Regular Season Game 79: New York Knicks (15-62) at Orlando Magic (38-40)

[BadHombre]

Thank god for Vuc and Ross... we get blown out without them leading their respective units tonight. Season trend, really. The struggle of some of their teammates is a preview of next season if we don't re-sign both.

Eh, that's not a certainty. AG and Fournier both played large chunks of time with that 2nd unit, and that 2nd unit was potent. Vuc was giving up as many points as he was putting up. His defense was weak. Thankfully he was still hitting shots as reliably as he has been all season though.

It is certain lol. AG, DJ and JI were awful against the starters. First 8 minutes of the 1st qtr they combined for 2 total pts. Last 8.5 minutes of the 2nd qtr they combined for 2 total points. First 7.5 minutes of the 3rd quarter AG and JI combined for 2 total points. JI was so bad he got benched the entire 4th qtr. They weren't good on defense either. It would be nice if we could have played the whole game against undrafted third stringer Kornet, 3rd stringer Ellenson, 3rd stringer Jenkins and freshly signed g-leaguer Garrett, but that's not how it works. If you can't perform against starters you're toast. Fortunately Vuc came up huge to balance things out for the first unit.

Considering that Gordon and Fournier are the only two starters in the positive in +/-, and they split minutes with both the starting lineup and the bench, it paints a pretty clear picture that Vuc's 'huge' numbers were pretty empty. He (and DJ) crushed the energy of those lineups.

I consider that game more of an exception, though, as Vuc truly has been carrying the team most of the rest of the season. His effort has dipped recently though.

I'm just saying that if you take Vuc off the team, the team will find a new way to replace those points. And what you might lose in his efficiency, might be made up in hustle points. I've lost track of how many 2nd chance opportunities Birch, Iwundu and MCW have picked up for us just by crashing the boards.

[OrlandO]

Eh, that's not a certainty. AG and Fournier both played large chunks of time with that 2nd unit, and that 2nd unit was potent. Vuc was giving up as many points as he was putting up. His defense was weak. Thankfully he was still hitting shots as reliably as he has been all season though.

It is certain lol. AG, DJ and JI were awful against the starters. First 8 minutes of the 1st qtr they combined for 2 total pts. Last 8.5 minutes of the 2nd qtr they combined for 2 total points. First 7.5 minutes of the 3rd quarter AG and JI combined for 2 total points. JI was so bad he got benched the entire 4th qtr. They weren't good on defense either. It would be nice if we could have played the whole game against undrafted third stringer Kornet, 3rd stringer Ellenson, 3rd stringer Jenkins and freshly signed g-leaguer Garrett, but that's not how it works. If you can't perform against starters you're toast. Fortunately Vuc came up huge to balance things out for the first unit.

Considering that Gordon and Fournier are the only two starters in the positive in +/-, and they split minutes with both the starting lineup and the bench, it paints a pretty clear picture that Vuc's 'huge' numbers were pretty empty. He (and DJ) crushed the energy of those lineups.

I consider that game more of an exception, though, as Vuc truly has been carrying the team most of the rest of the season. His effort has dipped recently though.

I'm just saying that if you take Vuc off the team, the team will find a new way to replace those points. And what you might lose in his efficiency, might be made up in hustle points. I've lost track of how many 2nd chance opportunities Birch, Iwundu and MCW have picked up for us just by crashing the boards.

You just proved you don't understand plus/minus by totally ignoring how poorly three(!) of his teammates were playing against starters. And no, this team won't be replacing his production or impact any time soon... if we let him go or he walks we will be tanking by default. It's a damn shame he continues to be underappreciated in an all-star year.

[BadHombre]

It is certain lol. AG, DJ and JI were awful against the starters. First 8 minutes of the 1st qtr they combined for 2 total pts. Last 8.5 minutes of the 2nd qtr they combined for 2 total points. First 7.5 minutes of the 3rd quarter AG and JI combined for 2 total points. JI was so bad he got benched the entire 4th qtr. They weren't good on defense either. It would be nice if we could have played the whole game against undrafted third stringer Kornet, 3rd stringer Ellenson, 3rd stringer Jenkins and freshly signed g-leaguer Garrett, but that's not how it works. If you can't perform against starters you're toast. Fortunately Vuc came up huge to balance things out for the first unit.

Considering that Gordon and Fournier are the only two starters in the positive in +/-, and they split minutes with both the starting lineup and the bench, it paints a pretty clear picture that Vuc's 'huge' numbers were pretty empty. He (and DJ) crushed the energy of those lineups.

I consider that game more of an exception, though, as Vuc truly has been carrying the team most of the rest of the season. His effort has dipped recently though.

I'm just saying that if you take Vuc off the team, the team will find a new way to replace those points. And what you might lose in his efficiency, might be made up in hustle points. I've lost track of how many 2nd chance opportunities Birch, Iwundu and MCW have picked up for us just by crashing the boards.

You just proved you don't understand plus/minus by totally ignoring how poorly three(!) of his teammates were playing against starters. And no, this team won't be replacing his production or impact any time soon... if we let him go or he walks we will be tanking by default. It's a damn shame he continues to be underappreciated in an all-star year.

The team was 4 points worse than the opposition when Vuc was on the court. 11 points worse when DJ was on the court. Isaac had a terrible game and Hezonja scored all over him, but Vuc is also the C who anchors the defense closest to the rim - how much impact was he making there?

And those NY players were only starters by name. The only legitimate starting calibre player amongst them was Robinson - and he went 6-9 against Vuc's porous defense.

And consider this - MCW shot 1-5, sharing the court with AG and Fournier as well as Iwundu, Ross and Birch - yet MCW was still a +26 for the night. All of those guys were positives for the night. But somehow DJ's 2-6 scoring tanked Vuc's night? Or could it have been that Vuc wasn't doing enough to stop buckets being scored on us when he was in that could've made the difference? Hmmmm...

Vuc gets respect when he plays hard. But when he's in a contract year and the team is fighting for a playoff birth and he's showing empty offense only games like he has in seasons past, well that's just not gonna cut it, nor be worthy of praise.

And yeah, Vuc's impact could easily be replaced. Just because it's all we know, doesn't mean it's the only thing that works.

[pepe1991]

In first game vs Celtics in ECF Lebron had +/- of - 32.
Using +/- based on one game is as absurdly as it gets.

That's why we have things like real plus minus (Real Plus Minus (RPM) is the player’s average impact in terms of net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions ),

Nikola Vučević in RPM is ranked 8th in nba with RPM 5,36, to comparison, Lebron is 7th with 5,46.

Second highest ranked Magic player by RPM is DJ Augustin, ranked 74th (1,43), than Gordon ranked 84th (1,24).
Nobody else cracks top 100 with Birch being closest to that.
Ross is ranke 163.
Fournier is 168.
isaac 180.

Iwundu 13 worst. Hezonja 6th worst.

[Knightro]

This such a good post.

But its not extremely difficult to envision. The Clippers made a similar move this year. They greatly approved this year but traded their best player (Harris) knowing keeping him in the off season would not make them contenders. The Magic should take the same steps with Vuc.

I don’t think that’s an apples to apples comparison.

The major difference between what the Clippers did and what I can’t envision the Magic doing is the Clippers 100% believe they are one of the main free agency destinations this upcoming offseason.

We’ll see if they end up being correct, but the Clippers absolutely expect to end up signing at least one and probably multiple max free agents.

Orlando isn’t a free agency destination like Los Angeles is and even if it was, letting Vucevic and Ross walk away wouldn’t even free up one max contract slot.

It’s fine to trade away a guy like Harris at the deadline when you’re highly confident you’ll be able to sign a better player like Leonard four months later.

The Magic MIGHT be able to better position themselves for the future letting Vucevic and Ross walk, but it would unequivocally come at the cost of a major step backwards in immediately near term.

Some people are totally ok with that fact. I don’t think the front office is.

[Audi]

In first game vs Celtics in ECF Lebron had +/- of - 32.
Using +/- based on one game is as absurdly as it gets.

That's why we have things like real plus minus (Real Plus Minus (RPM) is the player’s average impact in terms of net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions ),

Nikola Vučević in RPM is ranked 8th in nba with RPM 5,36, to comparison, Lebron is 7th with 5,46.

Second highest ranked Magic player by RPM is DJ Augustin, ranked 74th (1,43), than Gordon ranked 84th (1,24).
Nobody else cracks top 100 with Birch being closest to that.
Ross is ranke 163.
Fournier is 168.
isaac 180.

Iwundu 13 worst. Hezonja 6th worst.

Well said pepe (even though I’m not a huge fan of +/- and RPM to start)

[pepe1991]

In first game vs Celtics in ECF Lebron had +/- of - 32.
Using +/- based on one game is as absurdly as it gets.

That's why we have things like real plus minus (Real Plus Minus (RPM) is the player’s average impact in terms of net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions ),

Nikola Vučević in RPM is ranked 8th in nba with RPM 5,36, to comparison, Lebron is 7th with 5,46.

Second highest ranked Magic player by RPM is DJ Augustin, ranked 74th (1,43), than Gordon ranked 84th (1,24).
Nobody else cracks top 100 with Birch being closest to that.
Ross is ranke 163.
Fournier is 168.
isaac 180.

Iwundu 13 worst. Hezonja 6th worst.

Well said pepe (even though I’m not a huge fan of +/- and RPM to start)

tnx man