How would you grade our player development?

[fklt]

I don't think development is overrated. every person in every profession gets affected by the people around them, and grow or stagnate as an individual in result of it. claiming situation and circumstance has no bearing on success, and achievements are just the result of a person's inner strength or whatever would be pretty dumb. why would basketball be any exception?

the thing is; letting young players play to their hearts contents with unlimited minutes has nothing to do with any of it. never has been. everybody loves to throw blame around easily when Isaac gets repeatedly injured in his rookie season, but they also can't bear to witness him growing with controlled minutes. people were screaming about giving gordon all the usage so that he would develop. we all witnessed him crash and burn second half of last year, and being untethered doing nothing for his growth. then this year we saw clifford giving him well defined role in offense, and he is a maturing his game better than ever. so I would say the most ironic thing about this all, the people screaming about how our development sucks are almost exactly the same people who can not be bothered to suffer through it. it annoys me to no end people seeing our salvation in giving bamba 30 minutes a game can still be a thing after all this.

anyway, I think the most underrated failed moment of our rebuild is the rejection we got from millsap. that was back when we had accumulated all of our best assets. we only needed a mature, skilled, accomplished player with work ethic that our young guys would respect, and have him show them how to be professionals. that could be the moment when all the stress of forced growth expected from our youth and franchise as a whole would vanish and we could see a group of great players get better at their own pace for years to come.

instead we got the whiny bitch ibaka who was complaining about his touches on a team with 3 MVP level players. my god, I hate everything that happened in those 2 vogel years.

edit: and just literally minutes after this, it's reported that bamba gets injured with a stress fracture

[VFX]

The 6 people that voted A or B need to pass whatever it is they are smoking.

[pepe1991]

I don't think development is overrated. every person in every profession gets affected by the people around them, and grow or stagnate as an individual in result of it. claiming situation and circumstance has no bearing on success, and achievements are just the result of a person's inner strength or whatever would be pretty dumb. why would basketball be any exception?

the thing is; letting young players play to their hearts contents with unlimited minutes has nothing to do with any of it. never has been. everybody loves to throw blame around easily when Isaac gets repeatedly injured in his rookie season, but they also can't bear to witness him growing with controlled minutes. people were screaming about giving gordon all the usage so that he would develop. we all witnessed him crash and burn second half of last year, and being untethered doing nothing for his growth. then this year we saw clifford giving him well defined role in offense, and he is a maturing his game better than ever. so I would say the most ironic thing about this all, the people screaming about how our development sucks are almost exactly the same people who can not be bothered to suffer through it. it annoys me to no end people seeing our salvation in giving bamba 30 minutes a game can still be a thing after all this.

anyway, I think the most underrated failed moment of our rebuild is the rejection we got from millsap. that was back when we had accumulated all of our best assets. we only needed a mature, skilled, accomplished player with work ethic that our young guys would respect, and have him show them how to be professionals. that could be the moment when all the stress of forced growth expected from our youth and franchise as a whole would vanish and we could see a group of great players get better at their own pace for years to come.

instead we got the whiny bitch ibaka who was complaining about his touches on a team with 3 MVP level players. my god, I hate everything that happened in those 2 vogel years.

Amen. As i said already, problem on forum is fact that nobody eats crow for BS they spit. They just go in hiding or change acc or act they never said any of it.

In general half of forum is made of people that only cry and complain, part is made of apologists and only few ones don't post with clear agenda.

[fklt]

Amen. As i said already, problem on forum is fact that nobody eats crow for BS they spit. They just go in hiding or change acc or act they never said any of it.

In general half of forum is made of people that only cry and complain, part is made of apologists and only few ones don't post with clear agenda.

I'd have no problems with people changing acts or ideas. and it wouldn't be fair to expect people declaring how wrong they were on every occasion they've noticed they're wrong. I really appreciated PrimeThyme going out of his way to acknowledge he was wrong on things the other day.

what really bothers me though, people playing any of the three monkeys necessary just long enough so that they can stay married to their ideas and don't eat crow. oh, such integrity, way to be a beacon of consistency.

[Xatticus]

The 6 people that voted A or B need to pass whatever it is they are smoking.

I voted B. I am happy with our player development right now under Clifford and his staff.

[BadHombre]

I don't think development is overrated. every person in every profession gets affected by the people around them, and grow or stagnate as an individual in result of it. claiming situation and circumstance has no bearing on success, and achievements are just the result of a person's inner strength or whatever would be pretty dumb. why would basketball be any exception?

the thing is; letting young players play to their hearts contents with unlimited minutes has nothing to do with any of it. never has been. everybody loves to throw blame around easily when Isaac gets repeatedly injured in his rookie season, but they also can't bear to witness him growing with controlled minutes. people were screaming about giving gordon all the usage so that he would develop. we all witnessed him crash and burn second half of last year, and being untethered doing nothing for his growth. then this year we saw clifford giving him well defined role in offense, and he is a maturing his game better than ever. so I would say the most ironic thing about this all, the people screaming about how our development sucks are almost exactly the same people who can not be bothered to suffer through it. it annoys me to no end people seeing our salvation in giving bamba 30 minutes a game can still be a thing after all this.

anyway, I think the most underrated failed moment of our rebuild is the rejection we got from millsap. that was back when we had accumulated all of our best assets. we only needed a mature, skilled, accomplished player with work ethic that our young guys would respect, and have him show them how to be professionals. that could be the moment when all the stress of forced growth expected from our youth and franchise as a whole would vanish and we could see a group of great players get better at their own pace for years to come.

instead we got the whiny bitch ibaka who was complaining about his touches on a team with 3 MVP level players. my god, I hate everything that happened in those 2 vogel years.

Amen. As i said already, problem on forum is fact that nobody eats crow for BS they spit. They just go in hiding or change acc or act they never said any of it.

In general half of forum is made of people that only cry and complain, part is made of apologists and only few ones don't post with clear agenda.

Oh pepe. You really do enjoy making a habit of embarrassing yourself. You just made a post saying development is overrated, then you quote a post that debunks that notion, and you follow up with ‘Amen!’.

And furthering the irony is that the section you’ve bolded describes you exactly. Game after game you complain about our raw or developing talents. You never acknowledge their improvements.

Your whole MO is to jump around making outrageous and unfounded statements and once you find yourself cornered you change the argument entirely. You never present opinions through rationalised reasoning, you just dump hot takes and some empty stats to support it. You are the equivalent of a Trump twitter supporter, or a breitbart article. You deserve to have your BS called out because the board doesn’t need that much inflammatory, ill-informed crap on the board.

And the crow you’re after? Considering it took Vuc until he was 27 to put up allstar numbers, I’d say most of our young prospects or former young prospects still have time to improve their games. Unless, they don’t deserve the patience of allowing them to reach their prime? In which case - again, you’ve missed the point of development. (And before you bring the ridiculous hyperbole of ‘oh so you’re saying [insert player] will be an allstar by 27? [insert pathetic gif]’, no, that’s not the assumption. It’s the hope, but not an expectation.

[pepe1991]

I don't think development is overrated. every person in every profession gets affected by the people around them, and grow or stagnate as an individual in result of it. claiming situation and circumstance has no bearing on success, and achievements are just the result of a person's inner strength or whatever would be pretty dumb. why would basketball be any exception?

the thing is; letting young players play to their hearts contents with unlimited minutes has nothing to do with any of it. never has been. everybody loves to throw blame around easily when Isaac gets repeatedly injured in his rookie season, but they also can't bear to witness him growing with controlled minutes. people were screaming about giving gordon all the usage so that he would develop. we all witnessed him crash and burn second half of last year, and being untethered doing nothing for his growth. then this year we saw clifford giving him well defined role in offense, and he is a maturing his game better than ever. so I would say the most ironic thing about this all, the people screaming about how our development sucks are almost exactly the same people who can not be bothered to suffer through it. it annoys me to no end people seeing our salvation in giving bamba 30 minutes a game can still be a thing after all this.

anyway, I think the most underrated failed moment of our rebuild is the rejection we got from millsap. that was back when we had accumulated all of our best assets. we only needed a mature, skilled, accomplished player with work ethic that our young guys would respect, and have him show them how to be professionals. that could be the moment when all the stress of forced growth expected from our youth and franchise as a whole would vanish and we could see a group of great players get better at their own pace for years to come.

instead we got the whiny bitch ibaka who was complaining about his touches on a team with 3 MVP level players. my god, I hate everything that happened in those 2 vogel years.

Amen. As i said already, problem on forum is fact that nobody eats crow for BS they spit. They just go in hiding or change acc or act they never said any of it.

In general half of forum is made of people that only cry and complain, part is made of apologists and only few ones don't post with clear agenda.

Oh pepe. You really do enjoy making a habit of embarrassing yourself. You just made a post saying development is overrated, then you quote a post that debunks that notion, and you follow up with ‘Amen!’.

And furthering the irony is that the section you’ve bolded describes you exactly. Game after game you complain about our raw or developing talents. You never acknowledge their improvements.

Your whole MO is to jump around making outrageous and unfounded statements and once you find yourself cornered you change the argument entirely. You never present opinions through rationalised reasoning, you just dump hot takes and some empty stats to support it. You are the equivalent of a Trump twitter supporter, or a breitbart article. You deserve to have your BS called out because the board doesn’t need that much inflammatory, ill-informed crap on the board.

And the crow you’re after? Considering it took Vuc until he was 27 to put up allstar numbers, I’d say most of our young prospects or former young prospects still have time to improve their games. Unless, they don’t deserve the patience of allowing them to reach their prime? In which case - again, you’ve missed the point of development. (And before you bring the ridiculous hyperbole of ‘oh so you’re saying [insert player] will be an allstar by 27? [insert pathetic gif]’, no, that’s not the assumption. It’s the hope, but not an expectation.

I feel sorry for you, you literally went through whole forum to find something come up with since you got busted so badly in Bamba debate about playing time.
Hug a mom. Take a deep breath. This is your highlight of a day.

[BadHombre]

Amen. As i said already, problem on forum is fact that nobody eats crow for BS they spit. They just go in hiding or change acc or act they never said any of it.

In general half of forum is made of people that only cry and complain, part is made of apologists and only few ones don't post with clear agenda.

Oh pepe. You really do enjoy making a habit of embarrassing yourself. You just made a post saying development is overrated, then you quote a post that debunks that notion, and you follow up with ‘Amen!’.

And furthering the irony is that the section you’ve bolded describes you exactly. Game after game you complain about our raw or developing talents. You never acknowledge their improvements.

Your whole MO is to jump around making outrageous and unfounded statements and once you find yourself cornered you change the argument entirely. You never present opinions through rationalised reasoning, you just dump hot takes and some empty stats to support it. You are the equivalent of a Trump twitter supporter, or a breitbart article. You deserve to have your BS called out because the board doesn’t need that much inflammatory, ill-informed crap on the board.

And the crow you’re after? Considering it took Vuc until he was 27 to put up allstar numbers, I’d say most of our young prospects or former young prospects still have time to improve their games. Unless, they don’t deserve the patience of allowing them to reach their prime? In which case - again, you’ve missed the point of development. (And before you bring the ridiculous hyperbole of ‘oh so you’re saying [insert player] will be an allstar by 27? [insert pathetic gif]’, no, that’s not the assumption. It’s the hope, but not an expectation.

I feel sorry for you, you literally went through whole forum to find something come up with since you got busted so badly in Bamba debate about playing time.
Hug a mom. Take a deep breath. This is your highlight of a day.

LMAO! What debate are you even talking about? There was no debate. Just you’re inability to understand the difference between “a handful of 20/10” games and a “20 point average”. That was what you tried to poke fun at, and when you realised how wrong you were you tried to shift the attention to another point I wasn’t even trying to push. Are you that delusional that you’ve convinced yourself we were having a debate about some other topic? Holy Jesus, get some help bro.

[pepe1991]

Oh pepe. You really do enjoy making a habit of embarrassing yourself. You just made a post saying development is overrated, then you quote a post that debunks that notion, and you follow up with ‘Amen!’.

And furthering the irony is that the section you’ve bolded describes you exactly. Game after game you complain about our raw or developing talents. You never acknowledge their improvements.

Your whole MO is to jump around making outrageous and unfounded statements and once you find yourself cornered you change the argument entirely. You never present opinions through rationalised reasoning, you just dump hot takes and some empty stats to support it. You are the equivalent of a Trump twitter supporter, or a breitbart article. You deserve to have your BS called out because the board doesn’t need that much inflammatory, ill-informed crap on the board.

And the crow you’re after? Considering it took Vuc until he was 27 to put up allstar numbers, I’d say most of our young prospects or former young prospects still have time to improve their games. Unless, they don’t deserve the patience of allowing them to reach their prime? In which case - again, you’ve missed the point of development. (And before you bring the ridiculous hyperbole of ‘oh so you’re saying [insert player] will be an allstar by 27? [insert pathetic gif]’, no, that’s not the assumption. It’s the hope, but not an expectation.

I feel sorry for you, you literally went through whole forum to find something come up with since you got busted so badly in Bamba debate about playing time.
Hug a mom. Take a deep breath. This is your highlight of a day.

LMAO! What debate are you even talking about? There was no debate. Just you’re inability to understand the difference between “a handful of 20/10” games and a “20 point average”. That was what you tried to poke fun at, and when you realised how wrong you were you tried to shift the attention to another point I wasn’t even trying to push. Are you that delusional that you’ve convinced yourself we were having a debate about some other topic? Holy Jesus, get some help bro.

You have some serious mental issues buddy, no suprise your name is bad man. Get into some anger menagment program. Maybe it's not too late :*

[Nemesis21]

The 6 people that voted A or B need to pass whatever it is they are smoking.

I voted B. I am happy with our player development right now under Clifford and his staff.

Well the thread title is a little misleading. Grading based on this season, yeah in the B range. Grading this decade rebuild, definitely in the D, F range.

[NotACat]

I don't think development is overrated. every person in every profession gets affected by the people around them, and grow or stagnate as an individual in result of it. claiming situation and circumstance has no bearing on success, and achievements are just the result of a person's inner strength or whatever would be pretty dumb. why would basketball be any exception?

the thing is; letting young players play to their hearts contents with unlimited minutes has nothing to do with any of it. never has been. everybody loves to throw blame around easily when Isaac gets repeatedly injured in his rookie season, but they also can't bear to witness him growing with controlled minutes. people were screaming about giving gordon all the usage so that he would develop. we all witnessed him crash and burn second half of last year, and being untethered doing nothing for his growth. then this year we saw clifford giving him well defined role in offense, and he is a maturing his game better than ever. so I would say the most ironic thing about this all, the people screaming about how our development sucks are almost exactly the same people who can not be bothered to suffer through it. it annoys me to no end people seeing our salvation in giving bamba 30 minutes a game can still be a thing after all this.

anyway, I think the most underrated failed moment of our rebuild is the rejection we got from millsap. that was back when we had accumulated all of our best assets. we only needed a mature, skilled, accomplished player with work ethic that our young guys would respect, and have him show them how to be professionals. that could be the moment when all the stress of forced growth expected from our youth and franchise as a whole would vanish and we could see a group of great players get better at their own pace for years to come.

instead we got the whiny bitch ibaka who was complaining about his touches on a team with 3 MVP level players. my god, I hate everything that happened in those 2 vogel years.

edit: and just literally minutes after this, it's reported that bamba gets injured with a stress fracture

I'm still not over us not keeping Jameer and having him show all the young guys we were bringing a professional attitude and what to love about Orlando. We could've had him retire as a member of the Magic, would've been great.

[StanMagic]

A big fat FAIL ! It comes down to a dysfunctional roster and management unknown direction. Starting from Oladipo whom the coach experimented dangling between a PG and SG, he wasn't assigned to a defined role. Now with Bamba who they drafted knowing we already have a logjam at the front court. It makes sense if they trade away Vuc to give him playing time, yet they stand pat on trade so it significantly hinder Bamba's minutes behind a all star performance in Vuc.

I can go on with the list including Harris, Fournier who were asked to do something that are not supposed to that resulted to both poor player development and bad team result

[Catledge]

If we are referring strictly to the Cliff era, I think you have to give him a pretty high grade. Lots of people were exclusively focused on what he could do for Isaac and Bamba. Instead he developed Vooch into an allstar and Gordon into a much more complete player than lots of people thought he could be, with a clear path for further growth going forward. If popular wisdom had had its way, Gordon would have been developed as a Faried/Bah-a-Moute type.

If you add to that the growth we've started to see in Isaac, Briscoe, and Iwundu in recent weeks, that makes me hopeful about what Cliff can do with Bamba and Fultz. They will obviously be limited by their talent, work rate, and health, but Cliff seems to have shown that he knows how to put guys into positions to be successful within their abilities, and he has shown that he can find the right balance between pushing a young guy while not alienating him.

Now, if you want to trash Skiles and JV, I'm not going to argue with that. But I think Cliff has been dramatically better.

[Knightro]

The grade really depends on who/what time frame you’re talking about.

Since the Stan/Dwight era ended, player development overall has been pretty poor.

But... player development has definitely ticked up under Clifford and his staff.

Guys like Iwundu, Birch, Briscoe are developing their games pretty nicely off the bench. Vucevic is obviously playing the best ball of his career. Isaac is showing improvement. Gordon seems to have embraced a more defined and structured role. Ross is having the best year of his career too.

The only guy who really has regressed under Clifford is Fournier (and Simmons, but he battled injuries and is obviously now gone).

[drsd]

Markelle Fultz will test the question of this thread.

[drsd]

The 6 people that voted A or B need to pass whatever it is they are smoking.

The two A's are shocking given the injuries that have occurred to all of the Magic's last years.
Trainer support cannot be seen as a positive.

Bamba: missing time right now
Isaac: huge time missed
Hezonja: healthy
Gordon: huge time missed
Payton: huge time missed
Oladipo: huge time missed
Nicholson: ummm

[VFX]

The 6 people that voted A or B need to pass whatever it is they are smoking.

The two A's are shocking given the injuries that have occurred to all of the Magic's last years.
Trainer support cannot be seen as a positive.

Bamba: missing time right now
Isaac: huge time missed
Hezonja: healthy
Gordon: huge time missed
Payton: huge time missed
Oladipo: huge time missed
Nicholson: ummm

I just assumed this poll would be since the Hennigan hiring. How can we gauge player development from one season of Clifford?

Going from this list, I’m going to say the only players that can be accurately judged is AG and EP. The rest were either lacking in talent, traded, or still too raw.

AG has been fine. He’s progressed enough as he’s matured. How much can I say is connected to player development? Who knows. It probably hasn’t helped he’s been with numerous coaching staffs and plays in the slowest have court offense in the league, given his skillset.

Obviously huge mistakes were made in a lot of these draft selections and player management. This organization does a remarkable job at putting rookies through the ringer and in the worst possible situations to succeed.

[yoyojw17]

based on the look of the team from the beginning of the year till now....A. this team on this last stretch has looked great! Even the Iwundu haterz are at a loss for words! lol

[drsd]

PBO Weltmann gave an interview stating that player development and training must be grown internally. Thus, he is more focussed on his staff's views of Fultz than on Fultz' agent and team.

..