Aaron Gordon Improving

[RickB-Orlando]

Don't get me wrong, I think AG is a significantly better defender, but as his stats improve, the team seems to do worse.

... not sure how we're "doing worse" with him playing better?

The Magic is losing at an accelerating rate over the last month.

I mean, what this graph shows is that no matter who is playing good or bad on this team, we always slide in January-February like clockwork.

Yes, drsd is making what was my point - it seems like the better his stats look, the more we lose. He's playing much better statistically in December and January, and the team is losing again at a historic rate.

I'll counter it with this (though I know this will bring down the wrath of Vuc hatred): the worse Vuc plays, the more we lose.

A quick look at the stats would seem to indicate that when Aaron takes on a more featured role in the offense, the team is actually worse. I'm not sure why, and it's certainly anecdotal, but it would seem that as Aaron's production improves, we win less games.

And I like the kid, I thought he was a good pick (I was in the hospital during the 2014 draft and remember very clearly watching the draft from my hospital bed post-surgery, and being overjoyed that we had dodged the Dante Exum bullet) and I was hoping he would turn into a key player.

Of course I was also happy to see we managed to get Elf, but that's another story. My point is, I don't hate the kid, but I am starting to lose faith because good players elevate their team. AG doesn't seem to be able to do that.

EDIT: I should say: Doesn't seem to be able to do that *yet*. He is of course very young for a veteran player, and still has room to grow.

[swarlesbarkley]

Yes, drsd is making what was my point - it seems like the better his stats look, the more we lose. He's playing much better statistically in December and January, and the team is losing again at a historic rate.

I'll counter it with this (though I know this will bring down the wrath of Vuc hatred): the worse Vuc plays, the more we lose.

A quick look at the stats would seem to indicate that when Aaron takes on a more featured role in the offense, the team is actually worse. I'm not sure why, and it's certainly anecdotal, but it would seem that as Aaron's production improves, we win less games.

And I like the kid, I thought he was a good pick (I was in the hospital during the 2014 draft and remember very clearly watching the draft from my hospital bed post-surgery, and being overjoyed that we had dodged the Dante Exum bullet) and I was hoping he would turn into a key player.

Of course I was also happy to see we managed to get Elf, but that's another story. My point is, I don't hate the kid, but I am starting to lose faith because good players elevate their team. AG doesn't seem to be able to do that.

EDIT: I should say: Doesn't seem to be able to do that *yet*. He is of course very young for a veteran player, and still has room to grow.

Weren't we something like 9-0 when AG scores more than 20 points this season (prior to him getting hurt vs the Nets)?

[PrimeThyme]

During the last 5 games where AG is averaging 21 ppg. 8 rpg, 3.5 apg, shooting 54% from the field and 40% from 3 he has a +/- of 7.8. Vucevic during the same stretch is -4.2 and Evan is -2.8. To even suggest that AG has been the reason we are losing or that us winning is somehow tied to AG taking on a smaller role is pretty comical. When we win this year AG and Vuc are both scoring over 18ppg, shooting efficiently, and both average a +/- over 7. Vuc's efficiency has really started to slip during this stretch. Though he is still averaging 21 ppg during this stretch of games it is coming on 20 attempts and his 3pt percentage is down to 31%.

Us winning is directly tied with our best two players, Vuc and AG, playing well, not with AG taking on a smaller role. Vuc just hasn't played his best basketball this season as of late.

[BadHombre]

The Magic is losing at an accelerating rate over the last month.

I mean, what this graph shows is that no matter who is playing good or bad on this team, we always slide in January-February like clockwork.

Yes, drsd is making what was my point - it seems like the better his stats look, the more we lose. He's playing much better statistically in December and January, and the team is losing again at a historic rate.

I'll counter it with this (though I know this will bring down the wrath of Vuc hatred): the worse Vuc plays, the more we lose.

A quick look at the stats would seem to indicate that when Aaron takes on a more featured role in the offense, the team is actually worse. I'm not sure why, and it's certainly anecdotal, but it would seem that as Aaron's production improves, we win less games.

And I like the kid, I thought he was a good pick (I was in the hospital during the 2014 draft and remember very clearly watching the draft from my hospital bed post-surgery, and being overjoyed that we had dodged the Dante Exum bullet) and I was hoping he would turn into a key player.

Of course I was also happy to see we managed to get Elf, but that's another story. My point is, I don't hate the kid, but I am starting to lose faith because good players elevate their team. AG doesn't seem to be able to do that.

EDIT: I should say: Doesn't seem to be able to do that *yet*. He is of course very young for a veteran player, and still has room to grow.

He's actually not playing much better in December and January, he's just playing a more well rounded game. His strongest month was in November, same as Vucevic, and Fournier even. Gordon has seen a slight uptick in USG% over Dec/Jan, which probably accounts for the extra assists he's using.

Vucevic certainly has a more direct impact on the team right now, that's undeniable. We need him to sustain his stronger performances, and regain his form on defense. Unfortunately his numbers are taking a pretty significant dive the past 2 months, particularly in netrtg.

Oct (2-5)
Vuc: 101.2ortg, 111.3drtg, -10.2nrtg
AG: 100.2ortg, 104.6drtg, -4.4nrtg

Nov (9-7)
Vuc: 112.4ortg, 103.6drtg, +8.8nrtg
AG: 110.0ortg, 106.4drtg, +3.6nrtg

Dec (5-8)
Vuc: 108.0ortg, 106.5drtg, +1.5nrtg
AG: 104.3ortg, 106.2drtg, -1.9nrtg

Jan (3-7)
Vuc: 105.3ortg, 111.9drtg, -6.6nrtg
AG: 107.2ortg, 107.5drtg, -0.3nrtg

The other big standouts are Vuc's big drop in eFG% and TS% since our hot November. He was roughly 60/60 for both over Oct/Nov, and the last two months he's been down at 52%/53% respectively.

[MagicFan101]

I want to see AG + at least one of Isaac / Bamba + a legit star PG.

... be clear. I didn’t say “super star PG.” I think even adding Russell, a home run draft pick or perhaps DSjr could propel these guys and out team to another level.

I’m happy WeHam is being patient in trying to find that PG. As long as the losses keep coming the tank is healthy. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to give up our trade assets / upcoming cap space before quality options materialize.

The “just blow it up” movement is getting rediculous. You’re just kicking the can down the road and extending the rebuild if you don’t make calculated changes.

[Def Swami]

Problem with all of this is what happens to Isaac? Sure, AG has raised his numbers this month, but Isaac has looked brutally bad playing out of position next to him.

Not to mention that although his numbers have been better, having him as a secondary option to Vuc hasn’t produced winning basketball.

By the way, nobody thought he was a “garbage man PF with hops”. People thought he was Blake Griffin-lite taken with the number 4 pick in what was considered at the time a deep draft. Also, calling AG this rosters budding “second best player” means less than nothing with the severe lack of talent currently. Just keeping it real.

Glad someone is finding positive for this organization.

Isaac has gone ghost without AG too.

[SOUL]

Gordon has also had his supporters. Let’s not act like he wasn’t always considered the future after Oladipo. The garbage bucket thing is mostly because he’s had no go-to move and still kinda doesn’t. His shooting numbers have gone up, so that’s a positive.

I do see the Isaac thing as a problem. Why? Because as the 6th pick playing as the 5th option in a starting lineup of DJ and Fournier and he should be able to outshine them. He’s 6’11 playing next to a 6’9 pf. It’s not really about the numbers and more about the skill set to match the other players on the team. Nothing to panic about now, but nothing ever really is until it becomes an issue. Like the issues that this FO have still failed to address.

Gordon is starting material. Nobody has ever said he wasn’t. His game makes less sense to me next to Vuc in a stagnant half court offense, always did and always will. Put him in a run and gun offense and he would thrive similarly to Draymond with obviously lesser surrounding talent. In Orlando that will probably never happen for him.

Why wouldn't he have supporters? There seems to be an anti-young player fatigue from some posters after only a year or two of their play, where people like myself have to continually preach patience and let results play out as people give up on guys when they're 21 years old here if they don't turn into Jordan or LeBron or something. I get the frustrations, I don't get the need to drive it into the ground after every game. Not accusing you of this, btw.

But nonetheless, it was still a thing. Remember, his 3rd year Summer League was the turning point for a lot of people because he showed quite a different bit of aggressiveness and feel for the game than he did prior to that. And even in that year, he only averaged 12 points a game because he wasn't that comfortable on the perimeter just yet (he's not perfect here, but can do it now), and had to wait until Ibaka left to show his stuff. I think Gordon has changed his game enough to be able to play SF next to Isaac, if Isaac's natural position is PF. Ideal? Maybe not, but until we find that ideal player, I don't think we're pressed to trade either player unless there is some deal out there that we can't turn down. I think BOTH would look better in a faster offense.

And I agree with the half-court offense thing. Nothing ever makes sense with our offenses but it is what it is until we start moving some of the high usage guys that dictate it. It's unfortunate that many of our guys would be thriving on other teams and we don't seek to enhance that here. People like Vuc and Ross are thriving, but at what cost? Is it just a coincidence that both of them are due for contracts after this year? Hard work and solid fundamentals is key to winning basketball, but coaches that can identity their team's strengths and try their damndest to make that work are usually the ones that will succeed in the league instead of bringing over their default templates. It's like, cool, we don't turn the ball over now and don't foul.. but we're still seeing the same Magic basketball we've been used to from the last decade after Dwight.