 or 16-0 or something and had a lot of momentum during those late months and into the playoffs. LeBron and company were also coming off of 2 straight finals wins.. not really looking at that as a huge failure.

And I don't get how you can call those empty stats when if those stats didn't exist, his teams would be lottery teams. He can only go against the teams that are put against him. Yeah, he wouldn't be enjoying a however many long finals streak if he was in the west, but hey, it is what it is. I just don't get how you can look at him play and decide on talent alone, the guy isn't a top 3 GOAT... even if the rings or wins were never there.. but they are. Yeah, maybe he should have 1 or 2 more, but 99% of players would kill to have the amount of championships that he has.

I consider Jordan the greatest ever. After that, I'm open to considering a number of players including LeBron. I'd personally take both Magic and Bird over LeBron as well though.

I'm old enough that I got to watch these players quite a bit in my youth. I grew up as a Lakers fan because my father was from LA. I started out with a disdain for Larry Bird, which over time grew into a grudging respect. By the time he retired, I lamented that I would never get to see him play again.

I'm open to having this conversation, but I just get really tired of being labeled a hater anytime I critique players to whom fans have developed an attachment. There is no denying that LeBron is among the greatest players in the history of the NBA, but it shouldn't be interpreted as hate to question his place in this subjective hierarchy.

I personally don't mind rankings or preferences of people's top fives, I just think that "titles won" as a criteria (when said player already has a few titles) is one of the least controllable outcomes in sports and shouldn't delegitimize or factor into judgment of a player unless it's in direct comparison to another player with similar stats and similar team compositions. That argument works well in tennis or golf... basketball, not so much. It's a factor, but I think it's pretty far down the list unless we're comparing a guy with five titles to one with none, and they have similar stats. Then it's something to point out.

[PrimeThyme]

I disagree with all of what pepe said lol. Titles are not an be-all end-all stat or else a lot of 1 ring or 0 ring guys would be rated below players that weren't as good but were lucky to be decent players on great teams. Equating finals losses to "not being a GOAT" completely disregards taking below average rosters to the finals in the first place. Even the greatest players of all time are going to need great/and or hall of fame caliber players on their team to win titles. Bird, Magic, Kareem, MJ all needed those guys just like LeBron needed Wade, Bosh, and Kyrie. And I also disagree with those LeBron teams being favorites. 2011 Mavericks and Heat both had similar records and while the hype of the Heatles was tremendous, it's pretty rare for "superteams" to come together and just win outright their first year. It wasn't a shock to me.

That Spurs team was a 1 seed with 62 wins.. hard to really call them underdogs no matter how old they were. Clearly Popovich had them playing elite ball and if you remember that team went crazy in March and went like 15-0 or 16-0 or something and had a lot of momentum during those late months and into the playoffs. LeBron and company were also coming off of 2 straight finals wins.. not really looking at that as a huge failure.

And I don't get how you can call those empty stats when if those stats didn't exist, his teams would be lottery teams. He can only go against the teams that are put against him. Yeah, he wouldn't be enjoying a however many long finals streak if he was in the west, but hey, it is what it is. I just don't get how you can look at him play and decide on talent alone, the guy isn't a top 3 GOAT... even if the rings or wins were never there.. but they are. Yeah, maybe he should have 1 or 2 more, but 99% of players would kill to have the amount of championships that he has.

Only time when he took below average roster to nba finals was in 2007, than he just had one allstar ( Zydrunas Ilgauskas , two time allstar ), over Pistons,who already lost Ben Wallace.

Every single player on 2018 Cavs roster was handpicked by him, key reason why they sucked is him ,as he wanted JR and TT on $15M contracts due shared agent.

Spurs series, who would you take, 28 years old LEbron ,28 years old Bosh, 31 years old Wade or 37 Duncan, 36 Ginobili and injuried Parker ? Be honest.
Not to mention that even in 2016 when they ( cavs) overcome 3-1 lead, people acted like they some massive underdog, despite Lebron playing with 1 superstar and 1 allstar, same amount of stars Warriors had, yet narrative was that Cavs were underdogs because of regular season record that literally means nothing ( ask 67 wins Dallas team how they feel about regular season records).

I called him top 5 of all time. That's all time great, but overrated in sense of greatest of all time, because he clearly isn't with all shortcomming he had.

Guy kicks board, plays 3 games after that without any problems, comes in 5 min interview after nba finals with hand gip,

My first real memory of nba is Shaq destroying lifes in 2000s , it might be hisoric bias but imo his apsolute prime was more dominant than any player after him . Does that puts him above Lebron in all time greats list it's subjective.

Everything about this debate is super subjective ( goat talks ) since it's impossible to compare eras, Lebron is one of best athletes ever, playing in league where players much less physcilly impressive are able to dominante because set of rules is stacked in favor of offensive player to the point where guys like Lebron , Durant and Giannis are unguadrable.

My fat friend once said it best in soccer game "when i use my weight to foul opponent -it's a foul, when slim guy uses his speed to outrun me why than it's not foul on me, how is that fair, we both use our strenghts "

Lebron took rosters that had no business even being in the playoffs far past where they should have gone every single year during that first stint in Cleveland. Like just look at some of the names on those playoff rosters. Guys like Daniel Gibson and JJ Hickson were playing huge roles on those teams.

I just can’t stand the finals record argument in general. People praise Jordan for his 6-0 finals record but conviently just look past his playoff record before he got a top 25 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Lebron has never played next to a player in his prime the caliber of Scottie Pippen. It’s just boggles my mind how people can kill lebron for taking that terrible roster to the finals in 2007 and losing but not even mention how Jordan struggled to even get out of the first round without Pippen. So becuase Jordan never made it to the finals during those years it’s somehow more impressive than Lebron overachieving and going to the finals and losing?

You can’t diminish that 2016 3-1 comeback either. That system and collection of players is one of the best the league has ever seen and the cavs were severe underdogs for a reason in that series yet they still couldn’t beat Lebron. Even without love and Kyrie he still them on the ropes the year before as well. It took a top 3 player and former MVP joining a 73 win team that had just blown a 3-1 finals lead for them to finally get over that hump. That should give you an idea of just how great of a player lebron really is .

When you brought up the spurs you can’t leave out Kawai. He was playing at an extremely high level during that finals. There was a reason that the spurs were favorites coming into that series. They were an extremely well coached and good team. The Dallas series was a different story and is his one finals loss that should be criticized but you can’t overlook how good even at the end of their run the spurs were.

Everyone’s entitled to this opinion but I just don’t like this narrative that Lebron is as great as he is becuase of some rules that are tilted in his favor. He’s not just great becuase of his ability to get to the rim and finish, it’s his all time great playmaking ability and bball iq that seperates him as a player. That’s the skill that would translate to any era.

[pepe1991]

I disagree with all of what pepe said lol. Titles are not an be-all end-all stat or else a lot of 1 ring or 0 ring guys would be rated below players that weren't as good but were lucky to be decent players on great teams. Equating finals losses to "not being a GOAT" completely disregards taking below average rosters to the finals in the first place. Even the greatest players of all time are going to need great/and or hall of fame caliber players on their team to win titles. Bird, Magic, Kareem, MJ all needed those guys just like LeBron needed Wade, Bosh, and Kyrie. And I also disagree with those LeBron teams being favorites. 2011 Mavericks and Heat both had similar records and while the hype of the Heatles was tremendous, it's pretty rare for "superteams" to come together and just win outright their first year. It wasn't a shock to me.

That Spurs team was a 1 seed with 62 wins.. hard to really call them underdogs no matter how old they were. Clearly Popovich had them playing elite ball and if you remember that team went crazy in March and went like 15-0 or 16-0 or something and had a lot of momentum during those late months and into the playoffs. LeBron and company were also coming off of 2 straight finals wins.. not really looking at that as a huge failure.

And I don't get how you can call those empty stats when if those stats didn't exist, his teams would be lottery teams. He can only go against the teams that are put against him. Yeah, he wouldn't be enjoying a however many long finals streak if he was in the west, but hey, it is what it is. I just don't get how you can look at him play and decide on talent alone, the guy isn't a top 3 GOAT... even if the rings or wins were never there.. but they are. Yeah, maybe he should have 1 or 2 more, but 99% of players would kill to have the amount of championships that he has.

Only time when he took below average roster to nba finals was in 2007, than he just had one allstar ( Zydrunas Ilgauskas , two time allstar ), over Pistons,who already lost Ben Wallace.

Every single player on 2018 Cavs roster was handpicked by him, key reason why they sucked is him ,as he wanted JR and TT on $15M contracts due shared agent.

Spurs series, who would you take, 28 years old LEbron ,28 years old Bosh, 31 years old Wade or 37 Duncan, 36 Ginobili and injuried Parker ? Be honest.
Not to mention that even in 2016 when they ( cavs) overcome 3-1 lead, people acted like they some massive underdog, despite Lebron playing with 1 superstar and 1 allstar, same amount of stars Warriors had, yet narrative was that Cavs were underdogs because of regular season record that literally means nothing ( ask 67 wins Dallas team how they feel about regular season records).

I called him top 5 of all time. That's all time great, but overrated in sense of greatest of all time, because he clearly isn't with all shortcomming he had.

Guy kicks board, plays 3 games after that without any problems, comes in 5 min interview after nba finals with hand gip,

My first real memory of nba is Shaq destroying lifes in 2000s , it might be hisoric bias but imo his apsolute prime was more dominant than any player after him . Does that puts him above Lebron in all time greats list it's subjective.

Everything about this debate is super subjective ( goat talks ) since it's impossible to compare eras, Lebron is one of best athletes ever, playing in league where players much less physcilly impressive are able to dominante because set of rules is stacked in favor of offensive player to the point where guys like Lebron , Durant and Giannis are unguadrable.

My fat friend once said it best in soccer game "when i use my weight to foul opponent -it's a foul, when slim guy uses his speed to outrun me why than it's not foul on me, how is that fair, we both use our strenghts "

Lebron took rosters that had no business even being in the playoffs far past where they should have gone every single year during that first stint in Cleveland. Like just look at some of the names on those playoff rosters. Guys like Daniel Gibson and JJ Hickson were playing huge roles on those teams.

I just can’t stand the finals record argument in general. People praise Jordan for his 6-0 finals record but conviently just look past his playoff record before he got a top 25 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Lebron has never played next to a player in his prime the caliber of Scottie Pippen. It’s just boggles my mind how people can kill lebron for taking that terrible roster to the finals in 2007 and losing but not even mention how Jordan struggled to even get out of the first round without Pippen. So becuase Jordan never made it to the finals during those years it’s somehow more impressive than Lebron overachieving and going to the finals and losing?

You can’t diminish that 2016 3-1 comeback either. That system and collection of players is one of the best the league has ever seen and the cavs were severe underdogs for a reason in that series yet they still couldn’t beat Lebron. Even without love and Kyrie he still them on the ropes the year before as well. It took a top 3 player and former MVP joining a 73 win team that had just blown a 3-1 finals lead for them to finally get over that hump. That should give you an idea of just how great of a player lebron really is .

When you brought up the spurs you can’t leave out Kawai. He was playing at an extremely high level during that finals. There was a reason that the spurs were favorites coming into that series. They were an extremely well coached and good team. The Dallas series was a different story and is his one finals loss that should be criticized but you can’t overlook how good even at the end of their run the spurs were.

Everyone’s entitled to this opinion but I just don’t like this narrative that Lebron is as great as he is becuase of some rules that are tilted in his favor. He’s not just great becuase of his ability to get to the rim and finish, it’s his all time great playmaking ability and bball iq that seperates him as a player. That’s the skill that would translate to any era.

Again, nobody blames him for losing in 2007, but if he is allegedly that graet why he can't win single game in that finals? That's what true superstar should always give you, at least one win in best of 7 series.

NBA finals record holds lot of value, that's biggest stage in basketball, if you crumble 5 out of 8 times you are not as good as media makes you no matter how you look at it. Why championships matter ? Because they are ultimate goal of nba. It's like saying Asafa Powell is better sprinter than Bolt because he competed more ( and lost to him every time ). Again, goal in sport is to win it all, not to come close to winning. If we are judging players based on amount of appearances than Elgin Baylor and Jerry West are top 10 players, they were there 8 and 9 times.


Kawhi Leoanrd, in 2014 averaged 17,8 ppg ,6,4 rpg and 2,0 apg, while that was enough to win finals mvp mostly because of defense, it was still nothing eye opening ,as he was back to "normal" self next season averaging 16 ppg. That MVP perforamance ranks up there with Iggy's. Two years after that finals he become allstar for first time. Again, it's not that they just lost to Spurs, they lost by widest margin in nba history. 72 points total in differential i think. Whooped, cleaned, smashed, destroyed...

Warriors were huge overachivers in 73 wins, they bearly survived OKC, probably would lose to them if Green actually got suspended for nutshot on Adams, much like they would probably win if he was not suspended vs Cavs. People act like they were some megapowers team that swept their way to nba finals where Lebron as a Connan beat them, non of that is true, they even struggled in games vs Houston and Blazers, were 1-3 down to OKC and if Westbrook had any IQ in late game situations they would lose. But truth never fits agenda filled media Lebron biased hype machine.

I never really "hated" him as a player, but i never could stand his fans and mountain of excuses he gets for shortcommings, over time i guess i developed bit of hate for him because of them

[Maikson]

Again, nobody blames him for losing in 2007, but if he is allegedly that graet why he can't win single game in that finals? That's what true superstar should always give you, at least one win in best of 7 series.

NBA finals record holds lot of value, that's biggest stage in basketball, if you crumble 5 out of 8 times you are not as good as media makes you no matter how you look at it. Why championships matter ? Because they are ultimate goal of nba. It's like saying Asafa Powell is better sprinter than Bolt because he competed more ( and lost to him every time ). Again, goal in sport is to win it all, not to come close to winning. If we are judging players based on amount of appearances than Elgin Baylor and Jerry West are top 10 players, they were there 8 and 9 times.


Kawhi Leoanrd, in 2014 averaged 17,8 ppg ,6,4 rpg and 2,0 apg, while that was enough to win finals mvp mostly because of defense, it was still nothing eye opening ,as he was back to "normal" self next season averaging 16 ppg. That MVP perforamance ranks up there with Iggy's. Two years after that finals he become allstar for first time. Again, it's not that they just lost to Spurs, they lost by widest margin in nba history. 72 points total in differential i think. Whooped, cleaned, smashed, destroyed...

Warriors were huge overachivers in 73 wins, they bearly survived OKC, probably would lose to them if Green actually got suspended for nutshot on Adams, much like they would probably win if he was not suspended vs Cavs. People act like they were some megapowers team that swept their way to nba finals where Lebron as a Connan beat them, non of that is true, they even struggled in games vs Houston and Blazers, were 1-3 down to OKC and if Westbrook had any IQ in late game situations they would lose. But truth never fits agenda filled media Lebron biased hype machine.

I never really "hated" him as a player, but i never could stand his fans and mountain of excuses he gets for shortcommings, over time i guess i developed bit of hate for him because of them

But it's Asafa x Usain, there's no team that helps them while they're competing, so it's all on Asafa. You can't put all the blame on LeBron. The finals aren't LeBron vs Curry or LeBron vs Duncan. Vegas odds almost always had his opponents as favorites in the finals he played. 2011 is a stain in his career, but after that he became a much better player.

He's so good that Cleveland couldn't even get in the lottery while he was young, he was always overachieving carrying an awful roster to the playoffs. When he leaves they get the first pick, when he gets back they get to the finals LOL. It's only one man. Not many NBA legends have that kind of impact by themselves.

[pepe1991]

Again, nobody blames him for losing in 2007, but if he is allegedly that graet why he can't win single game in that finals? That's what true superstar should always give you, at least one win in best of 7 series.

NBA finals record holds lot of value, that's biggest stage in basketball, if you crumble 5 out of 8 times you are not as good as media makes you no matter how you look at it. Why championships matter ? Because they are ultimate goal of nba. It's like saying Asafa Powell is better sprinter than Bolt because he competed more ( and lost to him every time ). Again, goal in sport is to win it all, not to come close to winning. If we are judging players based on amount of appearances than Elgin Baylor and Jerry West are top 10 players, they were there 8 and 9 times.


Kawhi Leoanrd, in 2014 averaged 17,8 ppg ,6,4 rpg and 2,0 apg, while that was enough to win finals mvp mostly because of defense, it was still nothing eye opening ,as he was back to "normal" self next season averaging 16 ppg. That MVP perforamance ranks up there with Iggy's. Two years after that finals he become allstar for first time. Again, it's not that they just lost to Spurs, they lost by widest margin in nba history. 72 points total in differential i think. Whooped, cleaned, smashed, destroyed...

Warriors were huge overachivers in 73 wins, they bearly survived OKC, probably would lose to them if Green actually got suspended for nutshot on Adams, much like they would probably win if he was not suspended vs Cavs. People act like they were some megapowers team that swept their way to nba finals where Lebron as a Connan beat them, non of that is true, they even struggled in games vs Houston and Blazers, were 1-3 down to OKC and if Westbrook had any IQ in late game situations they would lose. But truth never fits agenda filled media Lebron biased hype machine.

I never really "hated" him as a player, but i never could stand his fans and mountain of excuses he gets for shortcommings, over time i guess i developed bit of hate for him because of them

But it's Asafa x Usain, there's no team that helps them while they're competing, so it's all on Asafa. You can't put all the blame on LeBron. The finals aren't LeBron vs Curry or LeBron vs Duncan. Vegas odds almost always had his opponents as favorites in the finals he played. 2011 is a stain in his career, but after that he became a much better player.

He's so good that Cleveland couldn't even get in the lottery while he was young, he was always overachieving carrying an awful roster to the playoffs. When he leaves they get the first pick, when he gets back they get to the finals LOL. It's only one man. Not many NBA legends have that kind of impact by themselves.

I agree that it's a team sport ,but it's star driven league so when you have 3 stars ( in 5 men lineup ) against other team that has no star in prime years, it's clear who is favorite.
Betting for 2014 Heat was "safe" ,for 1 invested Euro on Heat return was 1,40, for Spurs -2,80, so despite Vegas odds, for actual in game betting around the world Heat were favorites.

That Cavs bad lottery team without him is kind a false, when they won lottery ,year before he returned ( Wiggins pick, 2014 ) they were 10# on East, they were in playoff hunt all the way until March when they had bad losing streak. They still won 34 games. Not that terrible. 5wins away from playoff spot.
Team that went to finals year later added Kevin Love, Lebron and JR Smith. Pretty much nobody from "old" starting 5 on Cavs was there but Irving. Completley different team. Mozgov was starting over TT.

[Maikson]

Added them by trades, not FA. Cavs always did an awful job giving LeBron a decent supporting cast, those adds were one of the few that were good trades. They didn't give up anything valuable for Jr and Shumpert, and Kevin Love was a nice add because in hindsight we can see that Wiggins isn't what most people expected.

You said that you expect at least 1 win by a superstar in the biggest stage, he almost delivered in the past finals. His team failed him by one free throw and one stupid mistake. I think most people weren't expecting anything different of 4-0 in the 2018 finals. Somehow he scored 51 and kept the game close.

In 2016 he led both teams on all stats, that's completely insane if you think about it, videogame stuff. Not even Wilt, the stats monster, did that.

[pepe1991]

Added them by trades, not FA. Cavs always did an awful job giving LeBron a decent supporting cast, those adds were one of the few that were good trades. They didn't give up anything valuable for Jr and Shumpert, and Kevin Love was a nice add because in hindsight we can see that Wiggins isn't what most people expected.

You said that you expect at least 1 win by a superstar in the biggest stage, he almost delivered in the past finals. His team failed him by one free throw and one stupid mistake. I think most people weren't expecting anything different of 4-0 in the 2018 finals. Somehow he scored 51 and kept the game close.

In 2016 he led both teams on all stats, that's completely insane if you think about it, videogame stuff. Not even Wilt, the stats monster, did that.

What's the difference between trade and free agency? They had highest payed roster in nba ,at one point highest payed roster ever.


Again, counting stats, usage rate, total min played, amount of FGA , turnovers ( all highest on both teams ) ...
It's like overvaluing Wilt's stats because they are out of this world, yet success wasn't there.

I'm not arguing he is all time great, just not greatest of all time. Too much games where he choked, too many times odds were stacked in his favor when he didn't deliver, too many times he got all the credit and zero blames for team underachivments, too many times his fans ignored that he played last serious series on east in playoffs in 2010.

Nobody would view him as all time great if he , in 16 years went to nba finals twice, but east gave him open path to be there well rested , cakewalking through inferior competition every year last 7 years.
We talk about player who was one shot away from having 2-7 finals record. That would rank him as second biggest loser in nba history.

[Maikson]

Added them by trades, not FA. Cavs always did an awful job giving LeBron a decent supporting cast, those adds were one of the few that were good trades. They didn't give up anything valuable for Jr and Shumpert, and Kevin Love was a nice add because in hindsight we can see that Wiggins isn't what most people expected.

You said that you expect at least 1 win by a superstar in the biggest stage, he almost delivered in the past finals. His team failed him by one free throw and one stupid mistake. I think most people weren't expecting anything different of 4-0 in the 2018 finals. Somehow he scored 51 and kept the game close.

In 2016 he led both teams on all stats, that's completely insane if you think about it, videogame stuff. Not even Wilt, the stats monster, did that.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b9/6c/6b/b96c6b310d76f32dd065a4f9713d6cad.jpg

What's the difference between trade and free agency? They had highest payed roster in nba ,at one point highest payed roster ever.


Again, counting stats, usage rate, total min played, amount of FGA , turnovers ( all highest on both teams ) ...
It's like overvaluing Wilt's stats because they are out of this world, yet success wasn't there.

I'm not arguing he is all time great, just not greatest of all time. Too much games where he choked, too many times odds were stacked in his favor when he didn't deliver, too many times he got all the credit and zero blames for team underachivments, too many times his fans ignored that he played last serious series on east in playoffs in 2010.

Nobody would view him as all time great if he , in 16 years went to nba finals twice, but east gave him open path to be there well rested , cakewalking through inferior competition every year last 7 years.
We talk about player who was one shot away from having 2-7 finals record. That would rank him as second biggest loser in nba history.

For me there is a difference, a trade is supposed to be good for both teams, you want player A, you have to give player B in return. By FA you're just adding without giving up player B. If they have waited they could have added Love by FA (not giving up Wiggins). If Durant went to the Warriors by trade and not FA they would have to give up something really valuable in return to OKC.

And a high payroll doesn't mean anything. We had the 8th highest or something like that recently and we aren't a playoff team for years. Portland also had a top 3 or something like that and they suck.

Yes, there were times that LeBron chocked, passed instead of taking the last shot, but those moments are in a distant past. For many years now he's a game 7 monster, he hits buzzer beaters, he delivers in the 4th quarter even playing tons of minutes every game. He changed a lot after 2011. If his career was just dragging teams to the playoffs and not delivering like his 2011 finals run he wouldn't be considered a top 10 all time.

Yeah, he benefits a lot by playing in the East, there's no denying in that. But for me that doesn't change much his greatness. But it's just my take on the subject.

[Xatticus]

Lebron took rosters that had no business even being in the playoffs far past where they should have gone every single year during that first stint in Cleveland. Like just look at some of the names on those playoff rosters. Guys like Daniel Gibson and JJ Hickson were playing huge roles on those teams.

I just can’t stand the finals record argument in general. People praise Jordan for his 6-0 finals record but conviently just look past his playoff record before he got a top 25 player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Lebron has never played next to a player in his prime the caliber of Scottie Pippen. It’s just boggles my mind how people can kill lebron for taking that terrible roster to the finals in 2007 and losing but not even mention how Jordan struggled to even get out of the first round without Pippen. So becuase Jordan never made it to the finals during those years it’s somehow more impressive than Lebron overachieving and going to the finals and losing?

You can’t diminish that 2016 3-1 comeback either. That system and collection of players is one of the best the league has ever seen and the cavs were severe underdogs for a reason in that series yet they still couldn’t beat Lebron. Even without love and Kyrie he still them on the ropes the year before as well. It took a top 3 player and former MVP joining a 73 win team that had just blown a 3-1 finals lead for them to finally get over that hump. That should give you an idea of just how great of a player lebron really is .

When you brought up the spurs you can’t leave out Kawai. He was playing at an extremely high level during that finals. There was a reason that the spurs were favorites coming into that series. They were an extremely well coached and good team. The Dallas series was a different story and is his one finals loss that should be criticized but you can’t overlook how good even at the end of their run the spurs were.

Everyone’s entitled to this opinion but I just don’t like this narrative that Lebron is as great as he is becuase of some rules that are tilted in his favor. He’s not just great becuase of his ability to get to the rim and finish, it’s his all time great playmaking ability and bball iq that seperates him as a player. That’s the skill that would translate to any era.

I've been a bit reluctant to carry on this discussion in this thread because I really don't think LeBron is a particularly worthy candidate, but I do feel he is overrated for reasons very similar to those put forward by Pepe.

I really don't buy the argument that he hasn't played alongside other talented players. Wade was one of the best players in the league when they teamed up. Love was a hell of a player in Minnesota. LeBron turns talented teammates into role players. Chris Bosh commented on this around the time that Love was traded to Cleveland to play alongside LeBron:

https://nesn.com/2014/10/chris-bosh-warns-kevin-love-playing-with-lebron-is-extremely-frustrating/

Kyrie Irving couldn't wait to get out.

LeBron has enjoyed an unfettered role as a de facto superstar from the moment he entered the league. Every player he has played alongside has been required to cater their games to his style. They are expected to fill a very specific role that is built around LeBron's strengths; as opposed to their own. He fills up a box score because he has dominated the offensive workload of every team he has played on. I don't think people really appreciate the extent to which this is true.

It's really difficult to argue that he makes his teammates better when every player of note that he has shared a court with has seen their efficiency/productivity decline noticeably while his teammate. Contrast this to players like Bird and Magic. It's really easy to make a statistical argument that they made their teammates better and did so while occupying far less time of possession and significantly smaller shares of their teams' field goal attempts.

I can easily understand why people give LeBron James credit for his teams' accomplishments. I don't see why he is immune to criticisms about their shortcomings.

[pepe1991]

Kevin Love postups in Minny in 2013-14 : 8,8 per game
K Love postsups with Lebron : 4,4 per game

Kevin Love offensive win share without Lebron in his best year 10,7
K love best off win share with Lebron 5,8

OBPM without Lebron +7,2
with Lebron + 2,7

DBPM without Lebron in best year +1,2
with Lebron +0,9


best RPG season without Lebron = 15,2
with Lebron 11,1

Assists high without Lebron 4,5
with Lebron 2,4

points high without Lebron 26 ppg
with Lebron 19,00 ppg

FT attemps high without Lebron -8,8
with Lebron 4,5



Bosh suffered same faith, guys simply don't get better playing with him, he takes whatever makes them better and pushes them into role that fits him, not them.
But narrative is - Lebron didn't have help in Cavs, reality- he just turned one of best post scorers of modern era, who was easly best rebounder in nba and averaged 26 ppg on 14 rebounds- into glorofied Ryan Anderson.

That's why i have super low expetations with Lakers this year, Rondo, Lonzo ,Ingram , Lance all of them love to have ball in their hands, non of them will touch ball if they are not open for jumper. That's how Lebron plays. Everybody has to spot up, center has to be outside paint and others have to be in horns formation on 3 point line.

My biggest critic about his game always was that he has no desire to play within any system, he is system and everybody else have to adjust to him, if they won't ( Thomas, Waiters ) they will be removed from roster.

[Maikson]

Garnett's and specially Allen's numbers dropped when they joined the Celtics. PG13 numbers didn't change much, but Carmelo had a massive cut in PPG on the Thunder.

Even being a LeBron fan I think it's debatable wheater or not he makes his teammates better. Bosh and Love became sort of luxury spot up shooters.

I think you can't expect crazy stats of the third best player on a big 3 team. Bosh and Love were lonely stars on awful teams, Love seemed like a stat padder, of course their numbers would drop. The #2 stars (Wade and Irving) didn't had much of that problem.

And he has elite passing skills, for me it makes sense he dominates the ball. If LeBron played here I don't think any coach in the world would let DJ Augustin carry the offensive load.

And I agree with Pepe, I have low expectations with this crazy Lakers roster. Guys that like to have the ball and aren't great shooters.

[OrlandoSaban]

Dwight Coward

[PrimeThyme]

Kevin Love postups in Minny in 2013-14 : 8,8 per game
K Love postsups with Lebron : 4,4 per game

Kevin Love offensive win share without Lebron in his best year 10,7
K love best off win share with Lebron 5,8

OBPM without Lebron +7,2
with Lebron + 2,7

DBPM without Lebron in best year +1,2
with Lebron +0,9


best RPG season without Lebron = 15,2
with Lebron 11,1

Assists high without Lebron 4,5
with Lebron 2,4

points high without Lebron 26 ppg
with Lebron 19,00 ppg

FT attemps high without Lebron -8,8
with Lebron 4,5



Bosh suffered same faith, guys simply don't get better playing with him, he takes whatever makes them better and pushes them into role that fits him, not them.
But narrative is - Lebron didn't have help in Cavs, reality- he just turned one of best post scorers of modern era, who was easly best rebounder in nba and averaged 26 ppg on 14 rebounds- into glorofied Ryan Anderson.

That's why i have super low expetations with Lakers this year, Rondo, Lonzo ,Ingram , Lance all of them love to have ball in their hands, non of them will touch ball if they are not open for jumper. That's how Lebron plays. Everybody has to spot up, center has to be outside paint and others have to be in horns formation on 3 point line.

My biggest critic about his game always was that he has no desire to play within any system, he is system and everybody else have to adjust to him, if they won't ( Thomas, Waiters ) they will be removed from roster.

My biggest critic about his game always was that he has no desire to play within any system, he is system and everybody else have to adjust to him, if they won't ( Thomas, Waiters ) they will be removed from roster.

I think part of the reason for that is that he has never played in a great system. One thing that guys like Jordan and Kobe had the luxury of a playing in was great offensive systems. Or even Durant when he left went to an all time great offensive system. Lebron has never had that great coach or system.

It’s part of the reason why I was hoping he would go to San Antonio and play for Pop. I’m in the same boat as you when it comes to the Lakers next year. I see them as a 5th-6th seed and a second round exit type of team.

[BadMofoPimp]

Steve Francis, Vin Baker or Shawn Kemp

[pepe1991]

Kevin Love postups in Minny in 2013-14 : 8,8 per game
K Love postsups with Lebron : 4,4 per game

Kevin Love offensive win share without Lebron in his best year 10,7
K love best off win share with Lebron 5,8

OBPM without Lebron +7,2
with Lebron + 2,7

DBPM without Lebron in best year +1,2
with Lebron +0,9


best RPG season without Lebron = 15,2
with Lebron 11,1

Assists high without Lebron 4,5
with Lebron 2,4

points high without Lebron 26 ppg
with Lebron 19,00 ppg

FT attemps high without Lebron -8,8
with Lebron 4,5



Bosh suffered same faith, guys simply don't get better playing with him, he takes whatever makes them better and pushes them into role that fits him, not them.
But narrative is - Lebron didn't have help in Cavs, reality- he just turned one of best post scorers of modern era, who was easly best rebounder in nba and averaged 26 ppg on 14 rebounds- into glorofied Ryan Anderson.

That's why i have super low expetations with Lakers this year, Rondo, Lonzo ,Ingram , Lance all of them love to have ball in their hands, non of them will touch ball if they are not open for jumper. That's how Lebron plays. Everybody has to spot up, center has to be outside paint and others have to be in horns formation on 3 point line.

My biggest critic about his game always was that he has no desire to play within any system, he is system and everybody else have to adjust to him, if they won't ( Thomas, Waiters ) they will be removed from roster.

My biggest critic about his game always was that he has no desire to play within any system, he is system and everybody else have to adjust to him, if they won't ( Thomas, Waiters ) they will be removed from roster.

I think part of the reason for that is that he has never played in a great system. One thing that guys like Jordan and Kobe had the luxury of a playing in was great offensive systems. Or even Durant when he left went to an all time great offensive system. Lebron has never had that great coach or system.

It’s part of the reason why I was hoping he would go to San Antonio and play for Pop. I’m in the same boat as you when it comes to the Lakers next year. I see them as a 5th-6th seed and a second round exit type of team.

Riley and Spo wanted him to play PF, he went to public and said he won't.

[SHAQ32]

Mitch Richmond

Although i'm not sure how many consider him a true superstar; he did get selected to a Dream Team